Shipwright Archive
Thread: Shipwrights Unite!!! Pricing issues
Paltex
Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:37 am
#66
It does not MATTER what the cost of the materials are, PERIOD! A sale is based on what the market will pay for the item. If you dump product at low prices you MAY go out of business. Why, because once a market hits base, all others MUST follow or they will have ZERO sales. When this happens, it comes down to Demand, Quality, Market Share, and Location...Sometimes, you may carve out a niche market and develop a name, but sooner or later, it comes down toDemandand Location.
Togain Market Share you must have Quality, and you must have the Capacitiy (Be In Stock).Then,if you can meet the Demandeveryone else isFORCED to follow. If you can not meet the Demand then you will lose Market Share.People remember who has the Market Share that iswithin an acceptable traveldistance (Location). This is the vendor they refer to FIRST, then they check the Capacity and Quality. If the Qualityis withinperception, and you meetthe Capacity, a sale is made and you retain Market Share.
Market Share is very important becauseYou set the PRICE and You are the first to know about the trend. Trend drives Demand, Demand sets the Quality, Quality refers the Market Share in which ultimately leads to Location!, Location!, Location!
Brilyn
Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:52 am
#67
Hey, Sevardos.
Same question:
Are you going to track the Resources used in *every* item you make, and upwardly adjust the price of that item, dependant on the 'current' market value of those resources?
I don't really care if RL economists use "market value losses" in business. I still regard it as gibberish, and/or "How to play with the accounts, 101".
< It doesn't require debate because it's an absolute.>
No.
0 Kelvin is an absolute.
C, the speed of light, is an absolute.
Boyle's Law is an absolute.
"Market Value Losses" is arbitrary. Economics is arbitrary.
And no, I'm not looking to debate it either, because yes, you and I are entrenched in our views. 
I don't disregard you for it, and I'd appreciate same.
However.
If you wish to claim that people need to price (or should, or whatever) with "Market Value Loss" in mind, please answer the following:
Are you going to track the Resources used in *every* item you make, and upwardly adjust the price of that item, dependant on the 'current' market value of those resources?
Or are you going to tell me that this has nothing to do wth "Market Value Loss"?
I only started dismissing "Market Value Loss" when people started claiming it as legitimate in the game. /shrug
RainerRilke
Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:16 am
#68
hi all,
I've been charging 10cpu for all my ship chassis and have had no problem with sales. I price my ships this way to be consistant through out all level of chassis and component. I will mostly likely charge 20cpu for specialized items which require more of my time to find and harvest.
I also give my customers assistance throughout the process of their purchase and use of the equipment they purchase. customer service and a friendly, helpful merchant goes a long way.
money is pretty easy to come by if you are a combat type and especially if you are a master of any crafting trade.
Some may argue, that is their right. If you aren't a crafter you don't understand what it takes to bring all the pieces together as well as provide those items to the public. Not only am I responsible for crafting the item to the best of my ability (which takes time and study) but I am also asked to be knowledgeable on the item and all involved.
In short, price isn't just about how many resources an item contains, it's also about time, effort, and market needs.
loonatik
Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:40 am
#69
Sevardos wrote:
I didn't reply to a specific person - I purposely kept it as a generic statement because I didn't want to start a flame war. It was my way of addressinga pet peeve of mine that I've seen on multiple threads.
loonatik wrote:
Sevardos wrote:
Can we all stop something that makes me cringe every single time I read it?
And thats using real life economics logic to dismiss market value losses versus landed cost (cost of acquiring, manufacturing, harvesting, whatever).
If you want to ignore the market value of resources and only focus on what it cost you to harvest it because it's "just a game" - then please go ahead and all the power to you.
However, lets stop making statements that "market value loss" is not a real loss because it is.It's a fact. It doesn't require debate because it's an absolute. I've seen this in multiple threads and it makes me cringe. If you argue that market value loss doesn't exist in real life, you're only showing, at minimum,your ignorance and continued insistence, at worst, demonstrates your stupidity.
You don't want to apply real life pricing dynamics to a game - thats fine and dandy; it's your $$$ to SOE just like mine and you have every right to do what you please.Lets just not throw the truth out the window in the process shall we?
I'm not really sure how to take your post here. Maybe the original idea for this post was to "unite shipwrights" but the overall theme of the posts have been people sharing their views on how they are pricing their items.
On one hand it sounds like you are saying everyone shouldjust sell their own way. Which is absolutely right. But on the other it sounds like you are condeming people for being concerned about "selling at a loss". Sure it exists in the real world, as ive said above, department stores sell at a loss all the time to get items out the door. But they do understand they are selling at a loss and put it in the books as such. Does it happen in the real world? Yes. Does/Will it happen in the game? Sure. But that dosent make it good business sense for someone to set their prices at 1 cpu because they are harvesting it.
Bottom line, if I see people selling it at those prices, im going to buy it and sell it at my prices. Its cheaper for me to do this, than it is to buy the resources on the open market.
I have not read every single post in this thread and I really have no idea which post you are replying to. Someone in here may have been saying it does not happen in the real world. So my comments are really just a general reply to your statements.
My personal opinion is that it's silly to sell below the market value of the resources to make it. But I also respect the fact that people are free to do as they please.
Agree with you 100%
Pragoron
Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:42 am
#70
Problem 1. I have read only a few of these responses to the opening arguement and the only response that comes to mind is...you greedy littlepig and the same to all of you that support him. 6 cpu for steel. Are you kidding me? Are you trying to tell me that because of supply and demand that steel is more precious than a high quality "Low Grade Ore"? Rarely do I ever see a high concentration of LGO (and one of high quality is even more rare) anywhere on the face of any of the planets especially when it comes to comparing it to the concentration levels of steel and aluminum.
Problem 2. I understand your logic about Bass boats and cars...but it has NEVER shown up here in SWG. People expect the unexpected like healing for free, free entertainment (you non tippers know who you are and don't argue with me..you're out there). You can find a used car on a lot for 5K. Why is it so bad that a novice "grind" ship is 5k. It cost an additional 10K just to get the tags and liscense from the chasis dealer. This alone, at 5K a schematic brings the price to 15K and the ship hasn't even left the yard and more importantly...it can't. Then you have to outfit it....This is a Novice ship....the stuff you have most likely sinks the one you buy on the market because the mass allowed is low. Again. This is a novice ship. That price for stuff you can fit onto your ship is now an additional 10 to 15K. No the price is around 25K or a little higher. And this for a POS. That is fair. Let people get the feel for the ships and how to outfit them. Then for the more advanced ships...the market is open.
Problem 3. Simply put, if you are so worried about having customers or not having enough customers and therefore not being profitible ... don't be a Shipwright. The whole purpose of having a free enterprise system is to be able to weed the weak and the feeble out. I for one will not be putting a low grade quality NOVICE ship on the market for more than 12,000 credits...are you kidding me? Maybe 5,000 or 6,000 The second thing I would say is...make a quality ship, check the market and price it accordingly. If you can't beat the market then find a sucker who will buy it for your rediculous prices...meanwhile, I'll sale one ship after another...starting off with a low quality ship and moving up until they are of high quality. It worked that way for Doctors and it can work that way for Shipwrights.
Possible Solution. And besides...the ship itself is going to be of little concern in a few months like you mentioned. Everyone will have a ship that needs a ship....then it is up to selling componants, and other gidgets and gadgets. It should be that sooner or later the ship will slowly become too damaged to fix and therefore need a Shipwright to OVERHAUL the ship itself. For example...you can't get healed unless you spend countless hours in the medical facility or visit a medic/doctor. You can't go into the cantina and all of a sudden order a drink and BAM!!! you're cured of all your battle fatigue. No...you can't do that. So why is it you can drive up to a garage or a Space Station and fix your ship/speeder to 100%? Not even armor or cloths get fixed to 100%. Fix this problem. Then we won't have pricing wars like this and the Shipwright profession can continue to be one of continued cash flow.
The person who started this whole thread thought very narrowly and thought of only instant profits...fix the problem. Any other ideas on how to fix it so that there are continued profits for Shipwrights?
MickGrey
Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:01 pm
#71
Plain and simple:
I don't have enough lots to mine enough generic resources plus the 7 named resources, in addition to my lot use for factories and storage. I have to buy. A resource cost of 0.2 CPU is out of the question... it is more between 2.5 to 3.5.
It is extremely frustrating to see Tier 1 and even Tier 2 ships on the Bazaar, let alone the Tier 0 Novice ships. I've had several customers send me profanity-laced tells because they bought from me and then found a 5-6K blueprint on the Bazaar sometime later.
The original poster in this thread is correct... the Shipwright profession will end up like Architect if we're not careful. All it takes is for a few grinders to dump all their unwanted ships on the major Bazaars (Theed, Coronet and Bestine) to set pricing expectations for an entire server.
Is this what all of you want?
I don't have enough lots to mine enough generic resources plus the 7 named resources, in addition to my lot use for factories and storage. I have to buy. A resource cost of 0.2 CPU is out of the question... it is more between 2.5 to 3.5.
It is extremely frustrating to see Tier 1 and even Tier 2 ships on the Bazaar, let alone the Tier 0 Novice ships. I've had several customers send me profanity-laced tells because they bought from me and then found a 5-6K blueprint on the Bazaar sometime later.
The original poster in this thread is correct... the Shipwright profession will end up like Architect if we're not careful. All it takes is for a few grinders to dump all their unwanted ships on the major Bazaars (Theed, Coronet and Bestine) to set pricing expectations for an entire server.
Is this what all of you want?
loonatik
Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:14 pm
#72
Brilyn wrote:
Hey, Sevardos.
Same question:
Are you going to track the Resources used in *every* item you make, and upwardly adjust the price of that item, dependant on the 'current' market value of those resources?
I don't really care if RL economists use "market value losses" in business. I still regard it as gibberish, and/or "How to play with the accounts, 101".
< It doesn't require debate because it's an absolute.>
No.
0 Kelvin is an absolute.
C, the speed of light, is an absolute.
Boyle's Law is an absolute.
"Market Value Losses" is arbitrary. Economics is arbitrary.
And no, I'm not looking to debate it either, because yes, you and I are entrenched in our views.
I don't disregard you for it, and I'd appreciate same.
However.
If you wish to claim that people need to price (or should, or whatever) with "Market Value Loss" in mind, please answer the following:
Are you going to track the Resources used in *every* item you make, and upwardly adjust the price of that item, dependant on the 'current' market value of those resources?
Or are you going to tell me that this has nothing to do wth "Market Value Loss"?
I only started dismissing "Market Value Loss" when people started claiming it as legitimate in the game. /shrug
If I am unable to sell the blaster, for whatever reason, bad quality, I made too many and there just was not enough demand, or the wind is blowing the wrong way. Then I do not plan on making more of that item.
Now let’s say I am getting low on that blaster, and I make more of the same blaster, using the same resources. I will gage the current resource market and price those new blasters accordingly. If the old blaster is on there for a lower amount, I would withdraw the sale and put it at the same price with the new blasters.
But if I am still sitting on a stock of them and they have not sold FOR WHATEVER REASON. I would not be making more. Period.
Now let’s say I am getting low on that blaster, and I make more of the same blaster, using the same resources. I will gage the current resource market and price those new blasters accordingly. If the old blaster is on there for a lower amount, I would withdraw the sale and put it at the same price with the new blasters.
But if I am still sitting on a stock of them and they have not sold FOR WHATEVER REASON. I would not be making more. Period.
NOW THE REAL POINT.
You are not disputing any of these ideas. All you are doing isunderhandedly calling people names and trying to divert attention from the real issue at hand. Half the time you arent even making sense in your statements.
So "Get off your soap box" Brilyn.
likwid444
Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:42 pm
#73
Brilyn wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, Sevardos.
Same question: Are you going to track the Resources used in *every* item you make, and upwardly adjust the price of that item, dependant on the 'current' market value of those resources?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brilyn, I guess I am confused on how that question is relevant to every single reply someone has made. I can use the retail cost per unit of a particular resource to help me determine the initial price for a particular crafted item.
Here is an example.
I can create a shirt in real life. It costs me 4 dollars to buy the t shirt. I then put SWG Rules on the tshirt and the material for that costs 2 dollars. I decide to sell the shirt for 10 dollars. The cost of the shirt is 6 dollars to craft.
So I make 50 shirts.
Now lets say the next time I go to make a shirt the price of tshirts has risen to 7 dollars. So now the cost of crafting the shirt is 9 dollars.
In real life I am not going to go readjust the cost of all my previous 50 shirts to match the NEW cost of the tshirt resource. What I will do is adjust the price of the NEW shirts to match my previous profit margin.
I think it is pretty simple. I don't need to readjust the price of previously crafted items to match the new price of a resource.
I am selling the item at the price of the resources at the time of crafting.
likwid444
Mon Nov 01, 2004 12:52 pm
#74
By the way stating that Market Value Loss or Economics in general is arbitrary is incorrect. Arbitrary denotes something left to individual discretion or capriciousness. Economics has a very nature to it at its core, which is pretty much the direct opposite of arbitrary. I could point you to any number of websites containing ABSOLUTE formulas used for calculating production costs and manufacturing valuation.
CerionSkydreamer
Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:01 pm
#75
Pragoron wrote:Goody24 has it exactly...good job. The real challange will be with quality...and the better the quality the more you will sale. If I see armor on the market..it doesn't mean I buy it. If I see a stim pak B at 280 and on sale for 2000 I don't buy it...I'll be getting ripped off. Look at the quality and buy quality (if you want to) you get what you pay for. If you were like me and waiting for this profession to come about and you have been storing resources of high quality then keep saving them for a rainy day until you get the best resources out there and you make the best ship out there...people will buy quality. And then you can price it accordingly..but Novice ships...wow...50K just for the chasis...no way.
Pragoron,
I think you are missing a very good point made by Goody24. The fact that those people who are dumping product on the market now at a loss or for marginal profits are being extremely short sighted because they will not have the capital to compete in the top tier ship market. They will be able to make their one or two ships per week because they mine all their own resources, and will have a very small, small customer base as customers either a). get fed up with waiting for their cheaper ship, b) get fed up because everytime they visit the vendor, it's empty. Whereas the player who buys their resources as well as mines their own, will have enough resources on hand to keep their vendors supplied with top tier ships. To do this requires capital reserves built early on.
So selling ships at a market value which reflects the cost of resources is important in building a cash base for the future. Now of course the cavet to this is the "Rancor Mission" phenomena in which players subsidize their business losses by running missions.
Message Edited by CerionSkydreamer on 11-01-2004 01:06 PM
ZenDragonMLS
Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:24 pm
#76
Right - people who ignore economic and market realities can stay in business for awhile, but in the long run they either lose their customer base by not being able to meet demand, or burn themselves out by not being profitable enough to unchain themselves from the crafting station for awhile.
I agree that people dumping product on the market for below resource value will create a culture in the player base where they will expect that from shipwrights in the future, exactly how the early architects shot themselves and their profession in the foot. However, my experience is that there ARE players who value consultation, convenience, selection, etc and who are perfectly willing to pay for those values. I cultivate those customers in my architect business and will do so in my shipwright business. If a player *only* looks at price, they aren't my customer and never would be, so I don't worry about it.
I agree that people dumping product on the market for below resource value will create a culture in the player base where they will expect that from shipwrights in the future, exactly how the early architects shot themselves and their profession in the foot. However, my experience is that there ARE players who value consultation, convenience, selection, etc and who are perfectly willing to pay for those values. I cultivate those customers in my architect business and will do so in my shipwright business. If a player *only* looks at price, they aren't my customer and never would be, so I don't worry about it.
RutarJopin
Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:40 pm
#77
I play on Corbantis as a Novice Shipwright
I charge 6k for the starter ships (sell very very few of them as most players have moved
direct from the freebie ship to the tier 1 ship which I sell for 45k (3 cpu per unit used)
direct from the freebie ship to the tier 1 ship which I sell for 45k (3 cpu per unit used)
I probably should have charged more since they seem to be able to repaired a infinite
number of times.
number of times.
When I run out of resources that would force me to rely strictly on the bazaar
to complete a item, then I will take a break and start mining again. First going
for Aluminum, then Ore, then Steel. (Basically because I ran out of Aluminum, and Ore
4 days after launch of JTL)
to complete a item, then I will take a break and start mining again. First going
for Aluminum, then Ore, then Steel. (Basically because I ran out of Aluminum, and Ore
4 days after launch of JTL)
I do it for fun, and have several people relying on me for special orders which I feel
it a pleasure to serve since the guild I belong to is long MIA (except for 3 of us)
it a pleasure to serve since the guild I belong to is long MIA (except for 3 of us)
I am crafting Shipwright to be able to make myself a YT-1300 (since I am a privateer)
After Master then and only then will I worry about charging more than 3 CPU.
After Master then and only then will I worry about charging more than 3 CPU.
Just my 2 cents
Rutar Jopin
Corbantis - City of Soy
Corbantis - City of Soy
Cafa
Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:42 pm
#78
Brilyn wrote:
< my question for all of you that sell parts on the cheap is would you have a problem if I bought the parts you sold at 5cpu and sold them for 10-20cpu? >
Doesn't really bother me, to be honest.
For the most part, I set the price for an item at the amount of credits I want for it.
For the most part.
However, you buying out my vendor and reselling is detracting from my business. If I choose to sell at 5cpu to pilots, it's because I'm looking at the long-term gain of repeat business. Not a once-off sale.
Not just the financial, but the reciprocal gain. Of pilots bringing me Looted components to RE. Of Pilots discussing with me their needs, and sending their friends to me.
If you buyout my vendor, you impact *that* aspect of my business.
So I'll ban you.
So, you are a underseller that's trying to drive people out of the market. You've stated openly you don't care about anyone else, or profit. AFAIC you're fair game on any level. PVP isn't only with weapons.
BTW, you can only ban 36 people or line items on any structure. We would make your life interesting on Tempest because I'm sure we could round a few hundred people to buy you out, many Europeans, so we'd have all time zones covered.
Your costs are not 0.2 cpu. That's a falsehood propagated by incorrect math. If you choose to sell below reasonable costs to be a jerk, expect to be on a lot of people's radar.
Honestly, there are better ways to deal with people like this than buying them out. Just have random people send them tells constantly asking for orders. Anyone rememeber Player City rushes?
Anyone rememeber Player City rushes?Fivo Asia