Shipwright Archive
Thread: SPACE LOOT SYSTEM NEEDs BIG TIME CHANGE ASAP...PLEASE!
GadonThek wrote:
AnzelVincir wrote:
Diorchas wrote:
Ever hear of Linux? Linux is complete garbage compared to Windows XP SP2 yet that statement will spark a firestorm of responses telling me how wonderful Linux is and how horrible XP is. However if it were the other way around... If XP was free to download and Linux were $199 the firestorm would be more like a tiny little flame.
Seriously, do you know ANYTHING about computers? Lets see, even discounting the fact that Linux is free, its more secure than windows, it has better performance, and, its now just as user-friendly.
XP SP2 is a pile of stinking crap, it causes massive compatability issues with dozens of programs, even ones which come WITH windows, how is that superior to Linux in any way? For the record: I use a Linux distro that you pay for, and its worth every penny.
Windows has given us such wonderful things as ActiveX, their piss-poor version of Java which can download and install programs(ie, spyware, virus and trojans) to your computer without even informing you, let alone asking permission.
Why do you think all the major virus-attacks target windows machines? Its because there are dozens, if not hundreds of exploits in Windows. Imagine, if you will, a spiders web. At the center of this web is the first Windows PC to be infected with a self-replicating virus. The virus sends itself out through email to all the users in the First PC's contact list. When the next circle out in the web accesses their email, the virus downloads and installs itself, you dont even need to open the attachment thanks to ActiveX and a handy exploit or 200 in Outlook Express. This continues on, and on, and on, the virus just mails itself out and spreads, and it cant be stopped until an update is released and enough users install it.
Now, lets see what happens in the same situation, assuming all the PCs involved run Linux. The First PC is infected, and the virus sends itself out to the next circle in the web. And thats it. For starters, most Linux users will be using something like Mozilla Thunderbird as a mail utility, which doesnt have half of the exploits of Outlook Express, so its highly unlikely you could design a virus which would self-download without any user input. Then, and here is the thing that sets Linux apart from Windows: the program cant do bugger-all even if it manages to download itself, because it doesnt have Root. It cant install itself, so it cant self-replicate anymore. There are a couple of dozen ways to get easy access to the Administrator privaleges on a Windows machine, but to get Root on a Linux system(if its set up properly), you need to be right there, at the keyboard.
The virus is now dead, having infected, say, a maximum of a couple of hundred machines, depending on the size of the First PC's email contact list.
Apologies for the OT ranting, but your comment was just such total rubbish I had to respond.
rexan:
Rubbish. Sorry, but it is. Many pilots dont have the first idea of what constitutes good loot, and Ive found some real bargains on the bazaar in the past. Any idiot can monitor the Auction channel for someone spamming "sellin teh UBAR COMPONANTS, just 500k EACH PST!!!!11",and for the record, Ive never seen one that was actually worth the asking price there. You will also notice, if you dont selectivly quote whatever suits your argument, that I check vendors as well, I know exactly what Im doing, and Im telling you right now, there are simply not that many good componants out there.
Pilots will usually want to obtain one or two "uber" componants of each type for themselves, and will sell anything else. You wouldnt believe the proportion of items which I buy that are listed because "it has low gen drain, but the damage, mass and EPS are so crap its not even worth RE'ing".....
Ive met, out of about 100 pilots, 2 who have a fully RE'd loadout, many use 50/50 crafted/loot, and the (large) remainder use all crafted or only one or two looted componants.
Well first of all, I happen to know a thing or two about computers. Second, Linux is garbage. Comparing Linux to Windows is like comparing Paris Hilton to Audrey Hepburn. One is cheap and has nothing to it and one is a piece of art inspired by God himself.
You only have the 'impression' that it's more secrure because nobody is using it and hencenobody spends any time attacking it. Windows on the other hand is in use by over 80% of computers world wide and has over 20 years of security development. When joined to an Active Directory Windows XP uses the Kerberos V protocol to authenticate credentials, it natively supports IPv6, MSCHAP v2, PPTP, L2TP, etc. These are all industry standards that are supported by natively by Windows XP. The only wayyou are going to expierience viruses, spyware, adware, etc. with Windows is if you manually disable the security features that come enabled with it. Which people do. I know because I receive a weekly call from my mother on the very subject.
Performance is a whole 'nother issue. Linux only appears to perform well becuase there is nothing to it. Loading Linux onto a PC is like loading Windows XP and then going into Services and disabling 90% of everything and then saying, 'Wow does my PC run fast with this OS".
Gyorgy wrote:
1st_Viduus wrote:
Hmm.
I'm not what I'd consider a 'lucky' person. Quite the opposite in fact.
And I loot, daily, components which are much better than anything I can craft with 90%~ish resources.
And of course you won't find good loot in the bazaar. Anyone who knows what it's worth is keeping it, and anyone who doesn't is selling it to the chassis vendor.
I collect my loot drops, RE them, and sell them on my vendor, and even using poor-grade loot I get as good or better than what can be crafted.
I'd have to say, from what I have seen, and every other pilot I know on Ahazi has seen, your experience is a-typical, not mine.
Granted there are differences server to server, and pilot to pilot, and day to day, and patch to patch.
But *one a day* for great - to - extreme - stat components is the norm, from everyone I've talked to on my server.
Even Gyorgy, who looted a Cert 10 cap the other day with over 50 recharge.
P.S.:
Even the crap loot serves a purpose though...:
I call it "filler".
Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 12-20-2004 11:15 PM
It's sure an advantage to have a pilot along with a shipwright since you can get a lot of items to RE and in the long run to sell too. Once again i wonder how this whole system was supposed to be. But everyone should be able to have it's own pilot and get loot items which can be REd and sold. That might not be pure crafting anymore but at least a way to make money.
And yes i have to confess i looted a 53.2 recharge lvl 10 capacitator, although that is already almost a week ago, eversince i got nothing worth mentioning (and spending at least 3 hours a day since then killing tier 5). And no i can't use it yet, cause it has too much mass for my fighter, so for now it's a nice thing to show off but not more.
You don't have to wonder long how "this whole system" was supposed to work. It all has the single focused goal of getting people into space and keeping them there (especially since the ground game has become somewhat of a bust). From SOE's perspective, this probably gives them the greatest bang for the buck.
You see it in the changes that have come on the heal of JTL going live as well. The new starter ship. The elimination of decay in Deep Space. It's all geared to keeping newbies that went out and bought JTL from experiencing what many perceive to be a broken ground game.
Now I'm not going to be too negative here. JTL is everything I thought it would be. I was an avid XvT player and I hoped and prayed that JTL would be all that with the addition online play. It does live up to those hopes and prayers. However, the integration with the ground game is about what I expected as well--it just plain sucks; you may as well be playing a seperate game.
Gyorgy wrote:
Again... Shipwrights craft ships, cm launchers (cms), missile launchers (missiles) which cannot be looted. And i think it's a myth nobody buys any other crafted ship components (i just bought myself a new lvl 9 shield this week along with 2 space bomb launchers, 1 seismic launcher and 50 space bomb packs and 25 seismic packs, total cost for me of 1.1 mill, so what... am i the only buying this stuff??? hardly).
This represents a massive minority of the products we sell. Shipwrights should not be asked sell thier crafted components against stuff that drops out of the sky for free. When was the last time you looted an entire suit of high quality Composite in one hours time?
I say it again, every crafter now seems to be in the need to do shipwright cause it's the only new crafter prof since the start of the game maybe. Well if the pilots can't buy things at every shipwright out there then i'm really sorry, but that's life.
I don't follow.
And JTL is also based on pilots getting some usable stuff on their own in space (i don't think that was somekind of mistake).
If this was true there would be no Shipwright profession. If it's not changed soon there won't be.
AnzelVincir wrote:
Gyorgy wrote:
Again... Shipwrights craft ships, cm launchers (cms), missile launchers (missiles) which cannot be looted. And i think it's a myth nobody buys any other crafted ship components (i just bought myself a new lvl 9 shield this week along with 2 space bomb launchers, 1 seismic launcher and 50 space bomb packs and 25 seismic packs, total cost for me of 1.1 mill, so what... am i the only buying this stuff??? hardly).
This represents a massive minority of the products we sell. Shipwrights should not be asked sell thier crafted components against stuff that drops out of the sky for free. When was the last time you looted an entire suit of high quality Composite in one hours time?
1 hour for high quality composite suit... Have you got a slight idea how many hours of killing it takes in space to loot good comps (especially from lvl 8, 10)? Do you think a lvl 10 weapon with very good damage and eff but 70k mass and over 50 energy/shot for example will be used straight away by somebody (here we come to the high amount of same lvl items you need to RE those downsides away which takes even more hours. you almost never get perfect comps straight away).
I say it again, every crafter now seems to be in the need to do shipwright cause it's the only new crafter prof since the start of the game maybe. Well if the pilots can't buy things at every shipwright out there then i'm really sorry, but that's life.
I don't follow.
Think about the link of demand and offer, then you might be able to follow.
And JTL is also based on pilots getting some usable stuff on their own in space (i don't think that was somekind of mistake).
If this was true there would be no Shipwright profession. If it's not changed soon there won't be.
If this was true pilots would be (are) more happy with what they are doing and what they get as a reward. And shipwright right now is also a possibility to make comps fit to personal demands (on energy, mass, and all the other stats on a ship component).
HULK SMASH GREEDY MORONS!
To quote another Shipwright: "The only Shipwrights moaning about how 'uber' the space loot is, are the ones who have NO IDEA how to craft good stuff, or cant get hold of the right resources."
When I mastered Imperial pilot, do you know how many looted parts I used? Three, a pre-nerf droid interface, a booster and a capacitor. EVERYTHING ELSE was crafted, blasters, shields, armour, engine, launchers....all crafted. Ive shelled out nearly 3 million credits to other Shipwrights so far(I dont have the cash or inclination to lay my hands on resources of high enough quality to craft my own bits yet), and every other pilot I talk to who's above Tier 1 and has a bank account of more than 100k uses 90% crafted over looted for everything except caps and boosters.
The loot system is fine as it is, it is NOT overpowered in comparison to Crafted items, except in the cases of boosters, caps and engine YPR(which should be fixed by bumping crafted versions, not nerfing looted ones). You do NOT deserve the right to make "teh ubar" componants just because you mastered the profession, put some damn effort into crafting good stuff before you try and destroy one of the most entertaining content to be put into SWG since its inception!
GadonThek wrote:
AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
HULK SMASH GREEDY MORONS!
To quote another Shipwright: "The only Shipwrights moaning about how 'uber' the space loot is, are the ones who have NO IDEA how to craft good stuff, or cant get hold of the right resources."
When I mastered Imperial pilot, do you know how many looted parts I used? Three, a pre-nerf droid interface, a booster and a capacitor. EVERYTHING ELSE was crafted, blasters, shields, armour, engine, launchers....all crafted. Ive shelled out nearly 3 million credits to other Shipwrights so far(I dont have the cash or inclination to lay my hands on resources of high enough quality to craft my own bits yet), and every other pilot I talk to who's above Tier 1 and has a bank account of more than 100k uses 90% crafted over looted for everything except caps and boosters.
The loot system is fine as it is, it is NOT overpowered in comparison to Crafted items, except in the cases of boosters, caps and engine YPR(which should be fixed by bumping crafted versions, not nerfing looted ones). You do NOT deserve the right to make "teh ubar" componants just because you mastered the profession, put some damn effort into crafting good stuff before you try and destroy one of the most entertaining content to be put into SWG since its inception!
Well I mastered in 4 days, and do you know how many crafted components I used?
My chassis.
That's it.
Everything else looted ( & re'd after tier 3, didn't know about it until then).
To this day, (and I'm msw now) I'm using 85% LOOTed & RE'd components.
Pretty sad when most of myown crafting doesn't go in my own ships.
Most of what we can craft is not as good as what can be looted. I'm not asking for a(nother) nerf to loot.
I wouldn't mind a boost/balance to SW comps & crafting.
People are going on about the "Uber Crafted Engines".... uh-huh...
Make me a cert 7 engine with 74 on all YPR and 83 speed, please. Oh and make sure it's under 20k mass and uses less than 2k reactor drain.
You can't do it, I don't care what resources you have available. You can't RE a cert 7 like that either, but you certainly can do a Cert 6 like that. For the pilot, it's the same thing.
Or how about those shields...? I have a Cert 8 in my oppressor, 2555.3 front and rear, 13.85 recharge, 18k mass, and 2100 reactor drain.
Craft me one exactly like that or better...?
And no, I'm imperial, I didn't use any shield shunts to do it. Straight out of the sky like the parts came to me.
See the problem? Name a part, best you can make, and I bet I can find you a looted/re'd better.
I used 93% average resources on everything required to make a reactor, and the best I could do was a 38k mass 18.8k reactor.
That thing is HUGE. I have an 18.8 RE'd at the same cert level (9) that's 21k mass.
I have a 31.3k energy reactor that has 23k mass, at cert 10.
HOW am I supposed to compete with loot!? I would have to sell my crappy cert 9 for over 100k to make a *fair* profit (even discounting the critical fail {on exp.} version I got to make first), and anyone at all can gather the parts in Kessel or any tier4 duty mission and get them RE'd for *the magic price!* FREE!
As for the idea that I can't be competitive really as a shipwright "because I can't get the resources" is even more silly.
I won't pay for 10 accounts so I can put down 98 harvesters and scoop out the "RARE SPAWN" resources, nor will I pay the person who does the unrealistic 20 cpu or more he wants for those very same resources --- resources we have no choice but to use, because comps require named resources in large quantity. Of course, the armorsmith will pay 20cpu... he's selling for a touch more, and the customers will pay his price without question, unlike our customers.
I spent 3 days, 8 hours each day, hopping from planet to planet surveying each and every square inch I could for a "decent" quality Gravitonic Fiberplast... riiiiigghht... I'm starting to doubt there is such a spawn. I found some... it was crap, and there were 16 harvesters all over the spawn -- the only part that wasn't covered was in someone's city limits, and was down to 18% and lower concentration, or the ground wouldn't permit due to landscape.
That was helpful.
And if I did pay it, I'd have to pass that on to my customers... you know, the same ones that call us thieves at 10cpu? LOL pilots don't have a clue what it's worth - to them they see they can sell a looted comp for 1k per cert, they expect to pay at best double... and when they see different they want to save their loot that much more.
Of course there are a great many people who understand, and will pay the worth... but worth starts to wear thin at 20cpu regardless.
Why would someone want to pay 35k x 11 to fit his mid-level ship when he knows he's going to replace it in a day or 2?
Worse - when a pilot reaches Ace, he has almost no more need of a Shipwright -- for the most part, he'll get his master ship(s), fit them once, and that is it. Maybe he'll do a refit in a couple weeks. He'll hang on to those parts, you can bet your bottom dollar, and if he starts switching things up he'll have that AND the decent loot he picked up.... where's shipwright now?
Or even worse, he hands some of it down to his guildmates... another new set of customers lost...
We're being relegated to Armoury Service, supplying ammution a for the *very few* expendables in space.
Consider, I have cert 4 un-re'd comps that far far outperform my cert 7 manufactured with 80-95% resources. PROBLEM?!
Consider too that Shipwrights can only make ODD#comp certs, and only ODD# loot drops are crap.... sounds to me like the devs had a sense of humor when someone asked for what shipwrights can make beat looted... since we can't make even#'s...
Of course, that's irrelevant anyhow, since pilots get the certs in pairs, 4 AND 5 cert are exactly the same thing, for all intents and purposes.
All in all, I wouldn't say the problem is in the loot drops. Far from it. I agree the loot drops are fine.
I'd say it was the poorly designed shipwright profession.
Nor do I want to be able to 'by default' craft *the best* parts.
What I would like is to be able to compete with the Free Parts Drops, by being equal or a smidgeon better.
Like say, just as an example, (I'm not suggesting I know how to fix this issue)maybe slightly (emphasise slightly) lower stats, but guaranteed lower *energy drain* or *mass* or some other stat which requires a sacrifice from the player choosing to use Loot versus Crafted, yet still gives them that added bonus to use the looted/re'd part.
GREED has nothing to do with it my friends... expecting to be able to make a reasonable enough to pay my investments (buildings, harvestors, a factory, crafting station, et cetera et al - not even going to include the wasted millions spent grinding), maintenances, resources, buy power... enough to be able to craft a reasonable product for a customer on demand, at a decent price... with a profit margin big enough to buy me my own supplies, waste a little experimenting, maybe a couple of decorations, a blue rug adhesive... I mean, it's not like I can loot that while I'm either crafting or in space now is it...
Expecting a reasonable return, is what it is. Greed...? hardly.
There are always going to be some at either extreme, but we're in the middle of this bell curve asking for some fairness, that's all.
And please don't compareshipwright to weaponsmith or armorsmith or chef or any other ground profession. Ground Game and Space Game are apples and oranges. You don't see 500 allmind / 55 duration crates of Ahrissa dropping from the mobs outside Coronet, now do you...?
I'd best stop now :}
u962281 wrote:
Huh. Reasonable thread by a shipwright on the fact that 90% ofthe componentsShipwrights can make can be outdone by Space Loot (Yes, not all loot components are uber, but a lot are...) Then the posting Shipwright then gets lit up by two PILOTS. Hmmm...
There is nothing wrong with the loot system.
I'm a shipwright and a master pilot. I think the loot system is FUN.I sell plenty of crafted components to people who want specific task items. Light weight reactors and shields are very popular. I sell missiles, and missle launchers. I also sell the ocasional chassis. I charge 10k per RE level when a pilot brings me a set of items to RE. No mater how good your space loot is, RE'd space loot will be better. And to have RE'd loot, you guessed it, you need a shipwright.
The problem is that everyone and their grandma went shipwright when JTL came out. And now there is a glut of ShipWrights in the economy all trying to justify their existance. The hard fact is that a new equilibrrium will need to be reached. And that equilibrium will see far fewer ShipWrights than we have now.
Message Edited by rexan on 12-20-2004 04:34 PM
I can't get the cash to get the resources to stock my vendors to get the cash to get the resources (
)!As I said before... you can't make equipment to match my Reverse Engineered kits. I know, because I'm a shipwright too.