Shipwright Archive
Thread: The new Offical Full Factory support thread. Pros vs Cons
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Strudle
Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:14 am
#1
Yes we have not had this debate realyl since JTL came out. Its time again for this community to decide why we are the only proffession that does get full support.
Arguements for:
- Allows for easy uniformish duplication of the same object.
-Easier to produce larger quanitites making it easier to offer fully stocked vendors
-Allows for more variety in the stats on components as more time is used creating different components then hand making the same component.
Arguments against:
-Risk of flooding the market
-Increase in amount of shiwprights to it being easier to keep vendors stocked
-Some claim it takes the focus away from the customer.
My take? Shipwright already isnt in high demand in comparison to chef and armorsmith because it seems once the grind to masterp ilot ends, there is not a whole lot of content left for the player. Therefor our demand is already inhibited and we need large amounts of resources to produce a small amount of product. So the flooding of the market is not going to be too much of a risk.
On the lgihter side I am the only shipwright on Bria who keeps a fully stocked blueprints vendor and compoents for tiers 3-Ace. I basiclly dont stock the lower tiers because the low profits from those are simply not worth the time it takes to hand craft it all. Most of my components are uniformish in stats because i tend to get sick of re-experimenting and re-assembling the same thing.
Full factory support will mean i will be able to offer products to all levels of pilots, offer more variety in components especialyl weapons and boosters. It will also mean an always stocked vendor and it means i will be more happy to custom craft for my customers.
In the end most people dont care too much weither their stuff is hand crafted or bulk supplied, jsut as long as their ships are filled with good components.
Full factory support = Happy customers and happy shipwrights.
Dezrick
Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:07 am
#2
RSI is going to force me toget factory support or give up Shipwright. 
Thunderbyte
Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:00 pm
#3
Officially I'm going to vote 'no' on this....again.
I just don't see where we really need full factory support. For me, as a pilot, as I leveled up and even at master my main concern is not allways having the best of the best parts because the best of the best varies depending on the ship you're working with, and what fighting style you use. As a shipwright this has shown me that there are many different ways to make a part great. Add that to the fact that there isn't a very high demand compared to other crafting professions and to me it just makes sense to not make high quantities of the same thing.
I've seen this debated all through beta, and every week since. At this point I'm convinced that the devs will not change this part of the profession unless you can make a better argument about why this is beneficial to the profession, and not just because it makes your life easier. If you had some type of argument that proved that partial factory support is damaging the profession then they'd hear you.
SandLizard
Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:05 pm
#4
and a short version of another of my posts:
if we could get factory support for only Mark I and II components, then YES to factory support.
otherwise, if the above is not possible, then NO to factory support. I don't want a flooded market from mass-producing shipwrights, and I enjoy trying to do better then the one I just crafted on the next high level part I make.
if we could get factory support for only Mark I and II components, then YES to factory support.
otherwise, if the above is not possible, then NO to factory support. I don't want a flooded market from mass-producing shipwrights, and I enjoy trying to do better then the one I just crafted on the next high level part I make.
Loki_Ashaman
Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:53 am
#5
My votes same as it has been since beta: No, with exception of armor (only component I've had people ask for in bulk).
Jagged-F3l
Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:19 am
#6
I vote "no" (comments below).
Finally, I would like to add that I do support a compromise to full factory support. The only argument I have heard for "full factory support" is the "three amazing success rule" (i.e., if in the process of crafting a component I experience three or more amazing successes, I should turn that into a manufacturing schematic). I can't tell you how many times I have experienced a fantastic crafting session and wanted to replicate those results. However, this doesn't require "full" factory support. In these cases, I would be content to produce a limited manufacturing schematic, perhaps something that only allows a limited run of 10-24 of the particular item. In addition, I do not support any manufacturing support of chassis.
Strudle wrote:
Yes we have not had this debate realyl since JTL came out. Its time again for this community to decide why we are the only proffession that does get full support.
Arguements for:
- Allows for easy uniformish duplication of the same object.
The devs don't want this, being one of the primary quoted reasons for not providing factory support.
-Easier to produce larger quanitites making it easier to offer fully stocked vendors
And hence, easier for shipwrights with the backing of an entire guild and/or player city to put small businessmen out of business.
-Allows for more variety in the stats on components as more time is used creating different components then hand making the same component.
I disagree with this point completely. For starters, it contradicts your first point. In addition, it runs counter to my experience with other crafting professions.
Arguments against:
-Risk of flooding the market
-Increase in amount of shiwprights to it being easier to keep vendors stocked
-Some claim it takes the focus away from the customer.
It isn't a claim, it is a fact. In my opinion, they should take factory support away from every profession. If I received the same treatment from my armorsmith and weaponsmith that I give pilots that come into my shop, I'd be a lot happier.
My take? Shipwright already isnt in high demand in comparison to chef and armorsmith because it seems once the grind to masterp ilot ends, there is not a whole lot of content left for the player. Therefor our demand is already inhibited and we need large amounts of resources to produce a small amount of product. So the flooding of the market is not going to be too much of a risk.
The content is in running your business. I would say that 80% of my sales our custom orders, and 80% of those custom orders involves sitting down and discussing the customers' needs. I enjoy talking to them about their tactics, what works for them, what doesn't work for them, and what ship and components might best suit their needs. Sometimes this involves educating them as to components' statistics. Sometimes this involves them education me as to the realities of the space game (which I turn around and use myself, as I am a pilot as well). Somtimes I even go up with them and they show me problems that they experience, and we talk about what we can do to fix those problems. I'm convinced that content in an MMOG is what you make of the game; the game merely provides an environment (it isn't unlike real life).
On the lgihter side I am the only shipwright on Bria who keeps a fully stocked blueprints vendor and compoents for tiers 3-Ace. I basiclly dont stock the lower tiers because the low profits from those are simply not worth the time it takes to hand craft it all. Most of my components are uniformish in stats because i tend to get sick of re-experimenting and re-assembling the same thing.
This is too bad. I don't mean this offensively in any way; however, it seems to me that you're one of these masters that haven't mastered the profession, but merely ground it out. Forget about your vendors and work with the customers. When you see someone come into your shop, go out and talk to them. I also strongly encourage you to become a pilot if you're not one. It provides tremendous insight into your customers' experiences. Again, I don't mean go out and grind out pilot in a weekend, I mean actually ace the profession.
Full factory support will mean i will be able to offer products to all levels of pilots, offer more variety in components especialyl weapons and boosters. It will also mean an always stocked vendor and it means i will be more happy to custom craft for my customers.
I actually keep a diverse mix of components on my vendor, and have found it only serves to provide customers with a reference. More often than not, the customer will come back and ask me, "You know that engine you have on your vendor, can you make me one of those, but with more blah-blah-blah?"
Most of my vendor sales are paint kits, texture kits, repair kits, and missile launchers and packs.
In the end most people dont care too much weither their stuff is hand crafted or bulk supplied, jsut as long as their ships are filled with good components.
Base on what I have already provided for feedback, I have to largely disagree with this statement. Even when my customers pull something off my vendor, they more often than not place a custom order for that same component with a list of tweaks.
Full factory support = Happy customers and happy shipwrights.
Disagree, disagree, disagree.
Full factory support = Unhappy customers and lazy shipwrights.
Message Edited by Jagged-F3l on 04-06-2005 09:20 AM
joinrdy
Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:48 pm
#8
yes....yes....yes
lets be real, the idea of being able to mass produce at an extremely high number of partsis not realistic, and even if you are able to do it, you have a huge risk of profitt loss....resource cost, demand...ect
limited schems would be great. like 100 max or maybe even 50, with a production time of 4-700 per part made, there is little risk to someone over whelming the market, or at least that is how i see it....cause if you mass produce junk, you might as well through your credits away.
factories does not mean the end of custom parts, you can still craft by hand, factories would just be an OPTION.....not the only way.
i am with many here who have realized that custom crafting is rare, and most buy from what is on the vendor....i have 3 vendors up, and all have advertisements for custom orders, yet everyone seems to just buy what i have on the vendor, no orders for custom parts.
reality of the SW industry is mass produced parts are in more demand then custom made parts, it's not like we can change the look on them, just tweek a few stats, and not even that much...loot wins out soo much that it hard to compete with it, fully stocked vendors would give you the best chance to do it. look at our own "best" parts thread and realize these are to one stat, not an over all better part.
bozotheclowno
Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:55 pm
#9
Lack of factory support = Lack of interest in the space end of the game.
Granted there are a few people out there that LOVE space for the 'twitch' base gameplay and the 1on1 nature of getting a ship built *JUST RIGHT*.
This being said I was a shipwright for 3-4 months? I don't know, I mastered the day it came out, and tried to keep a vendor stocked, had very loyal customers but with a full school schedule and work schedule I had no time to sit at my computer for 6-12 hours every 2-3 days and restock a vendor AND keep up with custom orders. I have a 'well known' name on my server as being a crafter, I was one of the first Architects on the server, helped level chef prices by undercuting my way thru it and hoped that JTL would let me do what I always wanted to do in this game but never got to, which was run the best ship business on the server. I wasn't able too, I had a life, and responsibilities I had to take care of before devoting life to a game, I was able to do Arch without a factory, demand wasn't huge when the server first came up I used guildies lots, etc to keep from buying resources. When they did add factory support, or rather remove the need for identical walls in a factory I did even better. Then with chef I was able to jump over start up factories (I maintained 10-40 factories all running at once during this time) take 2-3 hours a week actually crafting, put a post on the forums telling people I was buying said meat for said cpu and buy it all in 1 sitting. I then had my time to grind my jedi, enjoy the combat aspects of the game, and enjoy PVP, which most of you don't, either because you don't want to or you suck at said aspect of the game.
I'm sorry that for you all you're good at is crafting I really am, but keeping people who know how to run an ingame business out of the market because you get the 12+ hours every 2-3 days restocking a vendor or you don't mind having empty vendors, its just petty. I dropped shipwright, I was one of the pioneers trying to get factory support for shipwrights. And talking too my old customers lately I feel for them, they can't find anyone 'like me' who understood how to craft, and how things would interact and what to experiment on and what not too. Its sad I wish I could help everyone but I can't I wish I could have had factory support and done what I wanted to ingame, but I wasn't able to convince enough people that it was important. Now you guys have been stuck with an invisible correspondent who cared nothing about the profession, just that he got to maintain his in to the dev-forum, and instead of having someone who actually wanted to see the profession succeed you're stuck with a dead profession that no one cares about, enjoy, really you brought it on yourselves.
PS. The worthless correspondent I was refering too was styx...
Granted there are a few people out there that LOVE space for the 'twitch' base gameplay and the 1on1 nature of getting a ship built *JUST RIGHT*.
This being said I was a shipwright for 3-4 months? I don't know, I mastered the day it came out, and tried to keep a vendor stocked, had very loyal customers but with a full school schedule and work schedule I had no time to sit at my computer for 6-12 hours every 2-3 days and restock a vendor AND keep up with custom orders. I have a 'well known' name on my server as being a crafter, I was one of the first Architects on the server, helped level chef prices by undercuting my way thru it and hoped that JTL would let me do what I always wanted to do in this game but never got to, which was run the best ship business on the server. I wasn't able too, I had a life, and responsibilities I had to take care of before devoting life to a game, I was able to do Arch without a factory, demand wasn't huge when the server first came up I used guildies lots, etc to keep from buying resources. When they did add factory support, or rather remove the need for identical walls in a factory I did even better. Then with chef I was able to jump over start up factories (I maintained 10-40 factories all running at once during this time) take 2-3 hours a week actually crafting, put a post on the forums telling people I was buying said meat for said cpu and buy it all in 1 sitting. I then had my time to grind my jedi, enjoy the combat aspects of the game, and enjoy PVP, which most of you don't, either because you don't want to or you suck at said aspect of the game.
I'm sorry that for you all you're good at is crafting I really am, but keeping people who know how to run an ingame business out of the market because you get the 12+ hours every 2-3 days restocking a vendor or you don't mind having empty vendors, its just petty. I dropped shipwright, I was one of the pioneers trying to get factory support for shipwrights. And talking too my old customers lately I feel for them, they can't find anyone 'like me' who understood how to craft, and how things would interact and what to experiment on and what not too. Its sad I wish I could help everyone but I can't I wish I could have had factory support and done what I wanted to ingame, but I wasn't able to convince enough people that it was important. Now you guys have been stuck with an invisible correspondent who cared nothing about the profession, just that he got to maintain his in to the dev-forum, and instead of having someone who actually wanted to see the profession succeed you're stuck with a dead profession that no one cares about, enjoy, really you brought it on yourselves.
PS. The worthless correspondent I was refering too was styx...
Message Edited by bozotheclowno on 04-07-2005 06:12 PM
Jagged-F3l
Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:54 pm
#10
joinrdy wrote:
yes....yes....yes
lets be real, the idea of being able to mass produce at an extremely high number of partsis not realistic, and even if you are able to do it, you have a huge risk of profitt loss....resource cost, demand...ect
With all due respect, you are so wrong about this notion. There are crafters on each server with the backing of large guilds and/or player cities. When I say backing, I mean that there are well organized bodies of players that require their members to donate so many lots. They also requireparticipation in the deployment of harvesters and collection of resources for their crafters. This organizations go as far as to give their members the harvesters for this purpose, and believe me that they are the biggest and best harvesters that money can buy.
limited schems would be great. like 100 max or maybe even 50, with a production time of 4-700 per part made, there is little risk to someone over whelming the market, or at least that is how i see it....cause if you mass produce junk, you might as well through your credits away.
factories does not mean the end of custom parts, you can still craft by hand, factories would just be an OPTION.....not the only way.
i am with many here who have realized that custom crafting is rare, and most buy from what is on the vendor....i have 3 vendors up, and all have advertisements for custom orders, yet everyone seems to just buy what i have on the vendor, no orders for custom parts.
A good pilot will seek to build a relationship with a good shipwright. Just as a good rifleman will seek to build a relationship with a good weaponsmith. This relationship will be based on trust, reliability, dependability, and the quality of the craftman's product. Grant it, I have a decently stocked vendor as well, but 80% of my revenue comes from custom orders that come from pilots that have developed a relationship with me or references from those pilots.
More to point, what is the purpose of reducing the profession to a mindless set of actions with no interaction with others? If this is what you want, then MMOGs aren't for you.
reality of the SW industry is mass produced parts are in more demand then custom made parts, it's not like we can change the look on them, just tweek a few stats, and not even that much...loot wins out soo much that it hard to compete with it, fully stocked vendors would give you the best chance to do it. look at our own "best" parts thread and realize these are to one stat, not an over all better part.
I strongly disagree with this statement. While it is rewarding to find that new resource that let's you crank out a reactor with a certain generation rate, this would never do for my customers. They usually look at my vendor and come into my back room to ask me, "Hey Soontir', could you make a reactor like you have on the vendor with a little less mass, and yes, I'm willing to sacrifice a little generate rate." Of course, using a reactor isn't the best example because there are so few stats to tweak on this component. However, when I consider the large number of variations on weapons I have crafted for players, it would be impossible for me to keep a vendor stocked with weapons that would satisfy even half of those players.
warpish
Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:29 am
#11
Vote NO again.
Factory support is not required or even desired for the shipwright profession. Customer support comes from crafting to the exact needs of the buyer. Factory support means you craft what you think is best and if you have deep pockets or guild support, the custom shipwright is driven out of business by the low price even though taking the time generally produces a better product and often a fun exchange between players.
While it isn't alot of fun to crank out piles of nearly the same item just to keep vendors stocked, keeping vendors stocked shouldn't be what is fun about being a shipwright. With factory support, custom orders go the wayside, and that would be a mistake for the profession. Consumables deserve multiple run support, but, components and chassis do not. Chassis due to the high quantity of resources required, components because of the need to tweak the product to meet a customers need. If making money offline is a way to have fun, be any other crafting profession with factory support and leave the Shipwright profession to the shipwrights.
joinrdy
Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:07 am
#12
JaggedF3l wrote:
joinrdy wrote:
yes....yes....yes
lets be real, the idea of being able to mass produce at an extremely high number of partsis not realistic, and even if you are able to do it, you have a huge risk of profitt loss....resource cost, demand...ect
With all due respect, you are so wrong about this notion. There are crafters on each server with the backing of large guilds and/or player cities. When I say backing, I mean that there are well organized bodies of players that require their members to donate so many lots. They also requireparticipation in the deployment of harvesters and collection of resources for their crafters. This organizations go as far as to give their members the harvesters for this purpose, and believe me that they are the biggest and best harvesters that money can buy.
very hard to imagine, but i guess i can see this. But considering the massive resource cost to make the parts we make, even this kind of guild would have to shift focus from all their other crafters to supply the SW...doesn't really make sense...best harvesters money can buy are 13-14 BER as far as in know, and most everyone uses these anyway....i guess i could see this but sounds more like a conspiracy theory, guilds that require you to drop everything to harvest for the crafters probbaly would give there stuff away to the guildies, just a thought....
limited schems would be great. like 100 max or maybe even 50, with a production time of 4-700 per part made, there is little risk to someone over whelming the market, or at least that is how i see it....cause if you mass produce junk, you might as well through your credits away.
factories does not mean the end of custom parts, you can still craft by hand, factories would just be an OPTION.....not the only way.
i am with many here who have realized that custom crafting is rare, and most buy from what is on the vendor....i have 3 vendors up, and all have advertisements for custom orders, yet everyone seems to just buy what i have on the vendor, no orders for custom parts.
A good pilot will seek to build a relationship with a good shipwright. Just as a good rifleman will seek to build a relationship with a good weaponsmith. This relationship will be based on trust, reliability, dependability, and the quality of the craftman's product. Grant it, I have a decently stocked vendor as well, but 80% of my revenue comes from custom orders that come from pilots that have developed a relationship with me or references from those pilots.
More to point, what is the purpose of reducing the profession to a mindless set of actions with no interaction with others? If this is what you want, then MMOGs aren't for you.
not too sure where you are going with the good pilot/good shipwright thing. and the weaponsmith/rifleman comparison is onlyviable if you happen to come across krayt tissues or some kind of weapon enhancement, sure i have friends that are pilots and like wise am friends with weaponsmiths, but factory support for weaponsmiths doesn't stop them from having good relationships, why would it us?....adding factory support does not end the relationships you have with your pilots, at any given time you can custom make a part for them regardless of factory support....factory support does not mean you have to change your game at all, don't use them if you dont want too
reality of the SW industry is mass produced parts are in more demand then custom made parts, it's not like we can change the look on them, just tweek a few stats, and not even that much...loot wins out soo much that it hard to compete with it, fully stocked vendors would give you the best chance to do it. look at our own "best" parts thread and realize these are to one stat, not an over all better part.
I strongly disagree with this statement. While it is rewarding to find that new resource that let's you crank out a reactor with a certain generation rate, this would never do for my customers. They usually look at my vendor and come into my back room to ask me, "Hey Soontir', could you make a reactor like you have on the vendor with a little less mass, and yes, I'm willing to sacrifice a little generate rate." Of course, using a reactor isn't the best example because there are so few stats to tweak on this component. However, when I consider the large number of variations on weapons I have crafted for players, it would be impossible for me to keep a vendor stocked with weapons that would satisfy even half of those players.
again adding factory support doesn't mean that you can't still customize parts for those who want it.....why would it be hard to stock 5-10, or even20 of 5-6 types of weapons??not a strong argument, i have 4-5 types of each weapon on my vendor with emphasis put into speed, damage, vs.shiled/armor and mass, and an open invite to anyone who would want something different...factories would not stop this, just allow me to go from 5 to 20 of each stocked with the customization ability still there
Message Edited by joinrdy on 04-08-2005 01:08 AM
Strudle
Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:19 am
#13
joinrdy wrote:
yes....yes....yes
lets be real, the idea of being able to mass produce at an extremely high number of partsis not realistic, and even if you are able to do it, you have a huge risk of profitt loss....resource cost, demand...ect
limited schems would be great. like 100 max or maybe even 50, with a production time of 4-700 per part made, there is little risk to someone over whelming the market, or at least that is how i see it....cause if you mass produce junk, you might as well through your credits away.
factories does not mean the end of custom parts, you can still craft by hand, factories would just be an OPTION.....not the only way.
i am with many here who have realized that custom crafting is rare, and most buy from what is on the vendor....i have 3 vendors up, and all have advertisements for custom orders, yet everyone seems to just buy what i have on the vendor, no orders for custom parts.
reality of the SW industry is mass produced parts are in more demand then custom made parts, it's not like we can change the look on them, just tweek a few stats, and not even that much...loot wins out soo much that it hard to compete with it, fully stocked vendors would give you the best chance to do it. look at our own "best" parts thread and realize these are to one stat, not an over all better part.
I run the largest shipwright shop on Bria. Over 200 handcrafted parts. Yes i gladly do custom orders, but I rarely get 1 a week. My components are in great variety and I get plenty of business.
I think the "custom order" shipwright wont go, but many people want to go to a vendor and immediatly get what they want from a vendor....rather then having to spend hours or days waiting for someone to custom make a common part.
Lets face it, JTL has lost its luster and we arent in high demand compared to Chef, Armor orBuffs. Therefor should that extreme mass producer ever come about, he will be disappointed to find that his stuff isnt always flying off the vendor.
I say give us full factory support and see what happens. I dont think I should be forced to hand craft 200 components by hand a week so that I can offer my customers the best stocked shop in the galaxy. Full factory support will be better for both shipwrights and customers.
Those of you who dont want to use factories are free to chose so.
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