Shipwright Archive

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RagNoRock5x wrote:

Just a thought, but do you think force luck helps any?

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Malitevv wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I think here is the general problem. I can feel a pattern. I dont know what but I can feel it. I think the situation is that most people RE loot randomly so they see randomness. But when you spend 3+ hours straight REing loot everyday. Well thats another matter. Its almost like a pulse. I can start to feel its peak.

You forget something very important with this comment: if the random number generator is server side, there is surely a single random number generation algorithm that many different unrelated random events are all using. That means people RE'ing and people slicing (for example) are all getting their random numbers from the same generator. This means the only way you could ever directly observe the actual random sequence is if you were the only person logged into the server. And even then, you have to remember that every time a new spawn appears, it's exact location and exact type are both randomly selected. So even if nobody logs in, you will not be the only thing querying the servers random number generation algorithm. Since the nature of the other queries is not patterned and will be random, there is no way that the servers use of rand() to produce random numbers will ever produce a pattern you can observe even if you RE a million items in rapid succession. If you want to look for patterns that is fine. But you should drop any pretense that the use of rand() or any other psuedo-random number generator could ever be the explanation for them. In this case, it can't.

But the biggest problem of all is that there is so much. So many different variables that can and I believe do play a part in getting a disk or not. Whether or not you log,

Whether or not you log can only play a role if the developers were stupid enough to use a client side random number generator that reseed with client side information when the game is turned on. OR if they were stupid enough to give each player his own random number generation algorithm that is run server side but uses client side information to seed. Neither makes any sense. Unless the programmers are very silly, each server will have 1 random number generator that gets seeded when the server resets and no amount of logging or relogging is going to have any affect on it because it is being used by the server for all random results for all players and zone spawns that it ever needs to calculate.

If that were the case then crafters wouldnt be able to "reset" their bad experimentation streaksby logging or loading.

if you keep your disks in your inventory, company the loot comes from, and so on. And this may well be what the DEVs are counting on for their randomness. Keep the system tied up in all sorts of variables so that no one can stick even one part of the system to a table.

If they do anything other than have the server call a psuedo-random number generator to produce the random results then they are fools. Because nothing else that they could come up with will ever be as random as what a server-side pseudo-random number generator could produce. Why would they waste time relying on anything other than a pseudo-random number generator for their randomness? It just doesn't make sense. Because psuedo-random number generators arethe best possible way for a computer to produce randomness.

I am not saying that they arent using a random number generator. I have never said that. I am saying there might be variables that affect the outcome of each RE. A simple number gen that could be tracked except having 50 variables added in would give a look of randomness just as having a complex multi tier number generator. It would look random until you figured out the variables. If there is 50 variables, what are the odds someone will figure it out? Not very likely.

I'm not saying that there might not be variables that affect the RE, but if there are it cannot be to help make it more random. Every variable that they might use to affect the RE result will only serve to make it less random because variables like you are discussing can be known by the client. They can be tracked and the results of those variables can be studied, whereas the calls that the server makes to a pseudo-random number generator cannot be known tracked or studied by the client.

No. The simple fact is that if they used any variables that are controlled by the client to affect the RE result, the only possible reason they would have done this is to make the result less random. Because that is what using those variables will do.

The more I RE the closer I feel to nailing something down in this system. Look at the original FS path. Before anyone knew what it was. People had theories. I remember a few people had the theory it was based on professions. No one had any real evidence. But these guys strongly felt mastering professions was the key. But they got flamed by everyone else because the DEVs had said the system was random and certain checks had been put in place. But we all found out those few were completely right.

Funny you bring that up. Everybody knew it was about mastering professions. The flame wars on the old Jedi forums were notabout whether or not mastering professions was the key. The flame wars were about whether or not you could predict the next profession from the previous professions once your holocrons went silent. And what we found out was that all the crazy theories that people were coming up with about how you coud affect or predict what your silent profession was going to be by doing things on the client side were completely wrong.

Nonetheless, the arguments that those people gave were the same arguments you have provided in this thread. I don't mean that as an insult. It's a fact. That is what drew me into this thread. I read it and said, PetaByte andTyrannusareusing the same arguments that all thefalse prophets that claimed:"I can predict your silent profession" on the jedi forums were using back in January/February of this year.

I'm not saying you are one of those people, but youmight want tobe careful. You are using the same scientifically faulty logic that replaces "gut feeling" with cold hard facts, that those people used. And they were just as wrong as all the people that flamed them said they were.

You misunderstand. I am not talking about after the holocrons started dropping. I am not talking about the prophets. I am talking about before the holocrons ever dropped. When no one knew what the path was or what it was even based on. From when the game was first released up until the first holos started dropping. This is the period I am talking about. If you had really read that part thoroughly you would know this. I highlighted the part explaining this for you.

My biggest point in the arguement for whether or not this is truely random, is the prize itself. The firespray. I honestly feel the devs are starting to learn from past mistakes, IE holocrons. Holocrons were a completely random loot item and with in a month of them dropping, people that wanted themhad literally 5 or more of them. They were so prevelant you could go to coronet and see 10 or more players shouting to sell them. If the firespray disk system is completely random as some think then it wont be long before we see the samething with firesprays. With the amount of loot out there its inevitable. If firesprays get that common then it defeats the purpose and will hurt the economy once again. An economy, I might add, that cant take too many more hits like holos, crystals, and pearls did. This is one reason I feel the disks are truly 100% random. There has to be something in there that the DEVs can control to make sure things dont get out of hand.

That is a faulty comparison. The frequency of holocrons was never a problem with the old jedi system. Shoot. Were you here in december of last year? They gave every single player a free holocron as a christmas present, and for a very large number of players, that was the only holocron they ever owned. The holocrons were never the hard part of the old jedi grind anyway. The hard part was that once you did your first 4 holocrons, the holocrons went silent. It didn't matter how many you had. They wouldn't tell you anything.

I was here for all that. I know all about the holocrons. And the problem I am mentioning is not the prevelent number of jedi but the ruined economy thanks to holocron fever. I used to make money to fund my grinds from selling holocrons. I seriously doubt the DEVs are going to let something that stupid happen again. So they would have to put some sort of checks and balances in to either control the numbers or allow them to directly affect the number. Again I highlighted the part explaining this was about economy and not jedi numbers.

In any case, as I've already explained, all of the variables you are hoping are there can only serve the purpose of making it easier for players to get their schematic. It will not make it harder. If you think they made some mistake with the holocrons that they need to "learn" from that affected the frequency of the holocron then there is a very simple way to do that: make the frequency with which the schematics randomly appear smaller. Adding client controlled variables as a means ofreducing the frequency of loot makes no rational sense at all. It would be monumentally foolish for them to do what you are proposing if the reasons you give are the actual reasons.

I am just saying there might be variables that affect the outcome. And if there are then there migth be a way to "force" disks. Simple as that.

Tyranus

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Message Edited by Malitevv on 11-07-2004 01:28 PM

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DVad wrote:

This is what i am talking about. In computing terms rand() is not random, as was stated above (by the guys from MIT(sic))

Why do you say "fairly" random....lol

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I say "fairly" random because I am acknowledging that it is nottruly random. We all know that random number generators from the pseudo-random number generator are not truly random. But that fact is completely irrelevant in this discussion. Bringing it up as defense of anything in this discussion is pure ignorance (i know you didn't bring it up but others did in defense of their patterns). What I mean by "fairly" random is this: Pseudo-random number generators are random enough that if they used one to decide whether or not you get a schematic each time you RE, no human being would ever observe any pattern in when the schematic appears and when they do not. If anyone, observes a predictable pattern, rand() cannot be the cause of that pattern. period.

You also mention the fact that a program written that uses rand() produces the same first number each time you turn the program/computer on. That happens because of what we call the "seed" to a random number generator. Only a poorly written program, or a program that doesn't care if it repeats itself exactly every time it is turned on will produce the same first number each time it is run. Programs have a choice of how they want to seed the random number generator. That seed determines the starting point in the random sequence. In this case, because we are playing a game that has a client-server model, we can be fairly certain the the seed is controlled by the server and is something the client has no visibility into.

Still don't know what your point is though. You still haven't explained why multiplying a result from rand() by the time interval between mouse clicks serves any useful purpose. We could just drop it. It doesn't really have anything to do with this discussion either.

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PetaByte32 wrote:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have never once said I was right or correct. Yet he does. And he presents his "I am the computer god so burn in hell Petabyte, you moron" additude badly.

As I said if he wants to discuss this then fine. I am open to discussion. But when someone calls me a moron or talks down to me with each post then guess what? Its not a discussion anymore. Its one man who thinks he is socorrect it gives him the right to treat others against his arguement like dogs.

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Message Edited by omadnay on 11-08-2004 01:29 PM

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Marzuk147 wrote:
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LOL whatever. All I can say is I am confident that I am correct, and thats good enough for me.


PS. I wouldnt tie the seed for the random number generator into anything the player can effect, its just stupid. That means inventory, location, time, money, ect.

Message Edited by Marzuk147 on 11-07-2004 12:15 AM

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Dont bother arguing with him , he never lets thing go even if he is proven wrong , then resorts to flames and name calling. He loves to try to use facts , which are unproven.

oh, one other thing: if you spent the time you were writing these long involved posts crafting ship parts instead, you would not need a factory.

Message Edited by neutrineaux on 11-08-2004 06:00 PM

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fatgato wrote:

Dont bother arguing with him , he never lets thing go even if he is proven wrong , then resorts to flames and name calling. He loves to try to use facts , which are unproven.

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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fatgato wrote:

Dont bother arguing with him , he never lets thing go even if he is proven wrong , then resorts to flames and name calling. He loves to try to use facts , which are unproven.

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Hmmmm. *checks cage to see if he rattled it* Nope I didnt rattle the cage. *Tosses a banana in* there you go monkey boy. Now go back to the counterstrike erm jedi forums where you belong.

Actually since I havent gone to any of your threads in the other forums to post harrassing messages to you then it is someone elsewho cant let something go. I wonder who that could be?

Tyranus

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Message Edited by fatgato on 11-09-2004 12:51 AM

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Morthon wrote:

Got tired of reading, but you are all assuming that they are actually using a random number generator. Ever stop to think that if that was the case someone could easily never get a disk and so they have the system set up to be not totally random. We are not talking about the lottery or some DOD code, we are talking about a entertainment product.

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fatgato wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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fatgato wrote:

Dont bother arguing with him , he never lets thing go even if he is proven wrong , then resorts to flames and name calling. He loves to try to use facts , which are unproven.

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Hmmmm. *checks cage to see if he rattled it* Nope I didnt rattle the cage. *Tosses a banana in* there you go monkey boy. Now go back to the counterstrike erm jedi forums where you belong.

Actually since I havent gone to any of your threads in the other forums to post harrassing messages to you then it is someone elsewho cant let something go. I wonder who that could be?

Tyranus

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I am not following you around , I posted this long before my comment on the other thread read the time moron. I am a shipwright I have 3 complete schematics for firespray and bunch multiples. There no pattern , no voodoo , I didnt keep parts in my inventory, I didnt spin around in a circle 3 times before I RE'd it I went and just RE alot of stuff. So dont think I am following you around I am agreeing with other gentleman that you cannot take deal with the factyou dont have a case. I sat for 3 hours at the bazaar Reing and got parts.

The fact I have built and sold 2 Firespray so far , just from SW alone , I have made 112 million credits I think I am very successful SW. I have made a good name for myself and I spend time with my customers who have alwayss come back . I can careless what you think about me or IF i am posting in your thread OMG...... or even if you 1 star me since well unlike you I dont care about the star system.

Message Edited by fatgato on 11-09-2004 12:51 AM

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Well first I could care less about you. If you hate me or my posts so much why torture yourself? I cant let something go? You obviously cant let something as its like your going out of your way to annoy me. Not to mention you supposedly read all my past posts? Wow thats really not letting something go there. Want some addresses for good therapists in your area?

Second I have 3 schems too. I also have enough doubles for 3 more with 3 more 6/8 and follow that with another 4 more when I have four 3/8 and four 6/8 again.

Since you brought up money I will also. I believe we are up too 500 mill or close to it.

Third and this will be surprising to you and others. But if you dont flame me I wont flame you. If you were serious about checking my past posts then you will notice that I only get upset and flame people after (I repeat "after") they flame me. And in fact if people talk and not insult me to get their views acrossI have been, more times then naught, easy to change my mind if they were right. But if you think I am going to change my mind about a certain topicbecause a Llama monkey boy like you or marzuk flamed me? Wow your dumber then I thought. And quite naive.

Its a concept I am sure someone like you and sizzlechest arent familiar with. Its called a discussion. In a discussion, people talk calmly and share their views. Maybe one orsome change their views. You need to go back and get some social skills.

I read your post history also. Everytime anyone even nicely says they disagree with you, you quickly start insulting them. Really sad. Ever think to be nice? Oh wait. You cant. The shock of being nice might kill you.

Bye.

Tyranus