Smuggler Archive
Thread: Underworld Discussion Thread
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WesBelden
Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:30 pm
#1
Recently in a post addressing SWG’s forum community’s responses and thoughts to an earlier message, SOETyrant stated that,
Adding to the underworld is not part of our near term plans, and probably is a candidate for a future expansion given it's scope. Sorry!
Given we’re in some what of a state of limbo with regards to information and things to do constructively and creatively with regards to game design and features, I (spurred by Calyin
) thought it would be nice for us as a community to take a look at the possibilities a future Underworld expansion could bring.
However, rather than create a detailed expansion proposal/design document, I’m interested in us coming up with 10 basic tenets from which a design team could build an Underworld expansion document. Caylin’s
Crime Lord proposal and Ternque01’s Fuller Star Wars Underworld threads come to mind as examples of posts exploring the subject so far. From these you could take several ‘design tenets’ for the underworld:
Crime Lord proposal and Ternque01’s Fuller Star Wars Underworld threads come to mind as examples of posts exploring the subject so far. From these you could take several ‘design tenets’ for the underworld:
- Player run and independent crime factions,
- Create more content for each criminal faction currently in game (e.g. theme parks etc.),
- Include Criminal territories as or either in cities.
And so on. So, if you’ve a mind to, post your ten tenets (mwaha) on Underworld design and then get debating
Qojan
Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:40 pm
#2
I think the easiest(?) would be a underworld faction system. With quests, rank, perks, and lootwith smugglers able to have the ability to have both underworld faction as well as our GCW faction.
If the crime lord susgestion doesent fly
Message Edited by Qojan on 01-07-2005 05:42 PM
NickHeel
Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:02 pm
#3
This is gonna be a good thread 
Only thing I can think of is working for Jabba full time. Landing at his palace and taking missions from him. Or just being idle somewhere and getting an sub-space comm from him across the galaxy for an immediate shipment. Things like that.
I'd also like to plug my Detailed Proposal for the Kessel Run involving the Pit and the Maw 
JediArashi
Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:17 pm
#4
Great idea Wes (or Caylin :smileysurprised
!!
Some of my tenets would include:
- a risk/consequence structure
This has obviously been discussed several times in regards to bounties, criminal faction, etc. To feel like your a part of an Underworld there must be the feel of being in an Underworld. A threshold for that must be taking risks and having the full awareness of what the consequences are of that risk. A guideline NOT to follow is the current Imperial Crackdown.
- an intricate crimelord faction system
Another that has been talked about numerous times. There must be different routes for different members of the Underworld to take that would create a subculture that could be classified as a whole to be an Underworld. Without a dynamic push and pull, conflict and resolution the whole thing will feel static. A guideline NOT to follow is the current GCW. (I hadn't meant to continue the guideline NOT to follow thing...but it seemed to fit! :smileyvery-happy
- more active NPC involvement
We need to see that there is an Underworld, and not just have to find it ourselves. Seeing a slicer get caught at a bank terminal too long by a CorSec squad and watch them get chased through parts of the city would do wonders for an Underworld feel. (note, theis is just an example of many small things that could add flavor to an Underowrld) A guideline NOT to follow is the current inaction of NPC's within NPC cities. (there I go again!)
-places that members of the Underworld can call their own
We should either be able to create our own "smokey cantinas" or have some super secret places only members of the Underworld can go. Think, those elite Nightclubs or gambling parlors you see in movies where there's a nondescript door with a peephole you have to give a password to.
A guideline NOT to follow is Jabba's Palace (with every Tom, Di-ck, and Harry running around doing goofy things, and veing able to stand there in front of Jabba yelling at him, but not actually being able to interact if you haven't worked your way up the gang)
- a ladder structure that denotes rank and benefit
Hey, if I've successfully smuggled cargo for some crimelord 10 times successfully with no problems I should be in good standing and reap some reward of being in good standing. I'd like to be able to know where I stand within my "faction" and have that mean something. On the flip side, rival "factions" should be able to recognize my standing a little too, and either show some respect or try to show me up/ rub me out. A guideline NOT to follow is the current rank system for Rebel/Imperial.
- more ambiance!
Lets face it, the Mos Eisley cantina (though the best of them) is not what it feels like in A New Hope. There are more NPC's, but the "feel" of the place isn't the same. It just feels like all the other cantinas with more NPC's. I'd like to see that darker, smokey, be able to hide in the corner type of environment that would ferment Underworld like behavior. Even Mos Eisley should have more NPC's (as much of a strain on lag this would be) to really feel like a full of life cantina. In all the EU novels, and in ANH and AoTC we see full cantinas with lots of people doing lots of things...we need that flavor in our cantinas!
Well, that's all I can think of for now. Oh, and I've moved to the fence on my "guideline NOT to follow" in regards to Jabba's Palace....it is a great place in comparison to all the others even remotely like it. It follows my tenets the best in game currently, though there is plenty of room for improvement.
Message Edited by JediArashi on 01-07-2005 09:35 PM
Message Edited by JediArashi on 01-07-2005 09:36 PM
Ternque01
Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:21 pm
#5
Oh wow! Thanks for quoting my post Wes!!! /bow
This isgreat thread. I think the key to making a successful underworld would be to capture the essence of what it was in the movies. Characters were forced to make deals with criminals in order to survive. Qui-Gon had to deal with Watto (well.. he's a scumbag at least). Luke, Han, and Leia had to deal with Jabba. They also had to deal with Lando. Hell, Luke and Obi-wan had to use Han. I think that players should depend on criminals to play.
I'm not suggesting that a player HAS to depend on them in an everyday economic sense beyond the spice and illegal weapons they get from smugglers. I think if quests were designed to include dependence on underworld characters, it would come a long way. For example, SOE could develop "adventure quests" where a player or a group could choose to put themselves into a situation they had to get out of. For instance, this group might go to Endor and take one such mission. Let's say that the mission describes that they are stranded on Endor because their spaceship broke down or because they are falsely wanted by the authorities on suspicion of a local crime and prevented from planetary travel. (They could leave the quest at anytime by talking to an NPC) These players might have to go through a cool storyline where they have to make a special deal with local thugs or criminals in order to get them to provide these players with evidence that proves their innocence. Perhaps they have to haggle with unscrupulous characters for a ship part that they need (like Episode I).
Dynamic things in Star Wars always occur with shady people. Han, Jabba, Watto, Lando, etc. These are special moments, and so would be good to be included in quests.
I also think to develop the Underworld, you need to make the Overworld tougher too. Increase the security in NPC cities. Give those Corsec, Fed-dub, etc. some HAM. Give them some weapons that hurt! Allow them to scan for contraband. Make the Stormtroopers in cities TOUGH. Bring back the NOVA troopers. I think that the Overworld in SWG is far too weak to make any kind of Underworld believable.
What also turns me off about thugs is how you can basically one-shot them. If you put NPC criminals in cities, that required high skilled players to take out, then maybe players might get the sense that the underworld really is dangerous, and that it really does exist in a way that affects their lives.
I know this might be controversial, but maybe have criminal NPCs rob people of credits... meh...
In conclusion, if you made it so players had to deal with criminals in order to survive (during quests or in everyday life) and beefed up both the strengths of overworld and underworld NPCs, you would have a more believable universe.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 01-09-2005 01:06 PM
Durinthiam
Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:30 pm
#7
Qojan wrote:I think the easiest(?) would be a underworld faction system. With quests, rank, perks, and loot with smugglers able to have the ability to have both underworld faction as well as our GCW faction.If the crime lord susgestion doesent flyMessage Edited by Qojan on 01-07-2005 05:42 PM
This would be the best thing to add IMO. The way it could be entered in is via a type of "enclave" as it were, an area that only smugglers can enter into (and can do better Underworld Faction quests, further into this "enclave" as they progress up the Underworld tree) to join the faction
Nicolas_Frost
Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:18 am
#8
And the underworld enclave could simply be a hiddenarea in say, Jabba's Palace, Nym's Fortress, the Lucky Despot, or other such place.
riotcontrol
Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:23 am
#9
Nicolas_Frost wrote:And the underworld enclave could simply be a hidden area in say, Jabba's Palace, Nym's Fortress, the Lucky Despot, or other such place.
Or better yet, in all such places, to cover the three biggest possible Underworld factions - Hutt, Valarian and Nym. Speaking of which - are there any other 'factions' you'd like to see as proper playable factions in some kind of an Underworld revamp?
Nicolas_Frost
Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:27 am
#10
How about joining police forces(CorSec, RSF, Fed-Dub)? This could be an incentive for those who don't wanna be criminals help to try to take us criminals out.
SBRD0C
Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:39 am
#11
I would like for there to be an Underworld.
The Hutt faction is a starter. It would be a GREAT addition to the Game. I would not join it; however, I see it as something the game is missing completely, as well as other Underworld factions.. though obviously Jabba is the BMOC (or BSOC anyway..) at this point in the story so his faction would probly have the upperhand vs other underworld crime bosses.
Player Factions/Crime Organizations:
wouldn't it be great... if you and your Smuggler/BH buds could get together and create your own criminal organization? It would follow the same guidelines as a Hutt or Nym Faction, except that it would have a cap set on number of members (need to keep it small lest the authority catch on to what your doing). The "Base" would have its own smuggling 'terminals' (OR NPCs that give cargo to be smuggled)(skimming would also be possible as per GreenMarine's thread) and possibly BH terminals where the Ranking member(s) of the Organization can place bountys on smugglers of opposing Crime Organizations. We cannot ask to force PvP so obviously not everyone is an open target unless they do a specific act against your CO which they know would place them in danger of retribution(such as skimming from your CO, or specific missions involving piracy from other COs or Taking a bounty on one of your CO's Members).
*EDIT* Also would like to note that one would not have to be a member of a CO in order to take missions from one. the Leaders of athe CO would earn a small percentage each time a smuggling mission were completed from thier Organisation, and would likewise pay the bounties that they issue once they are completed. */endEdit*
BH/Smuggler Interaction is another big step. Both proffesions exist in the fringe of Society, they ARE the underworld and should know each other, rely on each other sometimes andunder certaincircumstancesshould know best how to hunt/evade the other.
This should be reflected in Smugglers having skills that would assist BHs, by giving them info about thier target. And also skills that would assist a fugitive by Altering Information, smuggling him past checkpoints, or even removing him from the terminals altogether.
BHs being part of the underworl themselves should know about thier fair share of dirty tricks... which is to say that they are more likely to recognize when they are being used against him in combat situations. He isless prone to panic(resistance to Panic Shot) and is allways as certain as he can be that his mark is actually dead(TIERED ability to recognize/counter FD)*BEFORE YOU FLAME THIS RECOGNIZE THAT I WOULD INSIST THAT FD ACTUALLY MAKE ONE APPEAR DEAD, AND ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO FAIL IN ITS OWN RIGHT BASED ON YOUR SKILL! BEFORE ANY SUCH ABILITY WAS INSTALLED* Of course the BH would not have any more resistance to Low Blow or Last Ditch as anyone else. Damage is damage after all.
Note on FD: I know that bit about a counter won't be popular.. but if you think this is an issue now when BHs are hunting Jedi who have just enough smuggler to abuse the ability... just think how big an Issue it would be if BHs were hunting smugglers all of whom would have this ability... I'm fairly certain that there are still alot more smugglers than jedi(for now at least
), it would be a very big mess.
Anyhow just a few of my thoughts on Underworld. Just one more thing in Passing... ADD SABACC!!!
Thank you.
Message Edited by SBRD0C on 01-08-2005 01:51 AM
Zandergeef
Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:23 am
#12
This should have to do with the fact that we are smugglers and pirates. Not the harr shiver me timbers pirates but rather the you old pirate.. the star wars law bender.
Something to do with breaking the law. Hutt faction, smuggler alliance faction.. whatever the case this is where the smuggling should happen in my opinion... make it like the investigation tree of BH... only with smuggling and othe criminal acts.
Orcajum
Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:38 am
#13
Two words: Turf wars.
I think the criminal organizations should have territories they vie for, and that the actions of members of the differert syndicates should effect the borders of those territories. Thus, smugglers wouldn't just be moving goods for their own organization, or contracted out to the Alliance or Imperials, they should also be needed to smuggle goods in and out of rival Syndicates' territories.
Changing storylines should effect the relationships between the various Criminal Organizations, much like Cries of Alderaan. If the Hutts and Nym are closely alligned, then perhaps Valarians and others should be trying to interdict their activities. If, during that time, Valarians succeed in one way or another, the bond between Nym and Hutts might break, power might shift.
I'd love to see other neutral players (non-BH or Smuggler Neutrals) have a desire to join some of the crime syndicates. If a group of Valarians has tight control of a section of Naboo, for example, all commerce in that area should pay a "protection fee" to the Valarians, and Valarian alligned Pistoleers, TKMs, etc may go on shake-down missions. (don't know how to create this w/o force PvP, but there must be a way.)
I'd love to see an overlay on the mapscreen that showed how strong each group had a presence in different sections of a planet. How if the Nyms had such a tight control of an area, even the Empire would be forced to deal through Nym alligned players. I'd love to be part of an upstart Valarian gang trying to build a foothold on Lok, expanding territorial control somehow.
I want to work for Nym, have a Rebel player contract me to move merchandise from Nym controled area, pass it off to a Hutt-alligned smuggler (if Hutts and Nyms are tight) and work with him to move those goods through Hutt and Imp turf. But in doing so, we'd both have to declare Over status (Nym and Hutt) and fight or stealth our way around any Valarians. I want to have a meeting of the Five Families on a particular planet and act as consiglieri or something.
I think the criminal organizations should have territories they vie for, and that the actions of members of the differert syndicates should effect the borders of those territories. Thus, smugglers wouldn't just be moving goods for their own organization, or contracted out to the Alliance or Imperials, they should also be needed to smuggle goods in and out of rival Syndicates' territories.
Changing storylines should effect the relationships between the various Criminal Organizations, much like Cries of Alderaan. If the Hutts and Nym are closely alligned, then perhaps Valarians and others should be trying to interdict their activities. If, during that time, Valarians succeed in one way or another, the bond between Nym and Hutts might break, power might shift.
I'd love to see other neutral players (non-BH or Smuggler Neutrals) have a desire to join some of the crime syndicates. If a group of Valarians has tight control of a section of Naboo, for example, all commerce in that area should pay a "protection fee" to the Valarians, and Valarian alligned Pistoleers, TKMs, etc may go on shake-down missions. (don't know how to create this w/o force PvP, but there must be a way.)
I'd love to see an overlay on the mapscreen that showed how strong each group had a presence in different sections of a planet. How if the Nyms had such a tight control of an area, even the Empire would be forced to deal through Nym alligned players. I'd love to be part of an upstart Valarian gang trying to build a foothold on Lok, expanding territorial control somehow.
I want to work for Nym, have a Rebel player contract me to move merchandise from Nym controled area, pass it off to a Hutt-alligned smuggler (if Hutts and Nyms are tight) and work with him to move those goods through Hutt and Imp turf. But in doing so, we'd both have to declare Over status (Nym and Hutt) and fight or stealth our way around any Valarians. I want to have a meeting of the Five Families on a particular planet and act as consiglieri or something.
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