Shipwright Archive
Thread: A suggestion for rebalancing craftable engine mass and P/R/Y
rexan
Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:09 pm
#14
Kalano wrote:
Out of curiosity. Has anyone tried just tweaking two of the lines instead of all three? What i mean is, i don't fly using all three axis most of the time, more of two of them.
What i wonder is, would there be a big noticible difference if the Pitch and Roll were experimented and the Yaw left alone. Would that increase a pilots ability in giving two axis the extra turning speed and leave the last one for minor tweaking of targeting and direction.
It is a good point. Most people don't roll while flying.
But you are only able to experiment about 1.75 branches with 15 points anyways.If you put everything into Y and P, your mass and maxspeed wouldbe really bad. Plus your Y and P would still be lower than most looted engines.
Shipwrights can only effectively experiment in mass and speed. Experiment in Y, P or Rdoesnot give much back. And thisis further compounded by the fact that these are 3 seperateexperimentation lines.
Narreem0884
Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:15 am
#15
I agree. Many looted parts are better than shipwright parts. While I've never found better looted engines, RE'd or otherwise, weapons and capacitors far outrank their crafted counterparts. I have yet to see a single capacitor at level with a recharge rate passing 40 or energy storage passing 1000. Weapons are also underpowered, though somewhat faster firing. Reactors seem to come out better when crafted, as my low mass, 13k output crafted reactor allows me to use my heavy looted lvl 8 guns. Droid interfaces also are better when looted, because the military grade versions weigh next to nothing and have speeds below 20.
Everything a shipwright can make should be better than what can be looted, even after said loot parts are RE'd. This should ring true with every crafting profession, especially weaponsmith, as looted DoT weapons are a must for PvP.
Jagged-F3l
Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:08 am
#16
CPark wrote:
Folks-
Many shipwrights believe we can't compete on engines. Here is some documentation to support a request for a rebalance of the specifications on level 3,5,7, and 9 crafted engines. I propose a 15% increase in in pitch, roll and yaw numbers on crafted (not looted) "odd level" engines and a 15% decrease in mass. If you look over this (rather long) post please correct any mistakes you find. And I know no one will be shy if they don't agree
I've been keeping track of the stats on looted engines. I don't have a very large number but a pattern in their characteristics seems to be emerging. Here are the numbers.
RED - - - - MA - - - - - - P - - - - Y - - - - R - - - - TS - - - L - - N
1487.83 - 00868.77 - 45.98 - 46.16 - 45.22 - 42.01 - 1 - 24
1550.35 - 01602.51 - 55.43 - 56.45 - 56.03 - 51.14 - 2 - 18
1550.09 - 02354.21 - 47.59 - 47.22 - 47.18 - 47.12 - 3 - 17
1548.97 - 03226.55 - 58.36 - 59.95 - 59.84 - 52.89 - 4 - 12
1611.98 - 06366.78 - 50.98 - 51.06 - 50.97 - 51.15 - 5 - 16
1678.58 - 11373.88 - 62.76 - 62.60 - 63.06 - 65.54 - 6 - 05
1703.40 - 19797.20 - 54.90 - 54.20 - 53.70 - 64.90 - 7 - 01
1762.67 - 29441.72 - 67.62 - 70.17 - 67.87 - 75.97 - 8 - 06
1751.30 - 46994.30 - 52.70 - 59.60 - 61.30 - 67.50 - 9 - 01
RED = reactor Energy Drain, MA = Mass, PYR = Pitch,Yaw,Roll
TS = Top Speed, L = Reengineering Level, N = Number of engines averaged
The numbers are the average for the engines looted.
As a reminder, the tiers are Novice = 1, Tier I = 2/3, Tier II = 4/5
Tier III = 6/7, Tier IV = 8, Master = 9/10
Crafters can build even level components, 1/3/5/7/9 So for a pilot with
a particular skill Tier 2/3 4/5 6/7 and 9/10 are in competition with crafters.
From mailo's excellent post (stickied on the shipwright forum) we see that the range of characteristics that players can craft are...
(RED) (Mass) (P/Y/R) (TS) L
(1724/1274/-4.50) - (00886/00746/-01.4) - (38/52/0.14) - (36.3/43.9/0.076) 1
(1810/1335/-4.75) - (02295/01695/-06.0) - (41/55/0.14) - (42.0/57.0/0.150) 3
(1897/1402/-4.95) - (05736/04236/-15.0) - (43/58/0.15) - (49.0/77.0/0.180) 5
(1983/1465/-5.18) - (14320/10580/-37.4) - (46/62/0.16) - (58.0/78.0/0.200) 7
(2079/1529/-5.40) - (35800/26440/-93.6) - (48/65/0.17) - (67.0/91.0/0.240) 9
If you define competitive as being able to beat the average on non-reengineered looted gear -- after all, players have to come to shipwrights for reverse engineering, then within levels (1/3/5/7/9) shipwrights are competitive. And within tiers (1, 2/3, 4/5, 6/7) shipwrights are competitive on speed and reactor energy drain. But On the important characteristics of Mass and Pitch/Roll/Yaw, shipwrights can not compete with even the average of the non-craftable level at that tier. Pilots are better off keeping a tier two engine over any crafted (or for that matter most looted) tier 3 engines.
So on engines -- the only roll for crafters is Re-engineering exceptional components into very special engines -- a pretty small nitch given the overall differences between engines within the Tiers.
/disagree
I'm doing fine with engines, it's one of my best sellers. I experiment on speed andtwo dimensions of maneuverability (typically pitchand roll). Yes, customers complain that it isn't as good as the loot their friends found. However, in my opinion, this is the way loot should be--enviable.
As for combining these three experimentation tracks into one. In sincerely believe this is bad idea. It takes away from the distinctiveness of every crafted engine. Besides, even in real life ships aren't symmetrically maneuverable (unless they are nothing more than sphere).
CPark
Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:59 am
#17
Jagged-F3l has a good point about loot being enviable. But the figures I quoted were not for exceptional loot -- they were the average for all loot. That means that if you go out for an hour of flying the chances are 50/50 that you will get loot as good as the numbers in the table.
If a crafter's _best_ product can not match the _average_ loot a pilot can get then the crafter's product just isn't competitive.
I believe crafters should have a reasonable chance of being at least slightly better than the average of easily available loot. That doesn't mean that the occasional truly excellent loot drop will not be an exciting item for a pilot to find. It just means that crafters will not be irrelevant for that class of equipment.
I believe that when game limits make whole classes of crafted goods useless there is a need for a game rebalance.
If a crafter's _best_ product can not match the _average_ loot a pilot can get then the crafter's product just isn't competitive.
I believe crafters should have a reasonable chance of being at least slightly better than the average of easily available loot. That doesn't mean that the occasional truly excellent loot drop will not be an exciting item for a pilot to find. It just means that crafters will not be irrelevant for that class of equipment.
I believe that when game limits make whole classes of crafted goods useless there is a need for a game rebalance.
Dav_Starkiller
Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:25 am
#18
Kalano wrote:
Out of curiosity. Has anyone tried just tweaking two of the lines instead of all three? What i mean is, i don't fly using all three axis most of the time, more of two of them.
What i wonder is, would there be a big noticible difference if the Pitch and Roll were experimented and the Yaw left alone. Would that increase a pilots ability in giving two axis the extra turning speed and leave the last one for minor tweaking of targeting and direction.
Pitch and roll would cause a pilot to use the up and down flight pattern using the roll to change in cornering direction.
Or for those who like left and right motion, the Yaw and Roll, with the same concept.
Been thinking about just Pitch and Yaw, but i don't know how that would affect flight without the Roll so much. I truely would cause me to change a lot in my flight pattern but i am curious.
Has anyone experiment on this at all? I guess i need to really start grinding to get up in the engines so i can really test it out.
As a long time TIE Fighter pilot (in this game and others, I might still be remembered as TFA_Merlin) pitch and roll are essential. I use what's known in the Star Wars Universe as the Tallon Roll (see http://theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=24795 ). It's a rapid climb into a tight spiral using pitch and roll only. You can get behind pretty much anything with this move. As a pilot, I only purchase engines with good stats in these areas. As an SW, I only spend points on pitch and roll unless it a custom order.
Just wanted to give you some props for bringing this subject up...and to let you all know what pilots look for. The reason most folks don't roll in combat is becuase it's not bound to the flight controls (for mouse pilots), so it's not a part of their beginning experience in JTL. Like I said, I've been flying TIE's for a long time. Hope this sheds some light on what stats are important to most pilots (well, the good ones anyway).
Kalano
Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:04 am
#19
Well, i can't take full credit for bringing up the idea since i got it from another poster who mentioned they got it from a book. But i had thought about it fora week before bringing it up.
Mostly was seeing how i played myself to see if some theories are true or not. i can understand if someone is not use to the mouse/keyboard set up but i got the hang of it fast. And i am not the most cordinated person either in fp games. i avoid most like the plague do to lack of skill.
Sorry if i slured any words. I am a bit drunk while typing righ now. man, if i didn't check myself, it would be totally unreadable.
S-1-l2-H-C
Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:25 am
#20
anyone who has tried a crafted and a loot engine under the same circumstances can tell that the crafted engines are worthless because you cant turn with it.
i think crafted engines should be much better than all but the rarest loot (im talking a one in a million loot engine). simple reason is it adds ballance to the game, especialy in pvp. right now the single most important part you put into your ship for pvp is the engine, since if you cant bring your weapons to bear on your enemy, you have no chance whatsoever.
in the engine department everyone should be in the same boat. now making it so that you could loot better engines was an allright idea, but the way they made it so that you WERE able to loot those engines and now you arent just totaly ruins the game for people who came in late, since they now have no way to ever match the performance of the people with pre-patch engines.
in a an online action game (MMO or not) and the single most important factor is BALLANCE.
its my opinion that crafted engines should be boosted to a level pf performace that exceeds all pre-patch loot/rewards and then they should reballance all the chassis speed modifiers accordingly.
this would make everyone happy except possibly some people sitting on pre-patch engines. i personaly use a 95.9 re'd reward and i would love it if i was able to buy a crafted engine that was better.
i think crafted engines should be much better than all but the rarest loot (im talking a one in a million loot engine). simple reason is it adds ballance to the game, especialy in pvp. right now the single most important part you put into your ship for pvp is the engine, since if you cant bring your weapons to bear on your enemy, you have no chance whatsoever.
in the engine department everyone should be in the same boat. now making it so that you could loot better engines was an allright idea, but the way they made it so that you WERE able to loot those engines and now you arent just totaly ruins the game for people who came in late, since they now have no way to ever match the performance of the people with pre-patch engines.
in a an online action game (MMO or not) and the single most important factor is BALLANCE.
its my opinion that crafted engines should be boosted to a level pf performace that exceeds all pre-patch loot/rewards and then they should reballance all the chassis speed modifiers accordingly.
this would make everyone happy except possibly some people sitting on pre-patch engines. i personaly use a 95.9 re'd reward and i would love it if i was able to buy a crafted engine that was better.
CPark
Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:40 pm
#21
There seem to be more folks that think that crafted engines should be made better than they are. So the question is -- by how much?
And people seem to think that some rare loot engines should be the best in the game.
So I'd like to ask opinions on the question in this way...
What percentage of the best loot engines should the best crafted engines be?
90% would mean the best crafted engine would be 90% of the best looted engine in each characteristic. If the best roll on a looted engine was 80 the best roll on a crafted engine would be 72.
So what do you think? 80% 90% 95% 99% -- and why do you think it?
And people seem to think that some rare loot engines should be the best in the game.
So I'd like to ask opinions on the question in this way...
What percentage of the best loot engines should the best crafted engines be?
90% would mean the best crafted engine would be 90% of the best looted engine in each characteristic. If the best roll on a looted engine was 80 the best roll on a crafted engine would be 72.
So what do you think? 80% 90% 95% 99% -- and why do you think it?
Eaca
Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:04 pm
#22
S-1-l2-H-C wrote:
anyone who has tried a crafted and a loot engine under the same circumstances can tell that the crafted engines are worthless because you cant turn with it.
i think crafted engines should be much better than all but the rarest loot (im talking a one in a million loot engine). simple reason is it adds ballance to the game, especialy in pvp. right now the single most important part you put into your ship for pvp is the engine, since if you cant bring your weapons to bear on your enemy, you have no chance whatsoever.
in the engine department everyone should be in the same boat. now making it so that you could loot better engines was an allright idea, but the way they made it so that you WERE able to loot those engines and now you arent just totaly ruins the game for people who came in late, since they now have no way to ever match the performance of the people with pre-patch engines.
in a an online action game (MMO or not) and the single most important factor is BALLANCE.
its my opinion that crafted engines should be boosted to a level pf performace that exceeds all pre-patch loot/rewards and then they should reballance all the chassis speed modifiers accordingly.
this would make everyone happy except possibly some people sitting on pre-patch engines. i personaly use a 95.9 re'd reward and i would love it if i was able to buy a crafted engine that was better.
The above part in yellow I highly disagree with as a pilot. Sorry, but if I bust my ass in deep space, earning 70+mil imp prestige, I should have a good chance of having a much better engine than somebody who just aced today. Sorry but the equation should always be loot < crafted < RE, not loot < RE < crafted < 1 in 1000000 RE. Crafted engines need a boost, no denying that, as do caps, but to make any crafted item better than anything you can hope to loot and RE takes away the only endgame pilots have left. Make all crafted stats 85% of what you could achieve on an average RE (where most loot will only have 1 or 2 stats that are at most 10% better than crafted, the rest of the stats would be below crafted, tho honestly most loot (cept engines, boosters, caps and weapons) are already at this point)
Kalano
Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:46 pm
#23
Eaca wrote:
S-1-l2-H-C wrote:
anyone who has tried a crafted and a loot engine under the same circumstances can tell that the crafted engines are worthless because you cant turn with it.
i think crafted engines should be much better than all but the rarest loot (im talking a one in a million loot engine). simple reason is it adds ballance to the game, especialy in pvp. right now the single most important part you put into your ship for pvp is the engine, since if you cant bring your weapons to bear on your enemy, you have no chance whatsoever.
in the engine department everyone should be in the same boat. now making it so that you could loot better engines was an allright idea, but the way they made it so that you WERE able to loot those engines and now you arent just totaly ruins the game for people who came in late, since they now have no way to ever match the performance of the people with pre-patch engines.
in a an online action game (MMO or not) and the single most important factor is BALLANCE.
its my opinion that crafted engines should be boosted to a level pf performace that exceeds all pre-patch loot/rewards and then they should reballance all the chassis speed modifiers accordingly.
this would make everyone happy except possibly some people sitting on pre-patch engines. i personaly use a 95.9 re'd reward and i would love it if i was able to buy a crafted engine that was better.
The above part in yellow I highly disagree with as a pilot. Sorry, but if I bust my ass in deep space, earning 70+mil imp prestige, I should have a good chance of having a much better engine than somebody who just aced today. Sorry but the equation should always be loot < crafted < RE, not loot < RE < crafted < 1 in 1000000 RE. Crafted engines need a boost, no denying that, as do caps, but to make any crafted item better than anything you can hope to loot and RE takes away the only endgame pilots have left. Make all crafted stats 85% of what you could achieve on an average RE (where most loot will only have 1 or 2 stats that are at most 10% better than crafted, the rest of the stats would be below crafted, tho honestly most loot (cept engines, boosters, caps and weapons) are already at this point)
I could live with that most definatly. It doesn't eliminate the RE engine that is awsome, but it makes it very rare in the fact that it would take some major time and effort to get all the parts together to make it. greater than crafted loot needs to stay a bit rare to keep the end game. It makes it very valuable and sought after. Having it the other way makes it boring and worthless. if anyone can get it, then its nothing special. but if you had to put time in it, like really good ground loot, then everyone ooh's and aah's over it and then attempt to get one themselves.
neutrineaux
Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:38 pm
#24
Dav_Starkiller wrote:
Kalano wrote:
Out of curiosity. Has anyone tried just tweaking two of the lines instead of all three? What i mean is, i don't fly using all three axis most of the time, more of two of them.
What i wonder is, would there be a big noticible difference if the Pitch and Roll were experimented and the Yaw left alone. Would that increase a pilots ability in giving two axis the extra turning speed and leave the last one for minor tweaking of targeting and direction.
Pitch and roll would cause a pilot to use the up and down flight pattern using the roll to change in cornering direction.
Or for those who like left and right motion, the Yaw and Roll, with the same concept.
Been thinking about just Pitch and Yaw, but i don't know how that would affect flight without the Roll so much. I truely would cause me to change a lot in my flight pattern but i am curious.
Has anyone experiment on this at all? I guess i need to really start grinding to get up in the engines so i can really test it out.
As a long time TIE Fighter pilot (in this game and others, I might still be remembered as TFA_Merlin) pitch and roll are essential. I use what's known in the Star Wars Universe as the Tallon Roll (see http://theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=24795 ). It's a rapid climb into a tight spiral using pitch and roll only. You can get behind pretty much anything with this move. As a pilot, I only purchase engines with good stats in these areas. As an SW, I only spend points on pitch and roll unless it a custom order.
Just wanted to give you some props for bringing this subject up...and to let you all know what pilots look for. The reason most folks don't roll in combat is becuase it's not bound to the flight controls (for mouse pilots), so it's not a part of their beginning experience in JTL. Like I said, I've been flying TIE's for a long time. Hope this sheds some light on what stats are important to most pilots (well, the good ones anyway).
Merlin!
You may not remember me, but I remember seeing you around back in the day, and flying against you, if memory serves. Nice to see a familiar face.
XWA_neutrineaux.
CPark
Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:38 pm
#25
Eaca -- could you give an example using engines so we could see exactly what your proposal would mean?
"Make all crafted stats 85% of what you could achieve on an average RE"
Right now, the average of Pitch for a looted class three engine is about 47.5. REed that would make it about 48.5 -- the "average RE". 85% of that would be about 41. Do you mean that the best crafted level three engine could only have 41 as the best possible pitch?
"(where most loot will only have 1 or 2 stats that are at most 10% better than crafted, the rest of the stats would be below crafted"
This confused me -- 10% better? or 15% better (100-85) like above?
Or do you mean that every time the game generates a stat there is a 15% chance that it will be between 1% and 10% better than the best crafted stat?
That would mean that if the best looted and REd Pitch for a level three engine was, say, 58 then the best crafted engine would be about 49 and one out of every 6 or seven looted engines, when RE'd, would have a pitch greater than 49.
"Make all crafted stats 85% of what you could achieve on an average RE"
Right now, the average of Pitch for a looted class three engine is about 47.5. REed that would make it about 48.5 -- the "average RE". 85% of that would be about 41. Do you mean that the best crafted level three engine could only have 41 as the best possible pitch?
"(where most loot will only have 1 or 2 stats that are at most 10% better than crafted, the rest of the stats would be below crafted"
This confused me -- 10% better? or 15% better (100-85) like above?
Or do you mean that every time the game generates a stat there is a 15% chance that it will be between 1% and 10% better than the best crafted stat?
That would mean that if the best looted and REd Pitch for a level three engine was, say, 58 then the best crafted engine would be about 49 and one out of every 6 or seven looted engines, when RE'd, would have a pitch greater than 49.
jd2134
Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:00 pm
#26
i just had a level 2 capaciter re that gave me 785 power drain , 1201 mass stoarge engery level of 853 and a re charge rate of 35 prefect for my ships
nagyt