Shipwright Archive
Thread: master shipwrights dont know jack
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hamhamthe3rd
Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:13 am
#1
its a common problem with any profession really, when people grind through them mindlessly and become knowledgeless masters...
that fact doesnt stop them from stocking a vendor and just tossing anything onto it. when someone does happen to want to buy something butfirst has a question ask, they get shakey answers. oh well thats just how the game is played i suppose.
that fact doesnt stop them from stocking a vendor and just tossing anything onto it. when someone does happen to want to buy something butfirst has a question ask, they get shakey answers. oh well thats just how the game is played i suppose. so its not confused, i am not attacking shipwrights and i dont expect anyone to know everything about any profession. its just that if you stocked the millions of resources to master something you could have done some testing to be able to field some questions better. maybe you should know what happens if you reverse engineer a component, just maybe. then again maybe not.
pervel
Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:28 am
#2
This is a point of view that pops up from time to time. What I would like to ask you is this. Why do you think that a person that take longer time to master a profession would know more about a profession than a person that first went fast to master and then tried to learn the profession? If anything, I would assume it would be the other way around. The person that went quickly to master will have more time looking at the "bigger picture" given that he has all options available faster.
It takes time to fully understand a crafting profession. No matter if you level fast or slow.
-Redux-
Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:54 am
#3
hamhamthe3rd wrote:
its a common problem with any profession really, when people grind through them mindlessly and become knowledgeless masters...
so its not confused, i am not attacking shipwrights and i dont expect anyone to know everything about any profession. its just that if you stocked the millions of resources to master something you could have done some testing to be able to field some questions better. maybe you should know what happens if you reverse engineer a component, just maybe. then again maybe not.
To simplify his point:
The title Master Shipwright is just a title. Talk to your shipwright (novice ormaster)and make sure your shipwright actually knows something about what he is producing and didn't just grind up with no attention to what he was producing and the fine points of the craft.
Niacia
Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:18 am
#4
pervel wrote:This is a point of view that pops up from time to time. What I would like to ask you is this. Why do you think that a person that take longer time to master a profession would know more about a profession than a person that first went fast to master and then tried to learn the profession? If anything, I would assume it would be the other way around. The person that went quickly to master will have more time looking at the "bigger picture" given that he has all options available faster.It takes time to fully understand a crafting profession. No matter if you level fast or slow.
There actually is a reason for this. Becoming master slower means, you will have fewer options at the start. If you grind to master very fast, you will be confronted with all the options at once. This actually makes learning thibngs a lot harder.
I do not know, if you have something to do with teaching (apart from beeing a pupil that is
). One of the most important things is not to go on to fast. Otherwise students will not be able to follow you.The same is true, if you want to teach yourself something. It is a good thing to start slowly and not to try to learn everything at once.
Having said this, there are some people who are very fast learners and can deal with such a situation. Maybe you are one. But most people will try to find a few ways to do things that work (more or less). But those people very often do not come to see the whole picture. With shipwright being a quite complex profession, getting the big picture will take time. I do not believe, that anyone already knows everything about all possible combinations of subcomponents and components for example.
Regards
Niacia
CerionSkydreamer
Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:23 am
#5
Niacia wrote:
pervel wrote:This is a point of view that pops up from time to time. What I would like to ask you is this. Why do you think that a person that take longer time to master a profession would know more about a profession than a person that first went fast to master and then tried to learn the profession? If anything, I would assume it would be the other way around. The person that went quickly to master will have more time looking at the "bigger picture" given that he has all options available faster.It takes time to fully understand a crafting profession. No matter if you level fast or slow.
There actually is a reason for this. Becoming master slower means, you will have fewer options at the start. If you grind to master very fast, you will be confronted with all the options at once. This actually makes learning thibngs a lot harder.
I do not know, if you have something to do with teaching (apart from beeing a pupil that is
The same is true, if you want to teach yourself something. It is a good thing to start slowly and not to try to learn everything at once.
Having said this, there are some people who are very fast learners and can deal with such a situation. Maybe you are one. But most people will try to find a few ways to do things that work (more or less). But those people very often do not come to see the whole picture. With shipwright being a quite complex profession, getting the big picture will take time. I do not believe, that anyone already knows everything about all possible combinations of subcomponents and components for example.
Regards
Niacia
And just as a humorous side note, if you're like me, sometimes taking things slow doesn't really help either, lol. I plodded my way through Droid Engineering, and that profession is STILL a mystery to me, lol. It's so complex, I still have the 'doh' moments.
FishMongerXpress
Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:05 am
#6
I am a Master Shipwright on Kauri and I would have to agree with the post to a point. Yes someone who has never crafted before has no idea what he is doing. However a crafter from a previous field who works with his patrons to find out what works and what doesn't is what constatutes a master, I craft by a person to person basis. If someone comes in complaining about something I ask them to tell me what would they like for me to fix the problem, or how can I make it better. If they want more dammage I work with that if they want less mass I work with that, but it requires feedback. Work with your crafters, most the time we can't go out and test what we craft we go off what you say and how you say it works. If it is "jacked" let us know but also give us a idea on how we can fix it. That is all to my rant.
Fish Monger
Master Shipwright CEC
Kauri
Niacia
Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:14 am
#7
Right, not being able to try things does not help .
One thing I would really like is something like a ship management terminal that both the SW and the customer cann access at the same time. Something similar to the Image Designer interface. I sometimes find it hard to explain to customers what there options are. And if you fine tune a ship it would help to have an ingame way to keep track of the current mass.
It is kind of silly, if you have to use external spread sheets or paper to do so.
There still is a lot that can be improved with SW.
Reagrds
Niacia
.One thing I would really like is something like a ship management terminal that both the SW and the customer cann access at the same time. Something similar to the Image Designer interface. I sometimes find it hard to explain to customers what there options are. And if you fine tune a ship it would help to have an ingame way to keep track of the current mass.
It is kind of silly, if you have to use external spread sheets or paper to do so.
There still is a lot that can be improved with SW.
Reagrds
Niacia
tipha
Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:24 am
#8
Actually it has little to do with how fast one leveled to master. It has all to do with how much the crafter with his/her customers to understand the two worlds fully: Shipwright and Pilots. Only after that one can really master the profession. I am gladly surprised to see Shipwright beats Weaponsmith as the most complext profession in this game.
ZenDragonMLS
Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:25 am
#9
There are some good points throughout this post. I have learned Architect the slow way, and then on the Test Center I just blasted my way up. I just ground Master Shipwright on live the fast way, yet I did lots of experimentation during Beta. So I've done things both ways.
The point about the "Master" title is dead-on. Regardless of how you got there, that title doesn't necessarily mean anything. All it means is that the person accumulated the set of boxes - no more and no less. As a customer you need to talk with them to figure out if they know what they are talking about.
If you are talking about the actual "crafting" part of being a master, it's not clear to me that fast vs. slow has to make a difference in your understanding of the craft. One point that IS valid is that if you blast up you probably focused only on a few products, and didn't stop to experiment. For Architect it is statues and shipwrights it is chassis.
To me the real difference between fast and slow is that with a slow path up, where you sell your products as you go, can give you a better feel for the profession from a "business" standpoint. You learn what sells and doesn't sell and what customers want and don't want. If you blast up in an hour, then you don't learn that *during that phase*. But you'll learn it as you get into business.
With regards to shipwright, since it is a brand new profession and business, we are ALL learning both the technical side of the craft and the business side. So in a way I don't see that the people who ground shipwright in an hour are at a disadvantage - we are all making this up as we go.
I guess that's where I bottom out - we are ALL learning here and shaping not only a technical profession but a new business. I'm glad that people can come here and toss out their ideas on what works and what doesn't.
The point about the "Master" title is dead-on. Regardless of how you got there, that title doesn't necessarily mean anything. All it means is that the person accumulated the set of boxes - no more and no less. As a customer you need to talk with them to figure out if they know what they are talking about.
If you are talking about the actual "crafting" part of being a master, it's not clear to me that fast vs. slow has to make a difference in your understanding of the craft. One point that IS valid is that if you blast up you probably focused only on a few products, and didn't stop to experiment. For Architect it is statues and shipwrights it is chassis.
To me the real difference between fast and slow is that with a slow path up, where you sell your products as you go, can give you a better feel for the profession from a "business" standpoint. You learn what sells and doesn't sell and what customers want and don't want. If you blast up in an hour, then you don't learn that *during that phase*. But you'll learn it as you get into business.
With regards to shipwright, since it is a brand new profession and business, we are ALL learning both the technical side of the craft and the business side. So in a way I don't see that the people who ground shipwright in an hour are at a disadvantage - we are all making this up as we go.
I guess that's where I bottom out - we are ALL learning here and shaping not only a technical profession but a new business. I'm glad that people can come here and toss out their ideas on what works and what doesn't.
Middenface
Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:38 am
#10
I can understand why finding SW with this attitude would be disheartining. That is why I spent my entire time in beta trying to actually learn what the different components and subcomponents do. I didn;t test as thoroughly as some, but I did learn my craft
In fact I think I only spent about 2 hours in space - and for an old XvT junkie, you know how hard that was lol
I am in the proces of making a Shipwright Website which will have all the guides stickied on this board, as well as a dtatbas of ALL ships components and tools. It will list what they do, how they are made, who can use them and what resources are needed. TThis will hopefully help fill the knowledge gap found at the moment.
The website is Waypointshipyards.com
In the mean time I agree with what someone above said - ask your SW some questions - if they are any good they will be asking you questions about how you want your components to work? e.g do you want a strong shiled that takes a while to recharge? Or a weaker shield that recharges quickly? That is the kind of thing they should be asking you, the pilot, if they know what they are doing.
And if you are on the Chimera server, pop over to Waypoint City on Rori. By tomorrow at the latest, I hope to have a vendor stocking not only ships but at least 100 reactors, engines, shields, guns etc - I've even got some paint and texture kits going
In fact I think I only spent about 2 hours in space - and for an old XvT junkie, you know how hard that was lol
I am in the proces of making a Shipwright Website which will have all the guides stickied on this board, as well as a dtatbas of ALL ships components and tools. It will list what they do, how they are made, who can use them and what resources are needed. TThis will hopefully help fill the knowledge gap found at the moment.
The website is Waypointshipyards.com
In the mean time I agree with what someone above said - ask your SW some questions - if they are any good they will be asking you questions about how you want your components to work? e.g do you want a strong shiled that takes a while to recharge? Or a weaker shield that recharges quickly? That is the kind of thing they should be asking you, the pilot, if they know what they are doing.
And if you are on the Chimera server, pop over to Waypoint City on Rori. By tomorrow at the latest, I hope to have a vendor stocking not only ships but at least 100 reactors, engines, shields, guns etc - I've even got some paint and texture kits going
Message Edited by Middenface on 10-30-2004 04:39 AM
pervel
Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:44 am
#11
I am amazed! Totally amazed by what people think are the causes of different things. Next some people will ask that the xp requirement for shipwright be increased so that we will get more knowledgable shipwrights.
Guys... the only thing that dertermines howmuch a crafter knows about his profession is the effort he has put into understanding it in relation to his intelligence. And the only way you as customer can determineif a crafter knows his profession is by looking at the stuff he makes and/or by talking to him.
pervel
Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:49 am
#13
Middenface wrote:
Nice point - well put!
/gives Perv a Wookiee-Cookiee
/grumble
Please don't abbreviate my name like that. 
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