Shipwright Archive
Thread: An Observation Regarding Low Ballers and their Future as Shipwrights.
LonelyGhost
Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:15 am
#92
DarthLithic wrote:
ABSOLUTELY!!! That is completely correct, Accumilating credits can be ALOT of fun, this is why I have become a Shipwright. It has recharged my love for this game! However, don't criticize me for selling ships for what I sell them for. I am to the point where I can make x-wing level ships, and I sell them for 100k, 50k for Kimo level ships, and the others I sell on the Bazzar. That is my right. This is a free economy, and I will sell what I sell, and you will sell what you sell. I'm not saying either are right, just saying that if I have just as much right to sell ships cheap as you do to gouge people. And the customers know this. which is why I get about 10-20 requests a day. people would rather wait a day or two for a ship from meat 100k, than buy a ship from you for 500k today. My customer base is growing every day. my business is getting stronger everyday. I don't think I'm having a problem. Do I have millions? No, but I will in time.
Give it some time. You *will* have problems. You will burn out of SW, and those of us who value our time more than you value yours will still be here. YOu will burn through all your resources and end up making ships with crap resources, which you'll have to sell even cheaper. All your "hard-won" customers will be coming to the other SW's then. Flash in the pan.
I wish you luck, and I'm glad you feel content with supplying the server with cheap goods. I guess the other SW will be burdened with the task of explaining why they charge more for their parts. So, while you are making the game "fun" for some Pilot's (if you call getting stuff cheap, fun), you are making it less fun for some Shipwrights (who have to create a macro to deal with argumentative peoplewho want them to also sell cheap).
DingoBoi
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:01 am
#93
Is there any need to resort to flaming ?Since when is pointing out the obvious flaming? You place no personal value on your resources. They do have intrinsic value. You are fooling yourself. You operate at a loss whether you choose to believe it or not. Just because this is a virtual world doesn't mean real business principles don't apply. But run a charity if you want.
I'm discussing how I run my business, and simply because I run it differently from you, you flame me
Again as you don't seem to understand what I was saying. The resources I harvest have no value FOR ME on the open market as I'm not selling them there. The only time they have a value to me is when I put them together into a Ship Chassis or some components.Then you would be wrong to only place value on them when you craft something. Using uber resources worth 15cpu to make a finished product that you sell for 3cpu is just daft. But I agree you have every right to be daft if you choose to be.
I seriously doubt it.I have, however, taken the time to sit down with customers and work out what's best for them without detrimentally affecting the running of my business.
One thing I will let you in on though, is that I have spent time learning this professionvery carefully and have found out some things that so farseem to have been missed by both pilots and Shipwrights alike.
I ask that you simplyretract your personal comments towards me and the way I run my business as I find them both offensive and unprofessional from one Shipwright to another.
It's hard to retract facts just because you don't like them.
You might find them offensive but as they say, the truth hurts.
Message Edited by DingoBoi on 11-16-2004 01:03 PM
TomoRainer
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:06 am
#94
The argument that people should charge more for their ships than they could get selling the resources isn't going to change anyone's mind. Clearly, the people doing this are doing so for a priority other than making as much money as possible--it's because they're really enthralled with the idea of being a shipwright. So much so they'll act in a way that, to the rest of us, seems completely illogical, and actually spend more time and skill points and make less money than they would being a miner. (Note: Whatever, if that's the way you want to run your ship, it doesn't bug me. Just trying to clear some things up here.) Arguing a line of logic that's purely profit-centered isn't going to sway the minds of anyone who's not really in this for the credits.
Also, they're not going to go bankrupt so long as they sell their chassis for at least as much as it costs to mine the resources. Which is what, all of .5 cpu or less? So if you see a guy shouting YT-1300s for 50K, yes, that guy's not going to last. But anyone selling them for 150K or more may actually be making money off them. (Huh, that's kind of a scary thought.) They may, as some people suggested, eventually burn out on making such meager profits; and with so little net cash coming in, along with depending on only what they can mine, they probably won't be able to expand very fast. So the real low-ballers will be limited in the number of sales they can make in a week--but they'll still be making the rest of us look like greedy jerks in the meantime.
It doesn't seem useful to keep going with the "You're a fool with one foot in the scrapyard if you sell for less than the market value of your resources"/"Whatever, I sell for 2 cpu and there's nothing you can do about it" end of things. To me, low-ballers will always exist and there's nothing we can really do about them (other than buy them out, which has its drawbacks). If that's the case, anyone got any ideas as to how to coexist and compete with them?
Also, they're not going to go bankrupt so long as they sell their chassis for at least as much as it costs to mine the resources. Which is what, all of .5 cpu or less? So if you see a guy shouting YT-1300s for 50K, yes, that guy's not going to last. But anyone selling them for 150K or more may actually be making money off them. (Huh, that's kind of a scary thought.) They may, as some people suggested, eventually burn out on making such meager profits; and with so little net cash coming in, along with depending on only what they can mine, they probably won't be able to expand very fast. So the real low-ballers will be limited in the number of sales they can make in a week--but they'll still be making the rest of us look like greedy jerks in the meantime.
It doesn't seem useful to keep going with the "You're a fool with one foot in the scrapyard if you sell for less than the market value of your resources"/"Whatever, I sell for 2 cpu and there's nothing you can do about it" end of things. To me, low-ballers will always exist and there's nothing we can really do about them (other than buy them out, which has its drawbacks). If that's the case, anyone got any ideas as to how to coexist and compete with them?
Aomircko
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:23 am
#95
DingoBoi wrote:
Is there any need to resort to flaming ?Since when is pointing out the obvious flaming? You place no personal value on your resources. They do have intrinsic value. You are fooling yourself. You operate at a loss whether you choose to believe it or not. Just because this is a virtual world doesn't mean real business principles don't apply. But run a charity if you want.
I'm discussing how I run my business, and simply because I run it differently from you, you flame me
Again as you don't seem to understand what I was saying. The resources I harvest have no value FOR ME on the open market as I'm not selling them there. The only time they have a value to me is when I put them together into a Ship Chassis or some components.Then you would be wrong to only place value on them when you craft something. Using uber resources worth 15cpu to make a finished product that you sell for 3cpu is just daft. But I agree you have every right to be daft if you choose to be.
I seriously doubt it.I have, however, taken the time to sit down with customers and work out what's best for them without detrimentally affecting the running of my business.
One thing I will let you in on though, is that I have spent time learning this professionvery carefully and have found out some things that so farseem to have been missed by both pilots and Shipwrights alike.
I ask that you simplyretract your personal comments towards me and the way I run my business as I find them both offensive and unprofessional from one Shipwright to another.
It's hard to retract facts just because you don't like them.
You might find them offensive but as they say, the truth hurts.
Message Edited by DingoBoi on 11-16-2004 01:03 PM
My point (which you still don't seem to have seen) is, that I have access to exactly the same resources as everyone else.
You are calling me foolish for obtaining those resources at a fraction of the cost that you are paying ? Some may actually call that good business practice (minimising costs).
How is it that I operate at a loss ? Have I ever stated any price that I actually sell ANY item for ? Again you assume I sell at a certain price, when in fact you do not know what I sell at......
Let's see:
Profit = Income - Costs
therefore, anything that I earn as a result of selling above the level of my costs if profit is it not ?
Who says it worth 15CPU ??? You, the person next to you, another guy other there somewhere? There's no set price for anything on here, only what someonewill pay for it. Hence there's no set market value across all players.... again you do not seem to see this.
My costs are a lot lower than yours, simply because I harvest the resources I get. You seem to have an idea of how I sell my items, and the price I sell them for, but this has NEVER been stated by me so I'm now wondering where you are getting this from....I have said IF I sell at a certain price, not that I actually do (a very important word, again which seems to have been missed)
If we both sell an item for exactly the same price, who's the richer guy ? the one who has bought them for 15CPU or the one who has harvested them for 0.5CPU ???
and you call me foolish ?
and while we're using sayings:
Assumption is the mother of allf-u-c-k-u-p-s 
Message Edited by Aomircko on 11-16-2004 03:27 PM
Message Edited by Aomircko on 11-16-2004 04:00 PM
St1lgar
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:33 am
#96
I became Shipwright cause i wanted to Reverse Engineer 
I will stay Shipwright forever as long Reverse Engineering remains that sweet.... Other then that i can gather around 400-500k resources a day (with guildies help)... depends on resource shifts etc... however my costs to get these resources might be uhm 20-30k aday with medium harvesters BER 10(including energy maintance).. really not sure... and i dont buy my resources since i think even 3cpu is overprized for any resource.. but thats my opinion.So at my costs i can kick out a-wings, x-wings, y-wings daily..
I will stay Shipwright forever as long Reverse Engineering remains that sweet.... Other then that i can gather around 400-500k resources a day (with guildies help)... depends on resource shifts etc... however my costs to get these resources might be uhm 20-30k aday with medium harvesters BER 10(including energy maintance).. really not sure... and i dont buy my resources since i think even 3cpu is overprized for any resource.. but thats my opinion.So at my costs i can kick out a-wings, x-wings, y-wings daily..However i dedicated my work to the guild and also my guild helps me gathering resources. This allows me to give all Ships and Components free to the guild.. and well sometimes we are overstocked withships and componentsand then ill hit the road and put things on bazar or simply DELETE them !!
And i have still enough cash for myself since i finance everything with hunting rare loot and sell that...
Just wanted to say that there are probably more like me .. not sure hehe
AngamarBlackrock
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:33 am
#97
You all keep trying to liken the SWG economy to a real one, and it just does not work the same way. I’m going to address the biggest hole in the argument.
In the real world, if a company want to make goods, they have to contract out for raw materials. This is a huge expense and contributes to the cost of goods. In SWG, if you need the materials, you can just go mine them yourself for very little cost. There is no middle man inflating prices. Now, some folks DO buy from resource gatherers, and this creates something more akin to a real world model, but as long as crafters can circumvent miners, the economy will not work correctly.
If you have to buy your resources, then you need to recoup your expenditure. If you get your own resources, you have little expenditure so it is child’s play to recoup it. People harvesting their own resources may miss out on the opportunity cost (the cost of doing one thing when something else can make you more money) of selling those resources for a huge markup, but from a pure crafting perspective, they are getting raw materials for a cheaper cost, so their manufacturing is cheaper and their goods can be sold for less money with a high profit margin. This is something almost all large manufacturers look for (efficiencies)but can’t do because they NEED the materials vendor. In essence, the lowballers are working from an ideal business model. As long as they can harvest high quality resources for low cost, they can stay in business forever, keep their prices low and thumb their noses at everyone else.
Many businesses will eat the opportunity cost instead of passing that on to their customer base because they still make profits and it will earn them market share and good will(in theory) That is how Aomircko is running his business and it is actually a very smart model in a real economy. Since SWG is a broken economy, I’ll reserve judgment on whether what he is doing will work in the long run or not. As long as he does not get bored with it, his model should hold up indefinitely in the current SWG economy though
Arg0nus
Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:34 am
#98
This brings me to my point. The people that are lowballing right now are going to be running out of resources soon. The replacement cost of these resources is going to be more than the price they are charging for their ships and components.
I have a feeling eventually, once the novelty wears off, people that do not have a commitment to the profession are going to leave or go out of business. There are just too many resources involved to be able to mine it all and still be able to sell at a discount rate. Either that or they are not going to be using optional components, which will be their failure as Pilots begin to start looking at stats. Experience tells me that people will pay premium for a good weapon then buy a cheap average weapon, this translates into SW profession as well.
So, I'd say that the lowballing will go away soon.
Hahaha
I guess you'd call me a "Low Baller"
I have my guild providing harvesters, so I don't have to go out and buy resources. I'm pulling in enough resources to where I don't have to go out and buy it, so why should I jack my prices up so high?
I have at least 3-5 harvesters down for each type fo SW resource right now, and working on getting more. It's cheaper to maintain harvesters then it is to go out and hunt for someone that might have some resources.
I spend a couple K in credits a week per harvester, and even have some fusions where I split the resources between what I use for SW and powering the other harvesters.
I don't have the overhead of other SWs...so why should I charge a lot more for ships when I spend less on resources?
Ackew
Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:00 am
#99
Arg0nus wrote:
This brings me to my point. The people that are lowballing right now are going to be running out of resources soon. The replacement cost of these resources is going to be more than the price they are charging for their ships and components.
I have a feeling eventually, once the novelty wears off, people that do not have a commitment to the profession are going to leave or go out of business. There are just too many resources involved to be able to mine it all and still be able to sell at a discount rate. Either that or they are not going to be using optional components, which will be their failure as Pilots begin to start looking at stats. Experience tells me that people will pay premium for a good weapon then buy a cheap average weapon, this translates into SW profession as well.
So, I'd say that the lowballing will go away soon.
Hahaha
I guess you'd call me a "Low Baller"
I have my guild providing harvesters, so I don't have to go out and buy resources. I'm pulling in enough resources to where I don't have to go out and buy it, so why should I jack my prices up so high?
I have at least 3-5 harvesters down for each type fo SW resource right now, and working on getting more. It's cheaper to maintain harvesters then it is to go out and hunt for someone that might have some resources.
I spend a couple K in credits a week per harvester, and even have some fusions where I split the resources between what I use for SW and powering the other harvesters.
I don't have the overhead of other SWs...so why should I charge a lot more for ships when I spend less on resources?
So you have 3 to 5 down for EACH S/W resource. Thats 24 to 40 just for the Named S/W resources. Let alone the 9 other resources. So you have 25 to 40 for the named ones and 27 to 45 for the rest. Hmm how to you managed to have 52 to 85 movabe lots ?.
Niacia
Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:01 am
#100
TomoRainer wrote:
The argument that people should charge more for their ships than they could get selling the resources isn't going to change anyone's mind. Clearly, the people doing this are doing so for a priority other than making as much money as possible--it's because they're really enthralled with the idea of being a shipwright. So much so they'll act in a way that, to the rest of us, seems completely illogical, and actually spend more time and skill points and make less money than they would being a miner. (Note: Whatever, if that's the way you want to run your ship, it doesn't bug me. Just trying to clear some things up here.) Arguing a line of logic that's purely profit-centered isn't going to sway the minds of anyone who's not really in this for the credits.
Also, they're not going to go bankrupt so long as they sell their chassis for at least as much as it costs to mine the resources. Which is what, all of .5 cpu or less? So if you see a guy shouting YT-1300s for 50K, yes, that guy's not going to last. But anyone selling them for 150K or more may actually be making money off them. (Huh, that's kind of a scary thought.) They may, as some people suggested, eventually burn out on making such meager profits; and with so little net cash coming in, along with depending on only what they can mine, they probably won't be able to expand very fast. So the real low-ballers will be limited in the number of sales they can make in a week--but they'll still be making the rest of us look like greedy jerks in the meantime.
It doesn't seem useful to keep going with the "You're a fool with one foot in the scrapyard if you sell for less than the market value of your resources"/"Whatever, I sell for 2 cpu and there's nothing you can do about it" end of things. To me, low-ballers will always exist and there's nothing we can really do about them (other than buy them out, which has its drawbacks). If that's the case, anyone got any ideas as to how to coexist and compete with them?
Exactly.
I assume, all of us are playing SW, because we want to have as much fun as possible.
For some having fun means getting as much money as possible.
For some having fun means crafting.
For some having fun means having many customers.
For some having fun means having a small but happy customer base with much personal interaction.
I agree, if for you fun consist in making as much money as possible or to have as many sales as possible, lowballing is not the right way to get there.
However, if fun means interaction with a small but steady customer base lowballing might be the way to do this.
I am not selling that much, neither am I advertising, but I sell my ships quite cheap compared to most other SW.
And I do have a lot of fun.
Regards
Niacia
Arg0nus
Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:28 am
#101
Ackew wrote:
So you have 3 to 5 down for EACH S/W resource. Thats 24 to 40 just for the Named S/W resources. Let alone the 9 other resources. So you have 25 to 40 for the named ones and 27 to 45 for the rest. Hmm how to you managed to have 52 to 85 movabe lots ?.
Ok...So I don't have the named resources....yet
I have Steel, Alum, Ore, Inert Petrochem, Fiberplast, and Iron. Basically the ones to make chassis, since I am not messing with components just yet. I am mainly doing chassis right now.
I pull in enough to keep my vendors stocked with what chassis I can make right now. Working on getting harvesters for the rest of the guild that is donating lots.I don't plan on being a high volume shop, I sell enough to keep my harvesters in operation and make enough cash to keep me comfortable just in case of emergency. SW is fun, and I am using it to bolster our city's treasury.
It's not perfect, but I am doing well enough to keep my vendor stocked with 4 of each ship.
Ackew
Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:41 am
#102
Arg0nus wrote:
Ackew wrote:
So you have 3 to 5 down for EACH S/W resource. Thats 24 to 40 just for the Named S/W resources. Let alone the 9 other resources. So you have 25 to 40 for the named ones and 27 to 45 for the rest. Hmm how to you managed to have 52 to 85 movabe lots ?.
Ok...So I don't have the named resources....yet
I have Steel, Alum, Ore, Inert Petrochem, Fiberplast, and Iron. Basically the ones to make chassis, since I am not messing with components just yet. I am mainly doing chassis right now.
I pull in enough to keep my vendors stocked with what chassis I can make right now. Working on getting harvesters for the rest of the guild that is donating lots.I don't plan on being a high volume shop, I sell enough to keep my harvesters in operation and make enough cash to keep me comfortable just in case of emergency. SW is fun, and I am using it to bolster our city's treasury.
It's not perfect, but I am doing well enough to keep my vendor stocked with 4 of each ship.
Wellpeople like you arethe reason i don't do chassi's any more I used to make them with quality stuff but whats the point when thier are people like you who sell them at 2cpu. Even with crap resources i can put them on my resource vendor and sell then at 3cpu in no time. I aslo don't need to waste the time and effort to make then into ships. I will stick to components which NEED quaity resources and people can SEE the difference between lowballers useing crap and me useing the best on the server.
DarthLithic
Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:43 am
#103
nerfherder321 wrote:
dont want to be a bother here, but what i am concerned about are the people who use grinding resourcs or people who sell teh grinding resourcs at say 10 cpu, this casues teh SW to sell the ships at oh 11-15 to make a profit, which ends up with say, 50k starter ships, and 200k tier 2 ships, which i find to be very distressing. since people are able to buy it, they will, which means not only will they keep the price up, when it goes out of demand, they will raise the price even more! i can hardly find a "reasonable" SW who will sell it at a DECENT rate not like 7-15 CPU, when they could have had their resourcs for a fraction of that price!
I harvest most of my own resources, cuts my costs down ALOT. When I do have to buy a resource, I buy in bulk, so I don't have to pass this loss on the the customer as much.
DarthLithic
Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:45 am
#104
Aomircko wrote:
DarthLithic wrote:
Debrick wrote:
Tanks wrote:
...went to the shop the told me was much cheaper then mine and found the compnents where FAR worse than mine. One told me about this shop that sold for a third of what i charged and when i had a look my mk2 stuff was 50% better than thier mk4.
Yep, my experience exactly. Today I went to this shop that had "great" selection and prices. His Mark 4 reactors were 60K compared to mine that are 75K, however my MK3 reactors which sell for 45K have 1.3K more regeneration rate. So, it is a good deal if someone is looking at prices only, but in reality they are getting ripped off.
I think part of what we need to do also is to educate the Pilots. Components with optional sub-components will cost more and of course provide better performance as well. That is already happening somewhat, I have people coming to my shop and buying stuff for their friends as well, once they see the stats.
I was reading though this and I thought that a lot of you are comparing things that should not be compared. And Tanks hit it on the head; its not about the price per unit of resource, its the price pre QUALITY resource. Most lowballers (with the exception of those with the power of large guilds handing them their resources) are just throwing out chassis’s and components to put them out without really putting much thought into it. They are not true crafters and do not realize the goal of excellence. True shipwrights will charge what the part is worth. If it is a top quality part then it will bring a premium.
It all about that you can live more thantwice as long with a higher quality ship. If the differences are as vast asTanksis saying then the ship with the cheap parts would be the equivilent of a Jalopy and will be a piece of junk.
hase2 wrote:
then tell me - with the insane chassis decay.
why should i buy 1 ship with slightly better stats when i can get 2 for the same money (leave out broker costs)?
i doubt, that your high quality ships last 2 times as long as the med quality ones.
The problem with this is that most players do not have the amount of money you are asking for chassis and parts. There are definately people out there that can afford to drop tons of cash on the best quality ships. Heck, I have 7 pre-orders for firesprays when I get my last segment (20 mil per) but a majority of the population simply can't afford what you're selling. I have done ships with both high quality (stats over 900) and low quality (all stats under 400) and came up with minimal difference. The point is, there are markets for both. I sell higher quantity, you sell higher quality. Not everyone can afford a Mercedes, most people I know have to settle for a Ford, or Chevy.
Thought the FSE schem has a 5 use limit ?
Between 3 and 8 from what I've read. the people who have pre-ordered know that I will sell first come based on who asked first. I already explained it to them.