Smuggler Archive
Thread: A Decidedly Unpopular Opinion
Page 1 of 5
Nicolas_Frost
Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:59 am
#1
Nounverber wrote:
To the hundreds of people who read those threads, comments like that makethe Smuggler community look like nothing more than a group of spoiled children, and it only gets worse for anyone who happens to wander into the Smuggler forums.
Spoiled children? How can we be spoiled children when we never get anything? We're more like the angry sixteen year-oldkid who gets smacked around by his drunk step-father.
Message Edited by Nicolas_Frost on 11-19-2004 04:00 AM
SmugglinZane
Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:15 am
#2
I don't want to flame you... well yeah I do... seriously though, I have one HUGE problem with your statement. In no way shape or form can we, or whatever revamp we get be compared with Jedi. Every other profession revamp was not as taxing as the Jedi revamp. Go back and look at the dev cycle on those.
Go back and look at the time from concept to implementation, and then take a look at ours and you'll see why people post the way they do around here.
I would like to see the core of the game fixed, even if it means waiting a little longer for our revamp. I fully support the CU coming first even though our stuff was supposed to have been at least started on long ago (which would mean it probably could have been finished earlier too), but what exactly is so broken about the loot system. Yeah, it would be nice to add some more stuff to the game, but you know what I saw with the last loot addition? More macroers killing meatlumps for the loot.
One final note on all of this. The threads that are being posted, besides the ones for humor, tend to fall into4 categories these days. What someone would like to see in a revamp. Someone leaving the game (and we actually do care in this forum). Someone pointing out yet another slight in some way or another (please go back and read the History of the Smuggler thread, and then think about how many things are not on there). And last but not least, we have the we want some damn communication threads.
There is something justifiably wrong with the fact that professions that have already been revamped or have not even enter their "development" cycle yet recieve more dev's posting about changes/additions/fixes to their profession when we receive zero confirmation on our status, the status of bugs that we were told would not make it into live, and bugs that we've been told would be fixed right away.
So maybe I had more than one problem. I do not intend offense with this, just want to explain my position in response to yours.
Thanks,
Zane
Frolykk
Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:12 am
#3
Nounverber wrote:
So please, Devs, don't spend another moment trying to revamp the Smuggler profession. Instead, make the game a better place for all, and in the process include the Smuggler profession as part of a greater whole.
Thank you. You may now flame as you see fit.
A very good point, it something that should have been done a year ago.
My guess is that after we see the combat update, we will see more profession revamps before we see a smuggler revamp.
SOE needs to get the priorities right, alot of professions are being ignored, smuggler isn't the profession that needs the most attention, but it is the profession that has needed it for the longest.
fishbrains
Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:38 am
#4
A robust smuggling system with actuall illegal items and consequences is actually good for everyone not just smugglers by creating an immersive SW feel.
TomoRainer
Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:59 am
#5
Nicolas is dead on with his analogy.
Children we may be, but in order to be spoiled, we have to have first been given something. Ever. EVER!!!!!!! Er sorry, channeling some 16-month smuggler suppressed rage.
I have actually found the playerbase's opinion of us to be the exact opposite: the times non-smugglers drop by and post about us, they almost unanimously agree that we've suffered a long time, mostly in silence, and deserve much more. The only profession I can think of that's worse off than us is the Squad Leader, the poor SOBs. DE's have it rough, too, but at least they've gotten some nice business with JTL. And CHs.. well, at least they were great once.
Yes, the combat balance should come first, but it is scheduled before us, so all is well. They've been promising us a revamp since September of last year. Between then and now, plenty of other professions have seen revisions, from the minor to the total. When our turn rolls around, I won't feel guilty taking development time that could be spent elsewhere. We've waited long enough.
Children we may be, but in order to be spoiled, we have to have first been given something. Ever. EVER!!!!!!! Er sorry, channeling some 16-month smuggler suppressed rage.
I have actually found the playerbase's opinion of us to be the exact opposite: the times non-smugglers drop by and post about us, they almost unanimously agree that we've suffered a long time, mostly in silence, and deserve much more. The only profession I can think of that's worse off than us is the Squad Leader, the poor SOBs. DE's have it rough, too, but at least they've gotten some nice business with JTL. And CHs.. well, at least they were great once.
Yes, the combat balance should come first, but it is scheduled before us, so all is well. They've been promising us a revamp since September of last year. Between then and now, plenty of other professions have seen revisions, from the minor to the total. When our turn rolls around, I won't feel guilty taking development time that could be spent elsewhere. We've waited long enough.
Gooney
Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:15 am
#6
I agree in principle with everything you have said except the analogy. This particular forum is one of the least hate filled in the game. People that are playing smugglers seem to be a different type of player than the average combat type. Very few if any of us are min/maxers.
The gripes that show up on this forum are for the most part very valid. I happen to believe that doing the CU should be the #1 priority, I think it now, thought it 6 months ago. In my mind the Jedi revamps were a colossal mistake, not the revamps themselves but the belief that jedi should take precidence over every other aspect of the game.
Once CU does hit, Jedi will again have to be revamped, and because it is such a trademark profession you can bet that it will take place before any other profession. Which will mean that we will wait longer.
Im not sure how I feel about that, I am getting sorely tired of waiting. I dearly hope that we start seeing some info about CU soon, within the next couple days. I as a long time player/subscriber feel like I need to start seeing some results.
-Gooney
FenrirL0S
Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:49 am
#7
Have you ever stopped to the Talus space station, with the npc proposing you to smuggle some stuff on a crypted channel and then teling you that he couldn't give you the task due to imperial pressure? I bet that the imp. pressure will vanish with the revamp.
Smuggling missions, flying in dangerous area just to take around the items they gave to you, and all the things that lie beyond the mere slicing: that's what the revamp would mean for us.
Sincerely I can't desire to utterly sacrify our profession for superior interests.
In my opinion now that jtl is out it's time to give us some real taste of the smuggler profession.
Smuggling missions, flying in dangerous area just to take around the items they gave to you, and all the things that lie beyond the mere slicing: that's what the revamp would mean for us.
Sincerely I can't desire to utterly sacrify our profession for superior interests.
In my opinion now that jtl is out it's time to give us some real taste of the smuggler profession.
rogue_eight
Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:18 am
#8
Again, some valid points, but I would have to ask if there is anything that you are not happy with in the profession that relates to the way you play?
Is there something that has been crippled by a subsequent publish?
Is there something that you wish could and should have been different from the moment the game was launched?
If you've answered yes to any of these then you're in the same boat as everyone else.
People hear the word 'revamp' and it sounds like such a massive undertaking - like we need a complete overhaul of the profession. While it's true that there are some serious fundamental problems with the profession, there are also problems that have been created since the game launched that were never there to begin with - I'm thinking autopulling, spices and panic shot here.
Now I'd wager that there would be many smugglers who are becoming more and more vocal about the profession that would be mollified to quite an extent if some or all of these were rectified as a stop-gap measure.
As many people have said, the ire of the community stems from the fact that, apart from the jawa junk thing, smugglers have received NOTHING positive from any publish since launch.
Nor have we received much in the way of acknowledgement from the devs.
I agree that it must be infuriating to a lot of people to see the constant appearance of the smuggler question in seemingly every thread, but that's not 'cos we're whining or spoilt. We're paying customers who have and are being sold faulty goods.
We're passionate about the profession and the game as a whole, and see it for what it truly could be.
Noone denies that there are plenty of game-breaking issues out there that affect the whole game and that the larger of them such as the CU should be addressed first.
We are, however, aware that everything affects everyone in the game. For instance, the autopull issue forced many smugglers to up their slicing prices. Something small that should be easily fixed that has an affect on the larger community.
In essence I think we're all frustrated because the things that do get attention seem trivial (imperial hats anyone? Like this was keeping anyone up at night!) or are just done badly - autopulling, spices, the CH stuff, the Kessel PVP in JTL.
So, back to my original point (for those of you that are still with me) We're all very much in the same boat - no matter how we like to play the game, I'd wager that there are things that we would all like to see changed.
Is there something that has been crippled by a subsequent publish?
Is there something that you wish could and should have been different from the moment the game was launched?
If you've answered yes to any of these then you're in the same boat as everyone else.
People hear the word 'revamp' and it sounds like such a massive undertaking - like we need a complete overhaul of the profession. While it's true that there are some serious fundamental problems with the profession, there are also problems that have been created since the game launched that were never there to begin with - I'm thinking autopulling, spices and panic shot here.
Now I'd wager that there would be many smugglers who are becoming more and more vocal about the profession that would be mollified to quite an extent if some or all of these were rectified as a stop-gap measure.
As many people have said, the ire of the community stems from the fact that, apart from the jawa junk thing, smugglers have received NOTHING positive from any publish since launch.
Nor have we received much in the way of acknowledgement from the devs.
I agree that it must be infuriating to a lot of people to see the constant appearance of the smuggler question in seemingly every thread, but that's not 'cos we're whining or spoilt. We're paying customers who have and are being sold faulty goods.
We're passionate about the profession and the game as a whole, and see it for what it truly could be.
Noone denies that there are plenty of game-breaking issues out there that affect the whole game and that the larger of them such as the CU should be addressed first.
We are, however, aware that everything affects everyone in the game. For instance, the autopull issue forced many smugglers to up their slicing prices. Something small that should be easily fixed that has an affect on the larger community.
In essence I think we're all frustrated because the things that do get attention seem trivial (imperial hats anyone? Like this was keeping anyone up at night!) or are just done badly - autopulling, spices, the CH stuff, the Kessel PVP in JTL.
So, back to my original point (for those of you that are still with me) We're all very much in the same boat - no matter how we like to play the game, I'd wager that there are things that we would all like to see changed.
kgmkiorys
Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:39 am
#9
There is one point that i CANNOT let you say, you can't compare jedis to smugglers, and you can't compare their revamps to our.
Let's see the common points first, and then we'll see the differences :
Jedis and smugglers are 2 out of the 3 starwars iconic professions. (BH being the third).
Jedis and smugglers could be hunted by BH.
That's all for common.
Jedis have been added into game after launch, and then worked, shaped, polished, then it was decided that the way it was the game was no fun (remember the hologrinding and all those afk macroers?), so it was once again tweaked.
Then they got revamped and relooked at, and bugs were fixed and anything they can say, or even think has become Evangile. Which has lead to having 2 consequences : jedi must be the most played profession in the game, and jedis must be the most hated profession in the game.
In the meanwhile, and some weeks before the jedi rush began, we were already considered as a profession that needed some love (infact we were the most needing), and we got bs (arr sorry, jawa trading), and then, nerf, nerf, ignorance, lies and broken promises. I fail to see where we are in the same case than jedis.
About the need of a revamp, its prioritization and the core system, what you got here is :
The combat upgrade taking place first, because combat is a core system, because combat affects everyone. And this is a good way to proceed.
The smuggler revamp (as long as other professions like rangers, squad leaders, creature handlers and so) coming here to add content to everybody. As you mentionned, you earn your living slicing cheap, that means you certainly do lots of slicing, for lots of people. Revamping smuggler will affect you, and every single people you're in business with. That's a core system, that has effects on the majority of people since people use weapons and armors and may be willing to use spices if they become competitive. Contraband, illegality and smuggling are core systems, they apply to everyone, not only to smugglers. We will have abilities that people will ask for, and we won't have those said abilities dispatched to any ranked officer or pilot who pretends to deliver some cargo.
For all these reasons, i do believe that you want the revamp, but still don't know you do.
Chavabegga
Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:16 am
#10
I agree with you on some points. There needs to be an overall big picture looked before anything else is done with the game. Dev focus has been off a significant number of times. And its not necessarily their fault. Marketing told executives Jedi would sell more games, executives told the Devs to work on Jedi.
The Combat Upgrade needs to be done and I welcome it. The loot system I am mixed on. Granted it does affect almost everyone, this games focus was not suppose to be about "loot". The loot system does need some work in that the crap needs to be cleared out, all that broken stuff and CDEF weapons that just take up database space. And some of the reports from TC sound cool. But my line of thinking has always been, why not just let crafters make them? Because they wouldn't be special. So what? While fighters may feel special displaying something they looted, crafters do not feel special making something a few times and then never being able to again.
But that has nothing to do with the opinion about smugglers and our revamp. I have not been a smuggler since launch. I got in a few months before the supposed May revamp. I heard it was broken but then saw some of the proposed changes and thought that would be cool. Once I started it I realized I loved it. I even gave up the hologrind(after 3 professions, really got into it like everyone didn't I?) so I could stay a smuggler. Then I added TKM and loved that as well.
But the revamp never came. Things were only broken, not fixed.
Yes it is important to look at the overall game. It is also important to be as good as your word. Promising new things and fixes but only delivering delays and breaking things is just not right no matter how you look at it. Sure, the overall game things are more important, like the combat upgrade. But there were many things that gone done that were not necessary.
While many people enjoy some of the Warren, Corvette, Geo Caves, and DeathWatch they did not need to be added BEFORE everything originally in the game was working properly. They were added because there is a segment of online game players who constantly flux between games if there is not new stuff added all the time. Jedi were done to try and hold this crowd. Why else was the Jedi profession fixed before the path to Jedi was fixed? The overall game killing problem and the one EVERYONE complained about was the hologrinding. Yet the Jedi profession was improved BEFORE hologrinding was removed.
People who play smugglers are the crowd who is not going to switch to another game. Some may get discouraged and quit, some may just not want to pay anymore. But we are not leaving for another game nor are we leaving in large numbers. Which is why the Devs are never allowed to work on improving us. We are not going anywhere so their attention is directed to stop other people from leaving.
While this makes business sense, its just plain wrong. What's even worse is that things got broken. These things probably were not on purpose but they have not been fixed. Not getting attention in the form of a revamp is one thing. Not getting attention in the form of fixing things that have been broken is another.
So if the Devs attention would focus on overall game play things that were designed to increase the Star Wars in the game or make the game more roleplay friendly or run more smoothly I could support a delay revamp. Delays for things like dungeons and things that cater to the "uber l33t doodz"(I hate those words) do not count.
And focus on overall game things should not mean we do not even get what has been broken fixed. When you break something, fix it and we would not be so upset about not getting revamp.
Yes I got a little carried away. But, eh.
The Combat Upgrade needs to be done and I welcome it. The loot system I am mixed on. Granted it does affect almost everyone, this games focus was not suppose to be about "loot". The loot system does need some work in that the crap needs to be cleared out, all that broken stuff and CDEF weapons that just take up database space. And some of the reports from TC sound cool. But my line of thinking has always been, why not just let crafters make them? Because they wouldn't be special. So what? While fighters may feel special displaying something they looted, crafters do not feel special making something a few times and then never being able to again.
But that has nothing to do with the opinion about smugglers and our revamp. I have not been a smuggler since launch. I got in a few months before the supposed May revamp. I heard it was broken but then saw some of the proposed changes and thought that would be cool. Once I started it I realized I loved it. I even gave up the hologrind(after 3 professions, really got into it like everyone didn't I?) so I could stay a smuggler. Then I added TKM and loved that as well.
But the revamp never came. Things were only broken, not fixed.
Yes it is important to look at the overall game. It is also important to be as good as your word. Promising new things and fixes but only delivering delays and breaking things is just not right no matter how you look at it. Sure, the overall game things are more important, like the combat upgrade. But there were many things that gone done that were not necessary.
While many people enjoy some of the Warren, Corvette, Geo Caves, and DeathWatch they did not need to be added BEFORE everything originally in the game was working properly. They were added because there is a segment of online game players who constantly flux between games if there is not new stuff added all the time. Jedi were done to try and hold this crowd. Why else was the Jedi profession fixed before the path to Jedi was fixed? The overall game killing problem and the one EVERYONE complained about was the hologrinding. Yet the Jedi profession was improved BEFORE hologrinding was removed.
People who play smugglers are the crowd who is not going to switch to another game. Some may get discouraged and quit, some may just not want to pay anymore. But we are not leaving for another game nor are we leaving in large numbers. Which is why the Devs are never allowed to work on improving us. We are not going anywhere so their attention is directed to stop other people from leaving.
While this makes business sense, its just plain wrong. What's even worse is that things got broken. These things probably were not on purpose but they have not been fixed. Not getting attention in the form of a revamp is one thing. Not getting attention in the form of fixing things that have been broken is another.
So if the Devs attention would focus on overall game play things that were designed to increase the Star Wars in the game or make the game more roleplay friendly or run more smoothly I could support a delay revamp. Delays for things like dungeons and things that cater to the "uber l33t doodz"(I hate those words) do not count.
And focus on overall game things should not mean we do not even get what has been broken fixed. When you break something, fix it and we would not be so upset about not getting revamp.
Yes I got a little carried away. But, eh.
yimaz
Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:27 am
#11
Nounverber wrote:
My character is a Master Smuggler. It was the reason I created him when the Tempest server went live, and he has been a Master Smuggler for almost a year now. - is this your main toon?
I charge 100 credits per % on slicing. Always have, and the tip money by FAR outweighs anything I would have made by charging higher prices.
I play the character as a rogue and a scoundrel. Han Solo is my hero. Oh and by the way, he shot first. - yes he did!
What I am not is a thief. Nor do I want to be a pirate. Swashbuckling silver-tongued merchant, sure, but not a pirate.
I do not want a Smuggler revamp. -
Now that you've cleaned off whatever you just spit on your monitor, let me say that again. I do not want a Smuggler revamp. Let me tell you why.
Look at the love the Jedi got. Then look at the love the Jedi got again. Then look at how neglected the rest of the game was as a result. Rather than address core issues that affected every player, they wasted months of development resources on trying to get Jedi right, only to have the Jedi community still complaining. - this is a valid point, just understand that the smuggler profession has never be able to do what its name says, smuggle.
Imagine now how much better the game would have been, as a whole, had SOE focused instead on combat, or loot, or making player or NPC cities better places to interact with others. They could have improved systems that touched nearly all facets of the game, thereby makingthe game a better place for everybody. And now that JTL is released, and Jedi are past their second change, there are signs that the devs are starting to do just that. Yet every new thread with news of every new improvement is spoiled within minutes by the same old song: - thing to remember is this game was launched broken, everything you have mentioned should have been set up when the game went live.
"Fix Smuggler."
To the hundreds of people who read those threads, comments like that makethe Smuggler community look like nothing more than a group of spoiled children, and it only gets worse for anyone who happens to wander into the Smuggler forums. Petitions, complaints, and long-winded talk of magic elixers overwhelm the senses. - please understand we have been told by the dev's for 17 months that any day now we would have a revamp and this community has been more then understanding and more then patient, if you were following this forom for the last 17 months you would have seen that, also we are in no way like the jedis we have just hit a breaking point and not because we want a revamp now its because we were told atlaunch we needed a revamp and not they dont even communicate with us about it.Don't get me wrong, Ienjoy my Smuggler character, but I wonder how many people - new players to the game, perhaps -get turned off when they come looking for info. I know I sure do, and to be honest if I ever did give up Smuggler, it would be out of disgust for how I see the community acting toward SOE. - dude really if you look at other threads we are a tight community who always helps new players when they ask questions and again we if you were lied to for 17 months you cant tell me you would not be mad, its not the way we treat SOE its the way they have treated us, just read the history of smuggler as told by the dev's, its there own words! and tell me you would not be mad.
So please, Devs, don't spend another moment trying to revamp the Smuggler profession. Instead, make the game a better place for all, and in the process include the Smuggler profession as part of a greater whole. - thats all we ever wanted but a revamp is needed. You have to understand for some smuggler is not a 2nd toon it the first one and the profession as a great deal of potential, we are only wanting to improve on and have SOE follow threw on a commitment they made to us a long long time ago.
Thank you. You may now flame as you see fit. - no, i respect you opinion I just dont agree. Yes for sure CU should be fixed and for sure GSW is a mess and yes loot needs to be worked on. No one here is trying to force a revamp now, we simply want info on what is going on be have earned that right and payed for that right. They revamped chef and ID before smuggler and told us from day one we needed the most love, they have nerfed us with no explanation, they have put us to work on revamp docs and never followed threw, they told us they would communicate with us and after 3 days stoped. The list goes on and on...it seems your new to the forums and i again see where your comming from but understand it goes far deeper then "its not fair we want a revamp".
Durinthiam
Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:49 am
#12
This is actually an adult approach towards the situation, I totally agree with the statements made, however rather than not give us any love at all to make way for combat/loot, just make it #1 priority AFTER the combat and loot revamps and just give us our own pilot profession, fix the bugs and generally love us more than jedi for 6 months 
Message Edited by Durinthiam on 11-19-2004 02:51 PM
Shrendyc
Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:27 am
#13
I understand what the original poster is saying - overall, though, we've been a very tight community and have been exceedingly patient and understanding when its come to us getting relocated in the priority lists again and again and again and again and...
We were unhappy about the panic shot hit we took, but we were mollified when we were told that the change would be made and then they would re-evaluate its impact on us. And as far as I know - that re-evaluation has never happened.
We suffered a change in how the spice downer acts. It came out of nowhere, with no warning, and when asked for a reason or explanation, our correspondent was told and then muzzled. We still don't know. Its been 6 months.
We discovered a change in how slicing works with autopulling on test center. We alerted the people at SOE and were told that the autopull issue being fixed was "a matter of time". It went live, and is STILL not repaired. That has been a month now (I believe).
Heap on top of that all the promises about a revamp, Greenmarine coming in here and starting some threads about our revamp and then not returning (which in my opinion is the cruelest cut of all because we truly got excited over that only to be crushed even more. It would have been better for all of us if he just didn't post anything), and the outright lies we've been hearing time and again over assorted issues, and what we have here is a situation where things are ripe for discontent.
Think about this - wookiees were mad about not being able to wear armor. They staged a noticed protest, and look what is in game now - wookiee armor. Now lets look at the smuggler community - we have suffered far more than the wookiees not having armor (which from a game fairness point was a big and serious issue), yet we stay calm for the most part and try to play within the rules, not trying to upset things and perform actions that will make us look bad. And it is getting us nowhere, apparently.
Think about this - what is "cool" about smuggler at the moment? What can we do that other players look at us and go "whoa - thats totally awesome!". Nothing. Yet I can stand and watch a TKM take down a rancor in no time - but I draw my pistol and get eaten alive. I see a Combat Medic hit someone with a poison in a duel and then dance all over the area as it ticks down their enemy, taking almost no time to incap them. In a duel, I die in 5 seconds. I make adrug that no one will buy, yet chefs make a bottle of booze that everyone wants. I have no control over the slicing that I do, and have to take grief from the "clients" if the random number generator isn't going my way that day. It's gotten to the point that I don't even want to slice my own gear, let alone anyone elses. And I can't make a decent living off of selling faction since I'm not a colonel and the GCW is borked anyway. So I have hunting to make money - but I better bring a friend, because anything harder than a durni could potentially be deadly. The one thing that can save us from certain death is feigning, and that skill can be gotten around by a Jedi power, not to mention both Jedi and Bounty Hunters are abusing it to the point that its going to get hit by the nerf bat, so scratch ONE MORE cool thing about our profession.
So why do I stay a smuggler? Because I see the potential in what this class could be. I see the limitless fun I could be having. I see the ability to do those really cool things smugglers should do - like smuggle for players, smuggle items into the economy via NPC missions, smuggle Jedi to a safe haven through blockades and past the very bounty hunters that look for them. It's there - we've talked about it, we've dreamed it, we've written up proposal after proposal about it which has served to whet the appetite for our vision. All we need is for someone in the position to build it to - well, take it up and make it happen. It can BE.
Instead, I stand at the starport waiting for a shuttle and I'm the only one holding a gun, as everyone else around me has a sword, a pike, or a vibroknuckler. I'm wearing a jacket while everyone else but the entertainers has on composite armor. Everyone talks about the elite nightsister lance so and so picked up the other day - but when was the last time you heard of a truly amazing FWG5 being dropped? Yet I stick through it all, because I can still see the potential, the amazing potential, that this profession could have.
I still havehope that after the CU hits that we will be on tap for some amazing stuff. I do fear that what we expect and hope for, and what we will really get, are 2 different things. And if my worst fears do come true, I honestly can't say if I will remain a smuggler let alone in the game. That will be a decision I will make when we see the "schedule", which has become cloudy since all they wish to talk about is the "here and now".
Oh well, enough of that stream of consciousness. Suffice it to say that I - like many others out there - are getting tired of paying the money each month just to see the profession we chose to play get damaged and ignored more and more.
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