Shipwright Archive
Thread: The People Have Spoken... (poll results)
Some of the things you write are true.
I can join a guild, but a handcrafter cannot compete with a factory crafter. The factory crafter does not only have teh advantage of quantity but also of quality. Or price, respectively. Let us say there is one exeptional good try in 10 builds. The factory crafter multiplies this try with 1000 (or whatever is the limit for that schematic). If he throws away the builds that were not exceptional, he will need about 1010 times the resources for a single build for 1000 items or 1.01 times the resources to build a single item.. A handcrafter will either produce lower quality (keeping the other builds) or will take 10 times the resources the item takes to get the same level of quality. How is this competing on even ground?
Factory crafting has a major impact on the market, there just is no way around this truth. Also it is a way around having to use help of other players (which I use a lot, btw).
Anyway, I should get out of this discussion, I do not like to be one-starred for stating my opinions. This just is no good form to use one-staring as a way to lead a discussion.
No, I do not say, you one-stared me, I do not know, who did. But whoever it did, is killing the discussion...
Regards
Niacia
Niacia wrote:
@RedDestinyCC
Some of the things you write are true.
I can join a guild, but a handcrafter cannot compete with a factory crafter. The factory crafter does not only have teh advantage of quantity but also of quality. Or price, respectively. Let us say there is one exeptional good try in 10 builds. The factory crafter multiplies this try with 1000 (or whatever is the limit for that schematic). If he throws away the builds that were not exceptional, he will need about 1010 times the resources for a single build for 1000 items or 1.01 times the resources to build a single item.. A handcrafter will either produce lower quality (keeping the other builds) or will take 10 times the resources the item takes to get the same level of quality. How is this competing on even ground?
Factory crafting has a major impact on the market, there just is no way around this truth. Also it is a way around having to use help of other players (which I use a lot, btw).
Anyway, I should get out of this discussion, I do not like to be one-starred for stating my opinions. This just is no good form to use one-staring as a way to lead a discussion.
No, I do not say, you one-stared me, I do not know, who did. But whoever it did, is killing the discussion...
Regards
Niacia
Please stop stating your opinions as the truth. We are many that do not believe that factories will have a major impact on the market. This is one of the main reasons that we support factories.
Your calculations above assume that he makes 1000 items from a schematic. While this might be possible for the low-level, cheap components, it surely is not possible for the higher-level components. If an item requires 2k resources to build, making 1000 items from a schematic will require you to have 2 million units of the exact same resource type. Add to this that there are many types of components and some require even larger amounts of resources. There is simply no way that even the most persistent power-gamer can make 1000 items of everything.
In any case, I still believe the single power-gamer dominating the market is a myth. I have never seen it happen on my server. It is true that the lonely crafter that doesn't have friends in the game and only plays a few hours a week will have a hard time competing with the crafters that play more hours and have friends to help him out with harvesting resources. I see no problem in this and I do not see that factories have any impact on this at all.
I agree with your annoyance of being one-starred. I can assure you that I am also being one-starred for stating my opinions. There seem to be some one-starring trolls on the boards. I have stopped caring about the star system completely because of this.
pervel wrote:Please stop stating your opinions as the truth. We are many that do not believe that factories will have a major impact on the market. This is one of the main reasons that we support factories.
Your calculations above assume that he makes 1000 items from a schematic. While this might be possible for the low-level, cheap components, it surely is not possible for the higher-level components. If an item requires 2k resources to build, making 1000 items from a schematic will require you to have 2 million units of the exact same resource type. Add to this that there are many types of components and some require even larger amounts of resources. There is simply no way that even the most persistent power-gamer can make 1000 items of everything.
In any case, I still believe the single power-gamer dominating the market is a myth. I have never seen it happen on my server. It is true that the lonely crafter that doesn't have friends in the game and only plays a few hours a week will have a hard time competing with the crafters that play more hours and have friends to help him out with harvesting resources. I see no problem in this and I do not see that factories have any impact on this at all.
I agree with your annoyance of being one-starred. I can assure you that I am also being one-starred for stating my opinions. There seem to be some one-starring trolls on the boards. I have stopped caring about the star system completely because of this.
Ok, I will try not to state things as truth
. Anyway, even you say, that there will be an impact, the only question is, how much of an impact...Anyway, even if you limit the the runs to one 100, it still is 1.1 times the resource usage compared to 10 times. Limiting it to 10 builds, the resource ratio would still be 2 compared to 10.
What this means is that factories give you either a cost or a quality benefit. Which in turn would require a serious crafter to use factories, even if he does not want to.
Yes, the single crafter dominating the market is a myth. It usually is a somewhat larger group. Like 10 to 20 crafters feeding 60-70% of the market. And another 100-200 crafters (maybe more) who take care of the rest.
Disclaimer: As I do not have access to dev resources, these are only rough guesses. Also, it might be different from server to server.
I can only judge from what I experience within the game. And what I see is, that I do have a lot more fun with shipwright, then with any prior crafting profession. I believe, this is to a large part due to the missing factory support. Because I see this as the major difference between this and other crafting professions.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is because of more meaningfull experimentation options. Only, i do not really believe this.
To me the game is fun, at it is right now, so naturally I am opposed to this change. I can only see me loose something I really enjoy.
Regards
Niacia
I also believe the devs did some good things with the shipwright profession. They made it so that you can actually make useful stuff before being master. They made it so that there is great possibility for tweaking products to fit the customers needs. Now they need to add full factory support, fix the loot issues, and give us an FS conversion.Then we would be getting close to a perfect profession imo.
Niacia wrote:
I can only judge from what I experience within the game. And what I see is, that I do have a lot more fun with shipwright, then with any prior crafting profession. I believe, this is to a large part due to the missing factory support. Because I see this as the major difference between this and other crafting professions.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is because of more meaningfull experimentation options. Only, i do not really believe this.
Niacia wrote:
@RedDestinyCC
The factory crafter does not only have teh advantage of quantity but also of quality. Or price, respectively. Let us say there is one exeptional good try in 10 builds. The factory crafter multiplies this try with 1000 (or whatever is the limit for that schematic). If he throws away the builds that were not exceptional, he will need about 1010 times the resources for a single build for 1000 items or 1.01 times the resources to build a single item.. A handcrafter will either produce lower quality (keeping the other builds) or will take 10 times the resources the item takes to get the same level of quality. How is this competing on even ground?
Factory crafting has a major impact on the market, there just is no way around this truth. Also it is a way around having to use help of other players (which I use a lot, btw).
*Sigh*
You talk about factories and SW and increasing production negatively impacting your game... and the above seems to be your rationale. Here's one for ya. Instead of all of the rest of the peeps who use a game's functional tool (factory) to expedite (in its limited 1,000 form) the repetitive busywork of crafting, I havea suggestion for you, so that you're not at a competitive disadvantage and so that you also can improve the quality of your products:
GET A FACTORY
Problem solved. Again, you're making a rather poor choice in this regard. This is not stone ages, this is Star Wars. There's Kuat and other INDUSTRIES in this environment. So its quite within a RP'ers mandate to buy a deed for a factory and put it to use.
It's quite simple. You can run it for 10 items, or for 100 items (unless you hit your head on the factory/schematic limit) or even more perhaps. If you need help in running a factory, send me a PM and I'll work with you, its no great mystery and you still get the enjoyment of crafting, and as you say, using your best experimentation to yield more than one product.
I think you've made our point for us, by making yours. You're choosing not to use a factory and would like the rest of us to lose or not enhance our factory tool, for whatever odd reason you choose not to use one in the first place.
I am not sure, this is the way, the rating feature is supposed to be used that way. You know, that one stared post will not be seen by many of the posters of these boards?
Anyway, you keep missing my points.
Earlier, you told me, that nobody is forcing me to use a factory. And that I could compete without using a factory. Then I told you, why this would put me at a disadavantage, despite the things you sugested.
This is why factory crafting and hand crafting cannot really exist side by side with the current implementation of factories.
Yes, I know how to use factories. As a MDE I need to know. Now, I do not like using factories very much. But again, this is not the point.
The point is, that I believe factories do have a negative impact on the game economy. This is my impression from what I see happening in professions other than SW.
Yes, I am not all knowing or all seeing. But neither are you. Or any of the other players posting in this or other threads.
Anyway, we are not going to decide this issue. Nor will censorship decide this issue. The decission will be made by the devs, old or new.
Attacking the devs or other players will bring neither of us anyway closer to our goals. And yes, if factory crafting was introduced in SW, I expect, I would loose a lot of fun. It might mean more fun for other players like you or pervel. The thing, which troubles me most, is that there is no other crafting profession, I could take, where I can be a crafter, not an industrialist.
Regards
Niacia
IndustryAndGuild wrote:They are all crafting professions. You're stuck on not using a factory, that's your personal choice, and one that I would venture to guess is not the norm.
Crafting professions they are. I should have said manufacturing profession. Sorry, English is not my first language.
Anyway, the really important point is, that this is not a question about what I would like, or what you would like, or what anybody else would like for himself. It is a question, about what is good for the game.
Each of us only has empirical knowledge of a small part of what is going on in SWG. We know a few people, maybe on a few servers, but our overview is far from perfect.
Things I would like to see for a further discussion to make any sense are statistical data, for example how many people o are selling what volumne (either in credits or in number of items). Such data would give us a much better understanding in the impacts of factories on game economy. I believe in a large impact, other people do not believe this is the case. Without data, that is where we stop. At beliefs..
Some more things to consider. SW is the only elite crafting profession not dependent on other crafting professions. Compared to other professions it also has a very small production depth.
This morning, I build a R3 harvesting droid. The final build required: R3 Advanced Droid frame, 2 combat capable clusters, an armor segment. The frame needs 2 advanced droid brains, an advanced droid frame, an advanced motion controller, a droid sensor package, a manipulator arm package. The advanced droid brains require multiple master artisan build memory chips and processing modules...
And so on...
In SW, there is one subcomponent, which is optional.
I would assume, that these things would need to change, if factories were implemented. And to be honest, this would suck.
Regards
Niacia
Message Edited by Niacia on 12-02-2004 06:34 PM
Cafa wrote:
Niacia wrote:
I do not know why, but my impression of SWG is quite different from yours.
The reason might be, that I came in from another MMORG, that to me was much worse. Oh, it did have its strength (the combat system among them), but my overall impression of SWG is much better. And while I stayed with that other game for about half a year I am at 16 month with SWG now.
I do not know your background, whether you have studied game design or something related. But if you did, you will know, that good game design sometimes calls for hard decissions. Due to technological reasons.
But also due to gameplay reasons. Remove all the hard choices (e.g.: Should I be a crafter and drop my combat skills?), might make the game more fun for a short period of time, but would definitely be bad on the longer run.
The factory issue might be a similar case. They do have a profound impact on the economy, whether a player uses them or not. So removing them will hurt some players (like you). On the other hand, many more? players (like me) will benefit from this. I also believe the economy will profit from this. Just thing what would have happened if some of the ultra rich players had started producing factory runs of master level ships. What would that have done to resource prices?
Regarding things like mounts, vehicles, player cities,...
I agree, it would have been nice, if those things had been in the game from the beginning. Only, I thought, the game was fun, even without those things. So, if the decision was between going to market now, or wait half a year until these things were ready, I think the decision was ok.
Somehow, it is always the case with MMORGs. They get better with time. And while I would like some things to get here faster, or do not agree to all design decisions, I still think our devs are doing a good job. I, for one, would not be willing to spend 50 bucks a month on SWG, just so they could add a few more devs to the team and speed things up.
But this is, of course, just my opinion.
Regards
NiaciaThis is a total copout of what we've had to deal with in the continuation devs team at the producer level.
SEAs still broken, even after OFFICIAL documentation is published 180 degrees of actual gameplay.
Resource and storage limitations still ignored, even after leaving MASSIVE explotation possible in the game for over a year. Now that such explotation is gone, we still cannot even get structures to provide 75 per lot used for them. Elite Profession Entertainers and Chefs deserve to have 75 storage per lot for their profession speciality structures. PA halls should store 75 per lot for 7 lots used. Large houses should provide storage value of their lot requirements. Instead all of these clip at 250 items per building.
Resource and crate storage need to be 1000K and 100 items rated for all factory capable crafting.
Charging me a lot to utilize a REWARD that I faithfully maintained an account with the company for a freaking YEAR STRAIGHT, and the yet again counting it as one of my regular ships out of 3 storable ship limit is BAD BUSINESS and does NOT appreciate customers.
My ^&%&^% factories STILL do not store 100 items in the output hopper after NINETEEN MONTHS.
I currently pay for 8 accounts a month for my family. Don't tell me I don't support this game.
I would like anywhere near the same loyalty from the company I support. Instead we all get called names in public by their lead producer. Their CSR lead single post to these boards is to tell us all to shut-up.
We get told that if the game deletes our data, OH WELL. It's even published as a Corporate Standard!
This and other problems are not due to technical limitations. POINT BLANK.
Bugs and exploits are not design decissions and should be removed from the game, whenever possible. This does include x-server lot trades..
From what I read in JTL beta, the lot requirement of the reward ship is due to technical database issues. Regarding the item limits of buildings, I concur. But there might be issues, I do not know about.
A CSR calling you names should be fired.
Things that are deleted are hard to reproduces. Yes, I lost two factories to bugs. No, I could not get them back. Yes this sucks.
And a lead producer that called us names? Never saw that post, I guess.
Regards
Niacia
Niacia wrote:
Earlier, you told me, that nobody is forcing me to use a factory. And that I could compete without using a factory. Then I told you, why this would put me at a disadavantage, despite the things you sugested.
This is why factory crafting and hand crafting cannot really exist side by side with the current implementation of factories.
The point is, that I believe factories do have a negative impact on the game economy. This is my impression from what I see happening in professions other than SW.
Anyway, we are not going to decide this issue. Nor will censorship decide this issue. The decission will be made by the devs, old or new.
Attacking the devs or other players will bring neither of us anyway closer to our goals. And yes, if factory crafting was introduced in SW, I expect, I would loose a lot of fun. It might mean more fun for other players like you or pervel. The thing, which troubles me most, is that there is no other crafting profession, I could take, where I can be a crafter, not an industrialist.
The decisions will be made by the devs? I'll just bend over and take it now then. LOL
Last time I looked, I was a customer around here and they work to satisfy me and turn a buck for SOE. There's that driving off ona 3-wheeled are again.
As for attacking the devs, I don't attack the devs, I am critical of their performance, with specificity.
As for factories having a negative impact on the economy... Based on what? I say that's full of hot air and poor facts. I know of many mass mass producers on my server that I can't keep up with production-wise even with my multiple accounts, because they do lot swaps and have other guild support affiliations, but guess what? They DO NOT impact my ability to sell my own goods. Period. Nor do I have an impact on the person half my size in production and so on. Anyone who makes a product has the wherewithall and means to sell it, IF they get off their butts and take the steps necessary, and IF they put the thought into it, OR at least ask someone else how they accomplish it if they themselves can't figure it out. Factories do not impact the economy, they are a tool for convenience. As someone else said here, there are no monopolies in this game. No player or guild or association is so large (somehow magically with 10 lots? bah, even if 100 peeps worked together with their 10 lots each in the same server? bah) to lock out other players from selling their goods. Nuts to that LOL.
So you can be a non-factory crafter, hell don't use a tool either and make one with sticks and bones too, if that's your kick. Silliness we're even arguing over using a factory or not. On one hand, also being a doc buff crafter with a lot of sub-component management and production (6 subcomponents to 1 finished product), I'm taking issue with the lunacy of even discussing nerfing of factories instead of increasing factory capabilities, and I have to remind myself that you're looking at it somewhat specifically to SWrights. Even so, goofy to think that factories hurt the economy in any way or your ability to compete. This is a silly debate. I'm done.
Niacia wrote:
Theory says, that the price of a good, is dependent on supply and demand. In our situation I would think it is safe to assume, that the demand will not be strongly influenced by the question, whether there are factories or not. The supply on the other hand might increase, because the production capabilities would increase for each shipwright.
Lordy, right now there are far more SW's than the game can support. They are competing for resource spawns, and yes I believe they actually use harvesters for that rather than sampling by hand, if that's ok to you Niacia, or are you against harvesters too? Same argument.
As a result for the time being, people are challenged to make a buck because there's too many SW's. It's also complicated by the fact that there's so many SW's who are not true crafters, who do not want to take the time to gather the necessary quality resources, and do the crafting, harvesting, and factory work that is required, so alot of them who got into the profession for the wow-factor are going to die off and in fact are not really producing anyway. There is also the segment who are in it for RE'ing and want the firespray, and are also not producing. There's 800 billion SW's in our server, and they're all bouncing off each other, some are trying to sell things, others are bumping into each other at the resource spawns and finding the spots long gone, and its all a mess for pricing. That will stabilize over time as peeps move on from the initial wow-factor. That is the economic reality for the next 3 to 6 months of the game. A plague of SWrights, and a complete mess of the price structure and ability to make a buck. If SW is anyone's sole source of income and survival... as we work through this plagueofnoob non-dedicated crafters, I feel some true SW's are going to starve unless they start learning other ways to make a buck.
Niacia wrote:
RedDestinyCC wrote:Right you are DestinyFreakin Kuat is a corporation, there is, after all... INDUSTRY in the SWG universe. If someone wants to craft it up in bulk and enjoy it, and form cooperatives that mimic industry. Damned it let them. And up that storage to facilitate it. Is that fair to players? Hell yes its fair. They can join an ongoing enterprise or cooperative, they can own and start their own, or they can continue working solo, that's their choice."New Devs, new devs, new devs... La la la la la *kicks up feet* la la la" such a happy song.
Talking to himself? Somehow, this looks as if logging to a different account did not work for some reason. Is this you Peta? Anyway, I might be completely wrong on this one...
And, this person did not vote....
Regards
Niacia
LOL I noticed this failed attempt at bolstering his opinion with a second account, hehe. He even 5-starred himself, lol.