Shipwright Archive
Thread: A suggestion for rebalancing craftable engine mass and P/R/Y
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Eaca
Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:13 pm
#1
You should notice the same thing with capacitors. Odd level loot capshave much lower recharge and capacity than even number caps much lower. Heck I think L2 caps are better than L9. Boosters as well, tho I've seen a few L5 drops with very nice max speed and accelleration...
Rogue1970
Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:29 pm
#2
mailo's posted statsis out of date I believe, or are those un-upgraded stats? I know I can crafte 91 speed cert 7 and 104.8 speed cert 9 engines now - with overchargers.
You should also consider his ranges for PYR are for a SINGLE line, not all 3 - it is impossible to get the top numbers he states for all 3 stats.
I don't completely agree we need mass reductions as drastic as 15% either, as half the fun of building a ship is battling the mass demons.
What I would advocate is a 10fold increase in the power of the PYR experimentation lines with a 5% bump in the base stats,OR an engine upgrade addition that lets us choose a significantincrease of PYR stats (10-20 points)with a detriment to reactor drain as the balance.
Chiwawa
Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:18 pm
#3
Im still waiting for "special" enhancements to drop in game that would make crafting things like this much more viable, like the kryat of the engine world, if you see what I mean
CPark
Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:25 pm
#4
If we can increase the range of values in those two areas with experimentation changes that's fine. But if the range can't match at least the average values of the two levels then it isn't broad enough.
As for the data about craftable ranges being out of date I think you are right. But the changes in speed only make us more competitive on that one characteristic. And we are already pretty close on speed.
You are right about YPR -- we could not make up the difference unless the experimentation rates were such that all the lines could be experimented. In that case, a higher base for the original combine might be a better choice -- so they we competitive, with good materials, "out of the assembly"
As for other components -- I have some information for them as well but I didn't want to SPAM the boards if no one was interested.
As for the data about craftable ranges being out of date I think you are right. But the changes in speed only make us more competitive on that one characteristic. And we are already pretty close on speed.
You are right about YPR -- we could not make up the difference unless the experimentation rates were such that all the lines could be experimented. In that case, a higher base for the original combine might be a better choice -- so they we competitive, with good materials, "out of the assembly"
As for other components -- I have some information for them as well but I didn't want to SPAM the boards if no one was interested.
CPark
Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:19 am
#5
Folks-
Many shipwrights believe we can't compete on engines. Here is some documentation to support a request for a rebalance of the specifications on level 3,5,7, and 9 crafted engines. I propose a 15% increase in in pitch, roll and yaw numbers on crafted (not looted) "odd level" engines and a 15% decrease in mass. If you look over this (rather long) post please correct any mistakes you find. And I know no one will be shy if they don't agree
I've been keeping track of the stats on looted engines. I don't have a very large number but a pattern in their characteristics seems to be emerging. Here are the numbers.
RED - - - - MA - - - - - - P - - - - Y - - - - R - - - - TS - - - L - - N
1487.83 - 00868.77 - 45.98 - 46.16 - 45.22 - 42.01 - 1 - 24
1550.35 - 01602.51 - 55.43 - 56.45 - 56.03 - 51.14 - 2 - 18
1550.09 - 02354.21 - 47.59 - 47.22 - 47.18 - 47.12 - 3 - 17
1548.97 - 03226.55 - 58.36 - 59.95 - 59.84 - 52.89 - 4 - 12
1611.98 - 06366.78 - 50.98 - 51.06 - 50.97 - 51.15 - 5 - 16
1678.58 - 11373.88 - 62.76 - 62.60 - 63.06 - 65.54 - 6 - 05
1703.40 - 19797.20 - 54.90 - 54.20 - 53.70 - 64.90 - 7 - 01
1762.67 - 29441.72 - 67.62 - 70.17 - 67.87 - 75.97 - 8 - 06
1751.30 - 46994.30 - 52.70 - 59.60 - 61.30 - 67.50 - 9 - 01
RED = reactor Energy Drain, MA = Mass, PYR = Pitch,Yaw,Roll
TS = Top Speed, L = Reengineering Level, N = Number of engines averaged
The numbers are the average for the engines looted.
As a reminder, the tiers are Novice = 1, Tier I = 2/3, Tier II = 4/5
Tier III = 6/7, Tier IV = 8, Master = 9/10
Crafters can build even level components, 1/3/5/7/9 So for a pilot with
a particular skill Tier 2/3 4/5 6/7 and 9/10 are in competition with crafters.
From mailo's excellent post (stickied on the shipwright forum) we see that the range of characteristics that players can craft are...
(RED) (Mass) (P/Y/R) (TS) L
(1724/1274/-4.50) - (00886/00746/-01.4) - (38/52/0.14) - (36.3/43.9/0.076) 1
(1810/1335/-4.75) - (02295/01695/-06.0) - (41/55/0.14) - (42.0/57.0/0.150) 3
(1897/1402/-4.95) - (05736/04236/-15.0) - (43/58/0.15) - (49.0/77.0/0.180) 5
(1983/1465/-5.18) - (14320/10580/-37.4) - (46/62/0.16) - (58.0/78.0/0.200) 7
(2079/1529/-5.40) - (35800/26440/-93.6) - (48/65/0.17) - (67.0/91.0/0.240) 9
If you define competitive as being able to beat the average on non-reengineered looted gear -- after all, players have to come to shipwrights for reverse engineering, then within levels (1/3/5/7/9) shipwrights are competitive. And within tiers (1, 2/3, 4/5, 6/7) shipwrights are competitive on speed and reactor energy drain. But On the important characteristics of Mass and Pitch/Roll/Yaw, shipwrights can not compete with even the average of the non-craftable level at that tier. Pilots are better off keeping a tier two engine over any crafted (or for that matter most looted) tier 3 engines.
So on engines -- the only roll for crafters is Re-engineering exceptional components into very special engines -- a pretty small nitch given the overall differences between engines within the Tiers.
Many shipwrights believe we can't compete on engines. Here is some documentation to support a request for a rebalance of the specifications on level 3,5,7, and 9 crafted engines. I propose a 15% increase in in pitch, roll and yaw numbers on crafted (not looted) "odd level" engines and a 15% decrease in mass. If you look over this (rather long) post please correct any mistakes you find. And I know no one will be shy if they don't agree
I've been keeping track of the stats on looted engines. I don't have a very large number but a pattern in their characteristics seems to be emerging. Here are the numbers.
RED - - - - MA - - - - - - P - - - - Y - - - - R - - - - TS - - - L - - N
1487.83 - 00868.77 - 45.98 - 46.16 - 45.22 - 42.01 - 1 - 24
1550.35 - 01602.51 - 55.43 - 56.45 - 56.03 - 51.14 - 2 - 18
1550.09 - 02354.21 - 47.59 - 47.22 - 47.18 - 47.12 - 3 - 17
1548.97 - 03226.55 - 58.36 - 59.95 - 59.84 - 52.89 - 4 - 12
1611.98 - 06366.78 - 50.98 - 51.06 - 50.97 - 51.15 - 5 - 16
1678.58 - 11373.88 - 62.76 - 62.60 - 63.06 - 65.54 - 6 - 05
1703.40 - 19797.20 - 54.90 - 54.20 - 53.70 - 64.90 - 7 - 01
1762.67 - 29441.72 - 67.62 - 70.17 - 67.87 - 75.97 - 8 - 06
1751.30 - 46994.30 - 52.70 - 59.60 - 61.30 - 67.50 - 9 - 01
RED = reactor Energy Drain, MA = Mass, PYR = Pitch,Yaw,Roll
TS = Top Speed, L = Reengineering Level, N = Number of engines averaged
The numbers are the average for the engines looted.
As a reminder, the tiers are Novice = 1, Tier I = 2/3, Tier II = 4/5
Tier III = 6/7, Tier IV = 8, Master = 9/10
Crafters can build even level components, 1/3/5/7/9 So for a pilot with
a particular skill Tier 2/3 4/5 6/7 and 9/10 are in competition with crafters.
From mailo's excellent post (stickied on the shipwright forum) we see that the range of characteristics that players can craft are...
(RED) (Mass) (P/Y/R) (TS) L
(1724/1274/-4.50) - (00886/00746/-01.4) - (38/52/0.14) - (36.3/43.9/0.076) 1
(1810/1335/-4.75) - (02295/01695/-06.0) - (41/55/0.14) - (42.0/57.0/0.150) 3
(1897/1402/-4.95) - (05736/04236/-15.0) - (43/58/0.15) - (49.0/77.0/0.180) 5
(1983/1465/-5.18) - (14320/10580/-37.4) - (46/62/0.16) - (58.0/78.0/0.200) 7
(2079/1529/-5.40) - (35800/26440/-93.6) - (48/65/0.17) - (67.0/91.0/0.240) 9
If you define competitive as being able to beat the average on non-reengineered looted gear -- after all, players have to come to shipwrights for reverse engineering, then within levels (1/3/5/7/9) shipwrights are competitive. And within tiers (1, 2/3, 4/5, 6/7) shipwrights are competitive on speed and reactor energy drain. But On the important characteristics of Mass and Pitch/Roll/Yaw, shipwrights can not compete with even the average of the non-craftable level at that tier. Pilots are better off keeping a tier two engine over any crafted (or for that matter most looted) tier 3 engines.
So on engines -- the only roll for crafters is Re-engineering exceptional components into very special engines -- a pretty small nitch given the overall differences between engines within the Tiers.
S-1-l2-H-C
Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:21 am
#6
i think this needs to be addressed too. the PYR is just as important as the top speed. anyone who has flown with the pre-nerf reward and a crafted mkIV knows that the crafted will make your ship turn half as fast.
rexan
Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:48 pm
#7
I think that if they were to roll the Y/P/R values into one line of experinemtation (rather than 3) we could make some very respectable engines.
CPark
Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:42 pm
#8
Regarding rolling PRY into a single line -- I don't believe that would be enough. Here's why:
If the range of experimentation on a single line can not exceed the average for that line in looted gear then, while it is true that you could raise all the lines at once by rolling them together they _still_ would not be better than looted gear.
So either
1) the base of PRY that comes from the original combine should be raised so existing experimentation can make them all better than the average of looted items
OR
2)the amount of change that an great experimentation success makes to an individual line should be raised enough so that all three lines can be made better than the average of looted items
OR
3) The lines should be combined and the experimentation or base changed so that the combined lines can be better than the average of looted items.
If the range of experimentation on a single line can not exceed the average for that line in looted gear then, while it is true that you could raise all the lines at once by rolling them together they _still_ would not be better than looted gear.
So either
1) the base of PRY that comes from the original combine should be raised so existing experimentation can make them all better than the average of looted items
OR
2)the amount of change that an great experimentation success makes to an individual line should be raised enough so that all three lines can be made better than the average of looted items
OR
3) The lines should be combined and the experimentation or base changed so that the combined lines can be better than the average of looted items.
Kalano
Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:27 pm
#9
Out of curiosity. Has anyone tried just tweaking two of the lines instead of all three? What i mean is, i don't fly using all three axis most of the time, more of two of them.
What i wonder is, would there be a big noticible difference if the Pitch and Roll were experimented and the Yaw left alone. Would that increase a pilots ability in giving two axis the extra turning speed and leave the last one for minor tweaking of targeting and direction.
Pitch and roll would cause a pilot to use the up and down flight pattern using the roll to change in cornering direction.
Or for those who like left and right motion, the Yaw and Roll, with the same concept.
Been thinking about just Pitch and Yaw, but i don't know how that would affect flight without the Roll so much. I truely would cause me to change a lot in my flight pattern but i am curious.
Has anyone experiment on this at all? I guess i need to really start grinding to get up in the engines so i can really test it out.
ExcaliburCH
Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:09 am
#10
Thats a good point, Kalano. Now that you have mentioned, I also use 95% only two axes (up/down and roll). So I could focus on those two axes with experimentation.
What makes me curious is also, that I have 14 experimentation points (or is it even 15?) on weapons when I only can use 10 on some other components. I don't blame the extra points, but why only on some specific components?
cheers
Exi
What makes me curious is also, that I have 14 experimentation points (or is it even 15?) on weapons when I only can use 10 on some other components. I don't blame the extra points, but why only on some specific components?
cheers
Exi
Rogue1970
Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:52 am
#11
Well when you consider that 6-7 points will raise a Mark V from 51 to maybe 58 on ONE stat - even experimenting with 15 points in two lines would only get those two lines to about 60 theoretically, which is still subpar when compared with looted engines. Also, many pilots use all 3 stats - I know I do - twist to roll joysticks are very popular.
The suggestions in this thread are good though. Combining all 3 into one stat seems unreasonable unless it is handled like BE pet stats - where each of the 3 stats is effected randomly.
Increasing the effect of a point 10fold for PYR may be the solution, but we need raw numbers to proove it.
I'd gladly sacrifice some speed to put out a high PYR engine thats comparable to loot - I just want to be able to have the option of being able to effect the speed too, without using all of my points on just PYR.
For example, as a target - my current best cert7 engine is 91 speed with a base of 49 PYR before I spend my last 6 points.
If I put 2 points into each of the PYR stats, I'd expect to see a 57PYR average (not the current 49.6).
I would also have the option of making the engine say 85 speed leaving me with 9 points for PYR - resulting in a 61PYR average or maybe 80 speed with 12 points left to get a65 PYR.
The last end of the spectrum would be the base 77speed engine with 5 points in each PYR to get a 69average PYR.
This is just an example - basing the effect of a point at approximately a +4 increase and an engine overcharger upgrade.
There are still FAR better looted engines out there though, with higher PYR and speed than even these examples.
So, an across the board increase in base PYR of 10-15% would be still be justified.A 15% base PYR increasewould alter the above example, so if 5 points each went into PYR and nothing in speed with an overcharge resulting in approximately 77speed and average PYR of 76.5.
Keep in mind, I'm basing this on TOP END engines - not all shipwrights have these resources or will put everything into PYR - it's more likely to create a balance and a larger market for engines.
Personally I'd want an engine around 83-85speed with 65-70PYR - a good balance.
Others will want different things likeless mass,more Yaw, ignore Rollor more Speed - but it really opens up the 'customization' of engines far beyond what we do now: ie.cookie cutter high speed, don't waste our time with PYR engines.
FlereImsaho
Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:46 am
#12
Crafted engines should be overcharged to compete with looted items - therefore not an issue on large ships. I keep my reward engine for my TIE Advanced solely because of its low mass/performance.
Golrok
Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:39 pm
#13
I craft my own expendable engines for the sake of overload4ing them. Thats not very appealing to overload and decay the RE'd prenerf or a good level 8 RE'd engine, (which are usually better YPR than the prenerf)not appealing to me anyway.
I'm almost positive overloading engines also overloads the YPR. Overloading an RE'd engine that has YPR in the 70's is almost overkill for me, I end up overturning so overloading a crafted engine is more appealing to me, the YPR is more managable and it feels like an RE'd engine that has not been overloaded, but is faster top speed.
I find certain times I like RE'd engines with no overload, other times I like a higher top speed crafted that is overloaded, depending on chasis and situation. I'm sure I'm not the only one like that. plus the crafted engines are almost always much more durable, you don't want your engine to be the first component destroyed.
they should let slicers up crafted YPR imo.
I'm almost positive overloading engines also overloads the YPR. Overloading an RE'd engine that has YPR in the 70's is almost overkill for me, I end up overturning so overloading a crafted engine is more appealing to me, the YPR is more managable and it feels like an RE'd engine that has not been overloaded, but is faster top speed.
I find certain times I like RE'd engines with no overload, other times I like a higher top speed crafted that is overloaded, depending on chasis and situation. I'm sure I'm not the only one like that. plus the crafted engines are almost always much more durable, you don't want your engine to be the first component destroyed.
they should let slicers up crafted YPR imo.
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