Shipwright Archive
Thread: Shipwrights Unite!!! Pricing issues
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NordaIspe
Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:47 am
#105
CerionSkydreamer wrote:
NordaIspe wrote:
I started doing SW and sold and will sell the noob ships on the baazar. Go ahead and buy them since I was going to destory them making some profit from nothing is better than making no profit. The big kick in the pants is the fact that the difference in practice and create prototye is so minute that its stupid to use practice mode for SW untill you are at the higher chasis's.
Please, please promise me that you'll use practice mode on tier 4 ships. And if you have already, thank you.
oh, and I forgot to mention one observation in your cost analysis. What happens if no quality resources shift under your immobile harvesters? Yes you could harvest poor quality, but that's the difference between your operation and mine I guess. You favor security over profit potential, while I'll try not to take a loss on profit potential which introduces a bit of risk. Until SW grind, I only put down harvesters if at least one of the major attributes was above 800.
Message Edited by CerionSkydreamer on 11-02-2004 03:36 AM
Please note I said "untill you are at the higher chasis's" since they use a ton of resources each but the tier 0's only use 5k resources.
I use the swapped locations to get whatever happens to fall in that location if junk stuff spawns I spawn the junk and sell it for 2 cpu or less. I use my real lots to get the good quality stuff but sometimes like the last spawn my static harvestors were ona 90's spawn of some very good Iron.
Rexan:
Lot swaps can be considered an exploit. I dont think you should be advertizing this fact.
I guess in all our shouting you forget to read the rest of the posts. If you had, you would realize that most shipwrights are trying to avoid this profession going the same route that architect did. When you sell your wares for less that the market value of the raw materials, you are hurting the profession as a whole because you setting a bad precedence.
Rexan Ryu
Wow so you dont read your galaxies trade forums very often do you? If you did you would see threads for lot swaps ALL THE TIME. Its not an exploit since SOE decided to let me create 10 players per account I can do with my characters what I want if I only want them to be harvesting stuff then so be it.
I'm selling noob ships for noob prices whats wrong with that? You people that want more than 10k for a noob ship are crazy, I never used a player made noob ship ever! I got free ones from the trainers if it got destoryed do you think I repaired it? Nope destoryed the deed and got a new one. Yes I can see its bad to do that for the upper ships I'm not debateing that, what I have a problem with is the noob ships (tier 0).
More I think about it how am I selling on the baazar less than market price for resources? With my farm I sell my junk resources at 1-2cpu depending on what sells and what doesn't. So if they all go for 1cpu thats 5k.
Brilyn
Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:02 am
#106
< oh, and the neophyte crafter always plans for the best, and hopes for the best. True crafters know that you plan for the worst and hope for the best. That is why in my above calculation I also used 2 cpu power. A built in cusion helps absorb the fluctuations in the market. >
Your condescension is stinking up the place.
For the most part, I harvest my own Power.
Thus the "1.5cpu for power" *is* planning for the "worst".
Feel free to throw out more erroneous assumptions.
I'm trying desperately not to make the assumption that "the people who are flaming me are morons" but all these assumptions the two of ye are making are just feeding into it.
My preferance is for civil discussion. (And I've dropped the 'economics is a load of BS' for that reason)
Any chance we could have that?
sm1550
Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:07 pm
#107
moody628 wrote:
Well, it will be interesting to see if Shipwrights sell themselves out as a profession like Architects did.
For your consideration.
Steel at 6cpu
Aluminum at 4cpu
LGO at 4cpu
Inert Petrochem at 2cpu
I suspect that these are fare rates for resources on all galaxies.
Novice Ship
2k of Steel = 12k
1k of Aluminum = 4k
1k of LGO = 4k
1k of Inert Petrochem = 2k
This means that the base cost of the resources for a Novice ship would be 22k! This doesn't cover your overhead expenses such as your tools and stations, or your vendor costs, or your house maintainence, ect. So, the actually cost per blueprint is actually even more!
So, if you sell a blueprint on the bazaar, you are giving away 16k of your hard earned money, AND you're giving away your time and your profit.
Simple rule of business is this... wholesale is 3x cost, retail is 5x cost. There are a multitude of more complex formulae, but that one's simple and straight forward.
This puts a Novice starship at 66k for wholesale and 110k for retail.
And there are shipwrights who are claiming that this is ripping people off.
Excuse me?
The last metrics I saw for my server (probably 2 months old) is that we have 3100 characters. Given alt accounts and such, that's probably 2000 players. If HALF the players on my server buy JtL, then I have 1000 possible customers. Now, imagine that only 1/3 of them want to mess with shipwright... that means that on average, each shipwright is going to have 3 customers!!! Ever. Even if it's only 5%, then I have only 20 customers. Now, I figure I can expect the average pilot to go through 3 ships on their way up, and then with decay, maybe they'll need a new chassis every 6 months. Odds are with loot drops and RE, they're never going to need components from me... just the chassis blueprints.
So... what happens? If I train my client base to expect 6k blueprints, I'm going through the hassle of shipwright for as little as 3 * 6k, or 18k every 6 months. If we go the other extreme, and say 20 clients and price a high-end blueprint at 10x the low one, then I'm still looking at only 20 * 60k, or 1.2 million every 6 months.
I can run through a quarter of that amount in one scan of the world bazaar... or setting up one round of heavy harvesters to run for 8 days.
So, my total income from a year of shipsmithing would run my overhead for about 2 months.
So... think of it i these terms. A car made of cheap materials (Hyundai) runs 9k in the real world. A bass boat made of cheap materials runs 40k in the real world. In SWG, a bike made from grinding materials costs 10k... so shouldn't a ship made from grinding materials cost at least 45k?
I would strongly urge ALL shipwrights to set your prices based on the cost of resources on your server. Sell to your friends and in bulk at wholesale rates (3x what the value of the resources is), and sell to the man on the street at retail (5x the value of the resources).
And when you make something out of that sweet steel that has OQ 956 and sells for 12cpu, price accordingly.
Didn't bother to read the rest of the thread because of the one thing in Red above. General rule of thumb for real businesses in a perfectly competitive market is 10-20% mark-upabovewhat you are paying to get the item. So ifit costs you 20k to make an item, 22-25k is what a perfectlycompetitive market would dictate that you sell your ship for. Ifyou are the wholesaler and a retaileris buying your items to re-sell, their price would be 27.5k-30k.
That being said, this is a game. Price what you want (whether high or low). The majority of us non-shipwrights are never going to pay a ton forblueprints, because its easier togo to a friend shipwright who will usuallycharge at cost or just above cost. The only people that might get screwed by an artificially inflated price are those people either not in a guild or those that have plenty of cash to burn. I guess shipwrights would be smart to artificially fix their prices, because most of the people in this game don't take the time to shop around for the best deal, so have at it.
NordaIspe
Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:18 pm
#108
I'm really tired of these pricing debates. Look if someone is selling their item for x price then they are content with recieving x price as their reward. Sure you can buy that product and sell it for more GO AHEAD AND DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are satisfying the original creator AND you so dont say that person is selling for a loss because they are happy with"X" price and the difference between your price and theirs DOES NOT MATTER!
I mine my own resources using lot swaps only have 10 down but they have been in the same place now forever so the cost of the harvestor has been paid off a long long time ago so the only cost to me is the maintaince and power (with merchant discount it really drops the price).
I started doing SW and sold and will sell the noob ships on the baazar. Go ahead and buy them since I was going to destory them making some profit from nothing is better than making no profit. The big kick in the pants is the fact that the difference in practice and create prototye is so minute that its stupid to use practice mode for SW untill you are at the higher chasis's.
If someone is selling a lot less than you and still turning a profit maybe you should look at your prices. Saw someone selling a Y Wing blueprint for 300k went a few shops down and got it for 85k. Came back 3 days later and all of the expensive guys ships were still there whereas the other guy was sold out.
Everyone is out to make as much money as they possibley can and that is whats killing the economy not the power gamers or grinders.
Jacet
Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:46 pm
#109
There is a guy named Till on Gorath who is spamming the Theed starport. He is selling novice ships for 10k and ship components for 1k per item level (e.g. Mk 2 Booster - 3k). How is he making any money? More importantly, how is anyone else supposed to make money in this profession with people like this around?????
EdOWar
Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:11 pm
#110
There's no money in chassis, in the long run. The only chassis I'll ever sell are the ones I grind out on my way up Shipwright. Otherwise, if someone wants a chassis, they can bring me the resources and I'll make it for them for a small fee. Why should I wastehundreds of thousands of my best resources for only 5 cpu or less. Hell, using 'second-best' steel I can get nearly 20 cpu selling C-12 grenades by the crate.
Use your best steel (and other resources)for components and consumables. Ultimately that is where the real money is. You can sell at a higher CPU with less 'sticker shock'. No one blinks at paying 6K to 10K for a top-notchVK, but at 6K I'm selling that VK at around 70 cpu. Let the other suckers waste steel selling chassis for 3-5 cpu.
On a separate note, I've read a lot of shipwrights saying that pilots can take it or leave it. And as far as it goes, that's true enough. Sell for what it's worth to you. But that cuts both ways. No one is forcing you to buy junk steel at 10 cpu. You can free up lots and harvest it yourself for much less. True, it will take longer to get what you need, but that's the trade off. Take it or leave it.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
OraliaNatiero
Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:54 pm
#111
I spent
2388000 steel
1201000 low grade ore
609000 inert petrochem
609000 aluminium
564000 iron
564000 fieberplast
to grind the Master Shipwright.
Situation 1:
Afighter character is going toshopping a krayt weapon. Finding one and buying it for millions.
WHY?
Everybody knows how many resourcesneeds a weapon. Not too much ...
Situation 2:
A fighter character is going to kill some eldelrs. Finding a legendary weapon and selling it for ten millions.
WHY?
Everybody knowsthat,, it's "hard" to kill an elder ...
Situation 3:
ASHIPWRIGHT "INITIATE" is trying to grind the shipwright for that players who wants to fly.Grinding, grinding, grinding for hours, spending lot of resources for the f. grind. The result is: master shipwright. Our hero wants to sellthe blueprints for money. But the stupids are saying: LOL! 50000 for a ship. LOL! Count is on 0.00000000000000000000001 cr/resource price. LOL! LOL! LOL!
Andsome idiot istrying to sell it for cheap.
WHY?
Everybody knowsthat, the crafters - all crafters - are spending lot of time with crafting, and grinding. They are playing for the others, and yes, the profit.The resoucescame from the harvesters, theharvesters needs time, moneyand energy, etc. etc., but the stupid idiots wants ships, for free, maximum cheap. And lot of idiot, whowants to be rich, but none has brains, selling them for cheap or free. After, when they goes tobankr. with the shipwright profession, they are goingback doing mokk missions, but the prices now are breaking down ...
Stop for a minute! Why should we need to cut the prices down? I think, we need to wait for some weeks, and all - not crafter brained IQ Fighters - will leave our community as fast as the grinded the profession.
I have a good firm, i have money, but since the beginning i wanted to be a shipwright, and now i want to do it with my best abilities for fun, for the players, and yes, for the profit, like everybody else in this f. soe game and this f. life!!!
For an example at the end:
1 light warhead fusing mechanism:
---------------------------------------------
6 amo. gemstone
9 steel
3 lowgrade ore
1 light warhead mechanism:
-------------------------------------
8 steel
1 polymer
9 reactive gas -------------->>>> The result:
C12 grenade:
16 steel
1 light warhead mechanism
1 warhead fusing mechanism
A factory crate on starsider about: 30000 to 45000
Why?
Because everybody is grinding the combat xps for the jedi ... They are in the best place> Jedi grinding time!
Conclusion:
---------------
Why "so expensive" a ship blueprint?
Because everybody want to fly ... We are in the best place> Why is so wrong for every WS or fighter character, whos killing elders and krayts, and selling - with minimal work - krayt and elder weapons for millions?
A Master Shipwright...
rexan
Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:02 pm
#112
Brilyn wrote:
I'm trying desperately not to make the assumption that "the people who are flaming me are morons" but all these assumptions the two of ye are making are just feeding into it.
My preferance is for civil discussion. (And I've dropped the 'economics is a load of BS' for that reason)
Any chance we could have that?
Pot..Kettel..Black.
Civil discussion does not involve calling people morons.
faarsider
Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:17 pm
#113
have to totally agree I came into archi whilst grinding for jedi and found I LOVED it totally n utterly(even stopped grinding for jedi for a time)
sadly by the time I joined the architect profession the customer base had already been spoilt by bulk sellers cutting not only there throats but the throats of anyone interested in playing the game as an archi
I was lucky I have an old unlock jedi so when we converted I took crafting skills for the intent of being a force crafting architect and shipwright (yup long term planning there)
we are already on the rocky road to ruin so unless we ALL make a stand on pricing all we will be is the chumps that are spending our entire time crafting components for little or no profit whilst our non crafting customers enjoy the fruits of our labours
so im sticking to my guns on pricing 10cpu a chassis n 20 cpu a component nice easy maths
I wanna buy a looted adhesive for my glass top table yes I wanna buy an av21 core and no I don't wanna go grinding cash killing in the A*** end of dant to suppliment my little shipyard and yes I do want to be able to pay my friends well for the resources they are mining for me
Ok I know many will come by my vendor n think"jeez that guy is making a killing" or "cheeky fecker who does he think he is I can buy that for half the price" BUT I will be still making and stockling my vendors when the flash in the pans have decided to drop shipwright n move on to the next flavour of the month profession(after all the ones ruining Shipwright NOW are the one that ruined archi not so long ago)
Blacca
Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:50 pm
#114
Correct, why in the WORLD would I Sell ANYTHING for LESS than 3cpu which I can easily sell my resources at (as a matter of fact the JTLS resource SINK has drained every major resource vendor on tarquinas. So to say well, it only costs 0.2 cpu to harvest that resource, doesn't include your time manufacturing, your time maintaning harvesters, overhead on your merchants, overhead on your storefront, overhead on your factories, travel tickets while surveying the resources. Why in the WORLD would I go through all the trouble of having merchants, a storefront, factories just to make stuff and sell it for the same exact price I would get if i just sold the materials? Nope doesn't make much sense to me, the author of this thread probably uses an overhead calculator similar to the one on swgcraft that I use. The cheapest I will sell a ship for is 8 cpu I won't make crap and I won't waste good materials making less than I should.
PyronFirewalker wrote:
He isn't assuming that you are buying the resources. He is saying that what he has mined he can sellat those prices. If you could sell the resource for 10 credits a unit why would you make something that sells for 2 credits a unit out of those resources?
Brilyn wrote:
Your mathimatics is bang on.
But lets clear up a completely erroneous assumption:
That we all buy our resources.
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