Smuggler Archive
Thread: My take on the whole BH/Jedi/Smuggler thing-- And my suggestion to the Devs
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CapnKate
Sat May 21, 2005 8:13 am
#1
Okay, i posted this in yimaz's thread, but decided to repost it on its own as a possible solution to all this mess. Perhaps, Wes, it might be worth offering to the Devs. I dunno. But here it is.
We can be nice as we want, even those of the Jedi that are willing to "compromise" want to put us in an untenable position. Either they want it rendered useless(make it so LD can't take the target down below 10% health? Ridiculous), or moved to the master box where Novices can't make use of a great special when they're the most likely to need it(and frankly, just how much of the profession can you shove in that box? i know we always wanted something in the master box before CU, but sheesh). Frankly, the whole Jedi community is lopsided. These people don't seem to understand that they're supposed to be *worried* about being hunted, not out to pwn BHs. A win for a Jedi is the BH *not* winning. Period. Us Smugglers that want us on BH terms understand this, but there seems to be an uber-dewd mindset going on. And that's just not right. Now, i realize they need to alter things so the BH has an "easier" time not-winning... like "If the Jedi eludes you for X hours while online and not in a private house, you fail and can't get the mission again for a while", but it doesn't invalidate the basic points, which are...
1. Jedi should be interested in running from, not fighting, BHs.
2. It should be possible to do so.
3. BH terminals are the risk portion of the Jedi risk/reward. The Reward is BEING A JEDI.
4. BHs need a risk portion of risk/reward. Currently, it's money and bragging rights, or nothing. Not equitable.
This is much how I feel about Smuggler Bounties, and I summed it up on that topic recently, too. Here's what I'd do if I were the Devs:
1. If a Jedi and the BH are both online while the BH has the Jedi's mission, the BH has a time limit in which to kill the Jedi. Time the Jedi spends in certain classic places, such as inside their house, does not count towards this.
2. If the BH fails the mission, they can't take it again for a while.
3. For each BH with their mission that meets the criteria for #1, the Jedi's vis lowers over time. Using powers still generates vis during this time as normal. This consttutes a reward for the Jedi's successful evasion-- as the BHs "lose" their target, the Jedi's "in hiding" status gradually re-establishes itself.
4. Any BH that repeatedly fails missions eventually ends up on the terminals themselves(rather like Smuggler "vis").
And we do the same with Smuggler bounties. I think this would basically remove the problems on all sides. BHs get a more intereting hunt, Jedi of any level stand a chance of "winning" and increased survival, and there's no reason for them not to leave OUR specials the heck alone.
We can be nice as we want, even those of the Jedi that are willing to "compromise" want to put us in an untenable position. Either they want it rendered useless(make it so LD can't take the target down below 10% health? Ridiculous), or moved to the master box where Novices can't make use of a great special when they're the most likely to need it(and frankly, just how much of the profession can you shove in that box? i know we always wanted something in the master box before CU, but sheesh). Frankly, the whole Jedi community is lopsided. These people don't seem to understand that they're supposed to be *worried* about being hunted, not out to pwn BHs. A win for a Jedi is the BH *not* winning. Period. Us Smugglers that want us on BH terms understand this, but there seems to be an uber-dewd mindset going on. And that's just not right. Now, i realize they need to alter things so the BH has an "easier" time not-winning... like "If the Jedi eludes you for X hours while online and not in a private house, you fail and can't get the mission again for a while", but it doesn't invalidate the basic points, which are...
1. Jedi should be interested in running from, not fighting, BHs.
2. It should be possible to do so.
3. BH terminals are the risk portion of the Jedi risk/reward. The Reward is BEING A JEDI.
4. BHs need a risk portion of risk/reward. Currently, it's money and bragging rights, or nothing. Not equitable.
This is much how I feel about Smuggler Bounties, and I summed it up on that topic recently, too. Here's what I'd do if I were the Devs:
1. If a Jedi and the BH are both online while the BH has the Jedi's mission, the BH has a time limit in which to kill the Jedi. Time the Jedi spends in certain classic places, such as inside their house, does not count towards this.
2. If the BH fails the mission, they can't take it again for a while.
3. For each BH with their mission that meets the criteria for #1, the Jedi's vis lowers over time. Using powers still generates vis during this time as normal. This consttutes a reward for the Jedi's successful evasion-- as the BHs "lose" their target, the Jedi's "in hiding" status gradually re-establishes itself.
4. Any BH that repeatedly fails missions eventually ends up on the terminals themselves(rather like Smuggler "vis").
And we do the same with Smuggler bounties. I think this would basically remove the problems on all sides. BHs get a more intereting hunt, Jedi of any level stand a chance of "winning" and increased survival, and there's no reason for them not to leave OUR specials the heck alone.
yimaz
Sat May 21, 2005 8:19 am
#2
What the Dev's really should do is this:
Written by Saber X
The best way to approach what I have in mind is with a blank slate and with reference to the movies for guidance on what the dynamics of PvP in Star Wars Galaxies should resemeble. The fundamental conflict of the movies is not between BH and Jedi's, it is between Sith and Jedi's. BH's currently fulfill the functional role of the Sith in the movies without the corresponding training or investment in time.
Therefore, rather then having a mechanic of BH's hunting Jedi there should be a mechanic of Sith hunting Jedi. This is similar, I believe, to what was originally envisioned for Jedi in the game but never implemented. What is required for this to work is for Jedi and Sith to represent two force enabled branches with two separate pathways for reaching force sensitivity. Players interested in becoming Jedi would continue to go to Aurelia, but new content corresponding to the dark side of the force and a separate series ofFS boxes would be enabled for players who are lured by the dark side. Players who are training as either Sith or Jedi may hunt each other if they acquire the proper skills (perhaps a force skill that enables the character to detect a disturbance in the force), although they may only select as targets players who are of equal CL. Not to leave BH's out of the Jedi hunting fun, Sith might be able to have BH's group with them to track Jedi whereas Jedi might group with smugglers to let them escape via a spaceport. If both Sith and Jedi players are master pilots they might be able to engage in space battles as well.
Not to minimize the BH profession I think it would be very compelling to have BH's take bounties on smugglers.This would coincide with what occurred in the Star Wars movies. Smugglers need some love too- After all, two of the most important characters in the Star Wars storyline, were smugglers. Smugglers and BH's should have a few innate combat skills but with an emphasis on getting a corresponding combat prof. Smuggler mods might favor pistoleer or brawler for instancewhereas BH's might have a carbine orriflefriendly template. The two professions should be balanced with one another and equally powerful. The nemesis of the smuggler should be the BH, as Greedo and Boba Fett were. As suggested above, providing both players are master pilots, space battles could be enabled with options for boarding, ditching cargo, and so forth. Smuggler "visibility" might be generated in a variety of ways, such as failing smuggling missions, losing too much standing with a faction such as the Hutts, and so forth. The advantage of being a smugglermight be improved and innovative space combat skills, the ability toslice starship equipment, the ability to "smuggle" players in combat off a planet, and so on. BH's would have an emphasis a slight advantage on ground combat and be able to track players. Once again, I think these professions could mesh with those of Jedi and Sith in order to add extra dimensions to the gameplay with Sith using BH's and Jedi employing smugglers for various tasks both combat and non-combat related.
I'd also like to suggest two otherenhancements to put the "Wars" back into Star Wars. First, in addressing the legitimate concern of players who don't want this game be overrun with Jedi I think other force enabled and conflict paired professions that are equally difficult to attain but as powerful as the Jedi class could be introduced. This would inject diversity into these uber-elite classes and permit players to go beyond the current elite professions without having to become a Jedi. As I suggested in another post, both the Dathomir Witches and TKM come to mind for being the basis of more advanced game templates, each with a corresponding "pathway" like Aurelia to become enabled to advance in the higher level skill trees. And second, I think it is important to get the GCW back on the ball and mesh it with these side conflicts. To that end, the faction ranks should have some combat value when fighting members of opposing factions and when using faction armor, weapons, bases, or (hopefully someday) vehicles.
In any case, I wanted to share these thoughts with those who are interested in the hope of making the game more compelling and getting out of the bad vibe that currently exists between BH's and Jedi players.
It fits the time line (kinda) and balances combat with out balancing (i.e. nerfing) anyone.
Message Edited by yimaz on 05-21-2005 11:19 AM
Tanks
Sat May 21, 2005 8:59 am
#3
CapnKate wrote:
This is much how I feel about Smuggler Bounties, and I summed it up on that topic recently, too. Here's what I'd do if I were the Devs:
1. If a Jedi and the BH are both online while the BH has the Jedi's mission, the BH has a time limit in which to kill the Jedi. Time the Jedi spends in certain classic places, such as inside their house, does not count towards this. I have seen Jedi to log off in POIs,lakes etc., in order to escape BHs the moment they see a blue DoT. I have tracked down a particular mark that was doing this for two days before I got him. Time limits would not enable a BH to roleplay a Bounty Hunter going after his quarry.
2. If the BH fails the mission, they can't take it again for a while. This would force a lot of BHs to take on low level Padawans, so disagree.
3. For each BH with their mission that meets the criteria for #1, the Jedi's vis lowers over time. Using powers still generates vis during this time as normal. This consttutes a reward for the Jedi's successful evasion-- as the BHs "lose" their target, the Jedi's "in hiding" status gradually re-establishes itself. Jedi already have alts, guild mates take their missions to limit their exposure. See the thread about a Jedi that has FIVE accounts that he had respeced to BH so he could grind without fear of BHs on the Jedi forums. So, disagree.
4. Any BH that repeatedly fails missions eventually ends up on the terminals themselves(rather like Smuggler "vis"). Same argument as item 2.
And we do the same with Smuggler bounties. I think this would basically remove the problems on all sides. BHs get a more intereting hunt, Jedi of any level stand a chance of "winning" and increased survival, and there's no reason for them not to leave OUR specials the heck alone. There will not be any smuggler bounties per devs any time in the near future if at all.
riotcontrol
Sat May 21, 2005 9:10 am
#4
Tanks wrote:
There will not be any smuggler bounties per devs any time in the near future if at all.
How "official" is that? Can both you and Wes firmly confirm this as the "official" Dev stance (either seen in the Corr. forum or in whichever way it was communicated to you)? Because... well, that might be one of the very rare things keeping quite an amount of people still here.
WesBelden
Sat May 21, 2005 9:22 am
#5
Thanks for commenting Tanks, I appreciate it 
.
.However, I think the real issue here is not the method of implementation, but rather the ethos of the Jedi/BH system and how it affects other professions.
As CapnKate suggests and as was originally planned, Jedi gaining a bounty was supposed to be a threat, something they wouldn't want and the eventual confrontation should be something to be feared, or at least treated with the respect it deserves due to the real possibility of losing.
Now, from my own observations and seemingly from CapnKate's aswell, this simply isn't the case. For the most part, I've observed that Jedi players are of the mindset that victory should be assured and that clever tactics and skills (note: there's a very distinct difference between those and exploiting ) aren't something they should need to employ in order to win a fight. Of course that's my own interpretation and doesn't cover all Jedi.
A while ago Feign Death was perceived as being misused by both communities and was indeed a problem within the system; it seems that yet another ability from a seperate profession is causing upset.
I have to wonder then whether this is a symptom of the "We should be winning" mindset that many Jedi seem to have (somewhat ironic given that the latest films with Jedi in them show one of their greatest failings to be their pride and arrogance, but that's just my sense of humour and interpretation
), or if the problem is indeed a great unbalance with the combat abilities themselves. I honestly don't know which it is and would love for someone to come up with the deffinitive answer; my own opinion is perhaps a little of both.Anyone any comments on this?
WesBelden
Sat May 21, 2005 9:26 am
#6
The only talk I've heard from a developer on player bounties is that it's not being included with the Smuggler Experience update because it's important to get the system implemented right first, meaning that more can be built upon it at a later date. Now that could mean we might see a PvP BH system not too long afterwards, or it might be years before we see it, if ever. It's really open to interpretation and I suspect that's how the devs want to leave it until they decide otherwise.
riotcontrol wrote:
How "official" is that? Can both you and Wes firmly confirm this as the "official" Dev stance (either seen in the Corr. forum or in whichever way it was communicated to you)? Because... well, that might be one of the very rare things keeping quite an amount of people still here.
djlowballer
Sat May 21, 2005 10:27 am
#7
SO if there are no player bounties, then we just get another minigame to play? No real threat? Another faction added to the list of millions where if i anger I just go and kill a million of the opposition and its all gravy?
The whole Bounty thing was keeping me hyped about the game. Now its years off...if ever?
If this is the case, this game truely is Jedi galaxies and Ill be off soon enough. Which is sad because a great game is being dragged down because everyone cares about stupid glowstick monks.
thanks A-team
The whole Bounty thing was keeping me hyped about the game. Now its years off...if ever?
If this is the case, this game truely is Jedi galaxies and Ill be off soon enough. Which is sad because a great game is being dragged down because everyone cares about stupid glowstick monks.
thanks A-team
WesBelden
Sat May 21, 2005 11:57 am
#8
If it's me you're paraphrasing, you're doing so out of context. We don't know when it'll happen, it's simply not been talked about.. but then we don't know when they'll do the Ranger revamp, or the SL revamp, or revisit Entertainers etc.
djlowballer wrote:
The whole Bounty thing was keeping me hyped about the game. Now its years off...if ever?
Uninformed
Sat May 21, 2005 5:53 pm
#9
WesBelden wrote:
If it's me you're paraphrasing, you're doing so out of context. We don't know when it'll happen, it's simply not been talked about.. but then we don't know when they'll do the Ranger revamp, or the SL revamp, or revisit Entertainers etc.
djlowballer wrote:
The whole Bounty thing was keeping me hyped about the game. Now its years off...if ever?
It is my understanding that the Developers said at the last breakfast that they won't be implementing the BH system against Smugglers at all because they did not want to upset the Smuggler player base. Which of course explains why they are keeping it in place against Jedi . . .rollseyes.
dlc3007
Sat May 21, 2005 7:36 pm
#10
The best suggestion that I can come up with, and I make this as a perfectly serious suggestion, is to segregate the BH and jedi as much as possible. Once someone starts down either of these paths, they no longer can use other profession's skills. They also need to have their own version of of GCW that they can participate in against each other while leaving other professions alone. Once BH and jedi can no longer interfere with other professions, then the game will become enjoyable again.
Raanan
Sat May 21, 2005 8:07 pm
#11
Know what I'm going to do since my toon is force sensitive? I'm going to become a jedi as much as I can while keeping smuggler then cry for nerfs on jedi stuff 
lol
lol
Tanks
Sat May 21, 2005 10:52 pm
#12
This is NOT a class based game. You have 250 skill points to use, which is enough for 2.5 professions. Also, BH by themselves are not self reliant in skills like Jedi, we have to pick up other professions to complete our template. I don't see Smugglers stopping at just smuggler, you are Smuggler/Pistoleer or Smuggler/TKA or Smuggler/Whatever.
dlc3007 wrote:
The best suggestion that I can come up with, and I make this as a perfectly serious suggestion, is to segregate the BH and jedi as much as possible. Once someone starts down either of these paths, they no longer can use other profession's skills.
Spiderhammer
Sat May 21, 2005 11:04 pm
#13
I'm not sure why we are pushing(well some of us anyway) for player bounties on smugglers... I only have to look at the utter disaster for much of the game that the jedi bh thing seems to be... just my take
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