Smuggler Archive
Thread: Protesters Listen
Page 1 of 2
DigiDante
Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:27 am
#1
All you people who are going around and protesting are not going to help with anything.
The Dev's have a FULL plate, it is their fault for releasing the game with so much stuff needed to be done prior to first expansion. The economy is shot and the heart of the game ( GCW ) need major attention.
Changing your house sign, a mass feign death or anything like that will not help at all, just frustrate the Dev's more. The more time the Dev's have to break to explain anything or be forced to work on something else will just delay us more. Protesting I see no positive outcome.
Pleas just be patient - If you want to protest... do so quietly, but don't rally for your cause on the forum..
All I see protesting doing is spliting the community more. We are a community remember. .
This forum use to be constructive and friendly, now it is alot of people bitching ( I understand why ) and protesters trying to gather people for their cause.
If you are upset about the revamp being pushed back... drop smuggler and pick up another profession. There is plenty time for you to pick smuggler up again prior to the revamp.
The best way to be heard I believe is if all you people who are upset just drop your profession... I love being a smuggler and will keep it until the end I hope, but I can always work on other characters on other servers until the revamp.
The Dev's have a FULL plate, it is their fault for releasing the game with so much stuff needed to be done prior to first expansion. The economy is shot and the heart of the game ( GCW ) need major attention.
Changing your house sign, a mass feign death or anything like that will not help at all, just frustrate the Dev's more. The more time the Dev's have to break to explain anything or be forced to work on something else will just delay us more. Protesting I see no positive outcome.
Pleas just be patient - If you want to protest... do so quietly, but don't rally for your cause on the forum..
All I see protesting doing is spliting the community more. We are a community remember. .
This forum use to be constructive and friendly, now it is alot of people bitching ( I understand why ) and protesters trying to gather people for their cause.
If you are upset about the revamp being pushed back... drop smuggler and pick up another profession. There is plenty time for you to pick smuggler up again prior to the revamp.
The best way to be heard I believe is if all you people who are upset just drop your profession... I love being a smuggler and will keep it until the end I hope, but I can always work on other characters on other servers until the revamp.
Message Edited by DigiDante on 06-08-2004 08:31 AM
yimaz
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:18 am
#2
it's true (now that ive had a few days to calm down) the dev's plan (while it sucks for our re-vamp) is sold, the GSW need to be fixed and combat really needs to be fixed. Jedi....well i have some Bounty Hunter friends to handle them...lol. Anyway at this point i just truly hope the dev's mean it this time and we will have a strong re-vamp in patch........ For now im going to enjoy all the other fun aspects of the game and look forward to the space expantion. We have a great communitywith alot of passion and the dev i hope at this point see that if they stiff us again we will place a bounty on them so high that they wont be able to hide in and civilized system.
Shrendyc
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:21 am
#3
Not flaming you, DigiDante, but I think we've been patient far too long. A lot of people are changing professions, as you suggested - but thats not getting the message across about poor customer service and being deceitful. More people are speaking with their wallet and are leaving the game altogether - which in my opinion is the best way to get SOE's attention. When they see the profitability of the game get compromised, they may come looking for the reason, and discover the mess the people representing them have made. Or they may still not care; it is a huge corporation and they tend to not give a rats tukus about people's feelings and expectations.
And for those that want to protest, let them. They've certainly had enough of the BS. Yes, the devs have a full plate, I completely agree. But if thats the case, they should be up front about their schedule and not string an entire profession full of people along until we've gotten to this point. Think about how much better things would be now if at some point in the past they did one thing to help us - like document our empty boxes. Or give us panic shot back. Or fix feign death. Or fix the new HAM issues with spices. Or give us one new spice per publish so our market share could slowly recover. Or add one more new unarmed dirty fighting special every other publish. We would certainly think a lot more of the powers that be if any of that happened, rather than this mess we have now, where all we have gotten is more and more broken.
Masal
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:25 am
#4
ok so we have all are signs changed to HIRE MORE DEVS then they can get the job done on shedule. Once its all caught up they can go back to a regular staff. But im still going with Smuggler Revamp Now. At least i can say something...
Ragnaat
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:41 am
#5
Um, not trying to start something DigiDante, but in one thread you say there is no reason to protest because the devs simply have no time in the schedule and in the thread sitting right next to it as I look in the thread listings I see a post by you proposing a mini-publish to hold us over 'till the revamp. Have you changed your mind on the subject in the last 2 days or am I mising something subtle?
Jandel-Har
Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:20 am
#6
I too have had to take a few days and calm myself , and I would have to agree with Selusa on this one,a mass protest wont get us anything any faster. It has already been said that we wont get our revamp until sometime after JTL. I would rather have the whole dev team working on JTL so it can be released on time ,and with as little bugs as possible. Taking even a few off of it to just give us a mini publish might result in bugs and whatnot to go unnoticed until after launch, and then be b!tched about at length on the forums.
Instead of just sitting there being mad (which I have done,alot) I decided to create a character on test center ,going to level him up to novice smuggler then wait until our revamp is ready and then I wil proceed to level up smuggler and make d@mn sure what they have put in for us is good and it works. Might I suggest others do the same,if they havent already.
Just please don't get to radical in your protest ideas, I know the squeeky wheel gets the grease,but they have already given us a time line and it dosent look like they are going to alter it. I know its going to be a hard wait ,but be patient, I think it will be worth the wait.(and I am the most the glass is half empty person I know)
AudioOrgana
Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:26 am
#7
DigiDante wrote:
The more time the Dev's have to break to explain anything or be forced to work on something else will just delay us more.
Although I agree that protests are just silly, this part just isn't true.
Yes, TH is on vacation this week, but it is his sole job to talk to us/relay information between players, Devs, and correspondents.
He and Q are "community managers" and have absolutely nothing to do with the coding or design development of the game directly (though I believe Q has updated text strings, like in the loading screens, at times).
This is not the first time they have waited for the pot to boil over before doing anything about it - it always seems like it's clean-up time around here, instead of preventing the messes in the first place. This needs to be addressed as well because the people responsible for it happening over and over in different mutations really need to understand how their action/communication, or lack thereof, has led directly to this unhealthy, unhappy situation we find ourselves at now.
For smugglers specificly, it is absolutely embarassing for them that they have yet to even finish typing the TEXT into the Smuggler Skill tree. They haven't even been bothered to type a line or two into a text string on the dang master box. It's unbelievable that it's been almost a year and there is so little pride taken by whomever is responsible to have such a simple, glaring error persist for so long.
While it's great to be optimistic for the future, do not discount those that have patiently waited up to a year to be let down like this. Protests/etc. are not the answer, but neither is being complacent. The answer is, we don't have the answer - only the Devs do. They are the only ones that can change this situation by giving us action, not promises of action some-day. A few fixes to Smuggler would keep a lot of people happy so they can take their time on whatever revamp they have on their minds - but if they don't I do not see any reason to believe that this round of design proposals is going to be any less of an exercise in futility than the previous incarnations have been.
AO
HOTDOG
Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:41 pm
#8
I agree with the original post that a protest would be the equivilant of a panic shot to the foot-
But I also see why they would want to protest.
The problem is: it's too late to protest in order to get a revamp. The schedule- while it CAN be changed- is set. And frankly the priorities are right.
Jedi are getting their revamp now because that affects THE MAJORITY of the player base (also known as "the customers").
The combat balance is next and that affects EVERYONE in game.
JTL follows because, as many of you are apt to mention in the heat of anger, "There are a LOT of MMORGs coming out and SWG will not be able to compete- I'm going to spend my money on WoW!" and that affects the WHOLE GAME.
It also makes sense that we would follow JTL if they are going to make REAL player smuggling (with ships) part of our revamp.
Now don't get me wrong- I STRONGLY feel there could/should be ground level smuggling-
and smuggler bounties
and picking slices
and personal weapons
and better spices
and a meaningful Underworld tree
and a better contrabrand system
and...you get the drift.
Personally, I don't want a couple of overworked Devs throwing a spice or two at the master box in their spare time. And I don't think you want that either.
I want a FULL BLOWN revamp- that we all work on collectively, so that we all have the freedom to play the type of smuggler we want-
whether it be:
the Han Solo type
the casino owning, crime boss type
the on the run from the law and BHs type-
the "spice" lord type-
the undercover spy type-
Or even the slice monkey type-
All of this IS possible but not with the obligations the staff has now- And who wants a revamp that the combat balance and the GCW might null and void anyway.
If you are going to protest- Protest for communication. Don't make all that fuss for a couple of spices and some slapped together documentation. We've come this far- they owe us- they know it- hang in there.
But I also see why they would want to protest.
The problem is: it's too late to protest in order to get a revamp. The schedule- while it CAN be changed- is set. And frankly the priorities are right.
Jedi are getting their revamp now because that affects THE MAJORITY of the player base (also known as "the customers").
The combat balance is next and that affects EVERYONE in game.
JTL follows because, as many of you are apt to mention in the heat of anger, "There are a LOT of MMORGs coming out and SWG will not be able to compete- I'm going to spend my money on WoW!" and that affects the WHOLE GAME.
It also makes sense that we would follow JTL if they are going to make REAL player smuggling (with ships) part of our revamp.
Now don't get me wrong- I STRONGLY feel there could/should be ground level smuggling-
and smuggler bounties
and picking slices
and personal weapons
and better spices
and a meaningful Underworld tree
and a better contrabrand system
and...you get the drift.
Personally, I don't want a couple of overworked Devs throwing a spice or two at the master box in their spare time. And I don't think you want that either.
I want a FULL BLOWN revamp- that we all work on collectively, so that we all have the freedom to play the type of smuggler we want-
whether it be:
the Han Solo type
the casino owning, crime boss type
the on the run from the law and BHs type-
the "spice" lord type-
the undercover spy type-
Or even the slice monkey type-
All of this IS possible but not with the obligations the staff has now- And who wants a revamp that the combat balance and the GCW might null and void anyway.
If you are going to protest- Protest for communication. Don't make all that fuss for a couple of spices and some slapped together documentation. We've come this far- they owe us- they know it- hang in there.
DigiDante
Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:28 pm
#9
Ragnaat wrote:
Um, not trying to start something DigiDante, but in one thread you say there is no reason to protest because the devs simply have no time in the schedule and in the thread sitting right next to it as I look in the thread listings I see a post by you proposing a mini-publish to hold us over 'till the revamp. Have you changed your mind on the subject in the last 2 days or am I mising something subtle?
Yes you're missing something.
If you would read my post you'd realize that everything in that post was already answered in other recent posts. Small fixes like adding text to a box is no work at all. Why bring this up unless you're trolling?
The rest of the post is not directed to anyone at all.
Some people just like to **edit**. There are alot of those people around and it ruins the game play for others.
I know my profession is broken. I am a master pistoleer, and master smuggler. Pistoleer is fubar, and smuggler is pretty useless. I know these things but I still play as a gun fighting smuggler. What my character lacks, I try to make up by doing what I do well. Good customer service, people skills, personal interaction. I try to enhance the gameplay for others.
If you're tired of playing a broken profession, go play something that isn't broken. I choose to play a broken profession, and I accept that my character is not perfect. I accept he has a flaw, just like you and me in real life. No one is perfect.
All you people who sit around and complain and pull for protests are just ruining the community. You're ruining my gameplay. Instead of saying you're going to quit... just go ahead and do so. Why try to ruin other peoples gameplay? Just do the honorable thing and leave.
SOE has a full plate with all the games they are working on. The dedicated few that work on SWG has a full plate just on fixing the game. Even though only 1/10 people are hologrinding, a good 3/4 of everyone wouldn't mind being a jedi. The core of the game is the GCW and the jedi. Jedi profession is really horrible at the moment and the economy is shot. If they leave the economy shot and leave the core elements of the game broken for much longer they will lose a lot more customers then the people quitting because other things are more important then us.
All the experience I have had with SOE CSR's and Dev's has been great. I love the guys, always willing to help and never rude.
About 8 months ago, I lost a medium generic "cantina" house that had 3 vendors, about 1 mil resources, and about 500k in decorations. 8 months ago, that was a good amount of possessions. Everything I worked for getting in the game disappeared due to a merchant bug. The CSR's explained to me what happened with my maintenance and insist that I had no discount when I did. I know what it is like to get screwed over, but I am still here, with a *edit*ing smile on my face. I almost quit, but becomming a smuggler and starting my guild kept me playing.
The only thing that makes me want to stop playing for a while are the idiots that run around complaining about everything.
I have been around since beta and have had my fair share of bugs in my lifetime. I installed the game knowing there were bugs, thats why I beta tested. I knew when they launched the game that it was no where near ready. They did alot of things they should have waited on, and now they are realizing just what they have done, instead of just letting it sit longer, they are addressing the core issues.
I see potential for this game, and come christmas a large amount of potential will surface. The game is young, you should know that.
But like I asked in the first post - please just stop with the complaints. We are a community, we need to act like one again.
I know alot of you have attitudes... and I understand why. When ever I get upset... I run to TC and grind my character. I have no one to bug me, and it is quiet and I get alot of work done.
There are other means of relieving frustration then to cry.
Jawa-Sith-Lord
Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:34 pm
#10
I would very much like to see our revamp as promised. But, I also see the priorities being the way they are. And, I begrudgingly agree.
The Jedi revamp absolutely has got to be put in place. It should have been done a long time ago. Hologrinding is quite possibly the absolute worst thing to have happened to this game. It needs to end and end now.
The combat rebalance is also instrumental in reintroducing a challenge to the game and is critical to the GCW. The GCW is supposed to be a critical element of the game and greatly affects immersion. But, it needs to have meaning to do so. Currently, it only affects bragging rights. In order for this game to come close to working, the GCW needs to mean something. That is true even for the neutrals as it affects this actually being a game set in the appropriate time frame rather than 2 rival gangs.
JTL is a monkey on the back of the Devs. Placed there not only by the $$ counting suits, but by themselves. You can tell by how they talk about it. It is currently draining away huge amounts of resources. The sooner it is complete, the sooner some of those resources become available for other things.
Hypothetically, if we were revamped before JTL, how long would it be before we started demanding a revamp for our space related abilities? Afterall, a smuggler should have some incredible abilities in space. They can't really revamp us before they finalize a product that has the potential to affect our class more than probably any other.
While I am upset with yet another broken promise, I partially blame us (me included) for it. We insisted on schedules and dates. When they have other priorities for the game as a whole, we might suffer in our small part of the game. And, JustG has been very upfront in his State of the Game Letters that the schedule could, and most likely would, change.
I don't see a problem with protests to show dissatisfaction. But, the danger will come in that if the protests go on for too long or get too bad, the Devs will point to the warnings they gave about schedule changes and decide we will complain no matter what they do. That is the first step to totally ignoring us. I have been a master since early September and I am actually considering dropping for the first time in a long while. I am building up my supply of containers and will run a factory load of clamps. I still have yet to solidly decide. But, I am thinking about it. The decision won't be done in protect. It will be done for me to pursue the professions I have been curious about but unable to do because I refused to drop smuggler.
After some thought on the subject, I think the best way for us to get a really good revamp is to try and keep the Devs engaged. That doesn't mean dropping our revamp, it means continuing to develop parts that seemed to interest them at Fan Fest. It means trying to find ways of balancing them with the larger game and identifying possible exploits and ways to prevent them.
But, one of the things I found far worse than another broken promise was an accusation I read from another smuggler that said those that did not agree with his way of dealing with it obviously don't care about the profession. I am glad folks feel passionate about our class. But, being insulting and generally rude (like he wanted) is not going to get you heard. It's going to get your message, no matter how justified, ignored. Being persistant and civil is far more likely to get results.
The Jedi revamp absolutely has got to be put in place. It should have been done a long time ago. Hologrinding is quite possibly the absolute worst thing to have happened to this game. It needs to end and end now.
The combat rebalance is also instrumental in reintroducing a challenge to the game and is critical to the GCW. The GCW is supposed to be a critical element of the game and greatly affects immersion. But, it needs to have meaning to do so. Currently, it only affects bragging rights. In order for this game to come close to working, the GCW needs to mean something. That is true even for the neutrals as it affects this actually being a game set in the appropriate time frame rather than 2 rival gangs.
JTL is a monkey on the back of the Devs. Placed there not only by the $$ counting suits, but by themselves. You can tell by how they talk about it. It is currently draining away huge amounts of resources. The sooner it is complete, the sooner some of those resources become available for other things.
Hypothetically, if we were revamped before JTL, how long would it be before we started demanding a revamp for our space related abilities? Afterall, a smuggler should have some incredible abilities in space. They can't really revamp us before they finalize a product that has the potential to affect our class more than probably any other.
While I am upset with yet another broken promise, I partially blame us (me included) for it. We insisted on schedules and dates. When they have other priorities for the game as a whole, we might suffer in our small part of the game. And, JustG has been very upfront in his State of the Game Letters that the schedule could, and most likely would, change.
I don't see a problem with protests to show dissatisfaction. But, the danger will come in that if the protests go on for too long or get too bad, the Devs will point to the warnings they gave about schedule changes and decide we will complain no matter what they do. That is the first step to totally ignoring us. I have been a master since early September and I am actually considering dropping for the first time in a long while. I am building up my supply of containers and will run a factory load of clamps. I still have yet to solidly decide. But, I am thinking about it. The decision won't be done in protect. It will be done for me to pursue the professions I have been curious about but unable to do because I refused to drop smuggler.
After some thought on the subject, I think the best way for us to get a really good revamp is to try and keep the Devs engaged. That doesn't mean dropping our revamp, it means continuing to develop parts that seemed to interest them at Fan Fest. It means trying to find ways of balancing them with the larger game and identifying possible exploits and ways to prevent them.
But, one of the things I found far worse than another broken promise was an accusation I read from another smuggler that said those that did not agree with his way of dealing with it obviously don't care about the profession. I am glad folks feel passionate about our class. But, being insulting and generally rude (like he wanted) is not going to get you heard. It's going to get your message, no matter how justified, ignored. Being persistant and civil is far more likely to get results.
Ragnaat
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:05 pm
#11
Not trolling, I just don't see how in one thread you proposed a "mini-publish" to include a few small needed bug fixes as well as a new item like travel terminal slicing, and in the next you base your plea to protesters to relax in part on the fact that the devs have a full plate and its counterproductive to fight for changes to happen sooner.
DigiDante wrote:
Ragnaat wrote:
Um, not trying to start something DigiDante, but in one thread you say there is no reason to protest because the devs simply have no time in the schedule and in the thread sitting right next to it as I look in the thread listings I see a post by you proposing a mini-publish to hold us over 'till the revamp. Have you changed your mind on the subject in the last 2 days or am I mising something subtle?
Yes you're missing something.
If you would read my post you'd realize that everything in that post was already answered in other recent posts. Small fixes like adding text to a box is no work at all. Why bring this up unless you're trolling?
If you must know where I stand, its pretty clear to me that the devs will have a hard time getting though what they have scheduled *now* (as per the removed schedule update). There is clearly no time for a revamp and with all the work already in the pre-JTL schedule there isn't any room for another 2week mini publish. But while I understand that, I also think they need to start discussion of changes now, make damn sure they're thinking about smuggler whie they make all their other changes (GCW, Combat, JTL) and devote some of their friday morning "playtime" to the smuggler profession and offer some hotfix level of fixes now. That is a very worthy cause to draw attention to, and we need to continue to press to keep the devs attention rather then give them a full pass for the next 3 or 4 months due to their other responsibilities. And if one way people want to keep smuggler in the staffs mind is to take a few people to theed and feign all evening for a week, or change their house sign, or take their vendors down or whatever then I say go for it - just remember not to be an ass.
[p.s. maybe I should have started the conversation in the other thread, beceause its more about your call for a mini pub then it is your call to protestors, this was just the newer of the threads, and where I saw the comments that confused me]
Mackle
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:46 pm
#12
DigiDante wrote:
All you people who are going around and protesting are not going to help with anything.
The Dev's have a FULL plate, it is their fault for releasing the game with so much stuff needed to be done prior to first expansion. The economy is shot and the heart of the game ( GCW ) need major attention.
Changing your house sign, a mass feign death or anything like that will not help at all, just frustrate the Dev's more. The more time the Dev's have to break to explain anything or be forced to work on something else will just delay us more. Protesting I see no positive outcome.
Pleas just be patient - If you want to protest... do so quietly, but don't rally for your cause on the forum..
All I see protesting doing is spliting the community more. We are a community remember. .
This forum use to be constructive and friendly, now it is alot of people bitching ( I understand why ) and protesters trying to gather people for their cause.
If you are upset about the revamp being pushed back... drop smuggler and pick up another profession. There is plenty time for you to pick smuggler up again prior to the revamp.
The best way to be heard I believe is if all you people who are upset just drop your profession... I love being a smuggler and will keep it until the end I hope, but I can always work on other characters on other servers until the revamp.
Message Edited by DigiDante on 06-08-2004 08:31 AM
Thanks for the feedback JustG but... hmmm... wait a second...
Telling people "if you are upset about the revamp being pushed back... drop smuggler and pick up another profession" is just plain insulting to every person who cares about this profession.
Like yourself, I have been here since launch and long before, and am paying to play as a Smuggler -a profession that was included at launch. I first filed bug reports on how broken it was in beta, but nothing has ever been improved, yet we have seen more than our share of nerfs. We have been promised a revamp since Sept of 03, and now likely won't see one until sometime in 2005.
Thismight not bother you at all, but it bothers some of us A LOT.
While we're at it, telling people that if they want to protest, to "do so quietly, but don't rally for your cause on the forum" makeslittle sense. There is no such thing as a silent protest. That is something I expect to hear from a Mod, not a Smuggler.
Will any protests make a difference? Who knows. Most likely it won't, because not enough Smugglers would participate.
But you never know... when I heardan ArmorsmithinTheed Sunday night talking about how he is no longer selling pre-sliced armor because his Smuggler asked him not to, and saw a post about another AS who said "his" Smuggler was on strike, I knew at least some people who didn't really pay attention to our plight prior to the latest delay know what is going on now. The more players talking about us, the more the devs will listen to us.
You may not care to participate, and that's your own decision. Hopefully the people that do will get enough people talking that you won't have to.
DigiDante
Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:50 pm
#13
I know it bothers everyone, and it bothers me too.
I am just saying, theres nothing we can accomplish by protesting besides ruin the attitude of others.
I have accepted the revamp is pushed back, I am upset about it, but hell what can I do? Nothing.
I know several smugglers who are very much in love with the profession as me who have dropped it. They all swear to pick it back up when the revamp hits, but they are experiencing other things in game they haven't really done yet.
I am just saying, theres nothing we can accomplish by protesting besides ruin the attitude of others.
I have accepted the revamp is pushed back, I am upset about it, but hell what can I do? Nothing.
I know several smugglers who are very much in love with the profession as me who have dropped it. They all swear to pick it back up when the revamp hits, but they are experiencing other things in game they haven't really done yet.
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