Shipwright Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
styx66 wrote:
So I can have a single thread to point our devs at, lets get a single comprehensive thread on your thoughts and examples of how (and which) looted items are better than crafted.
My experience so far is that the major blunder is capacitors, followed by engines (low YPR on crafted) and, honestly, weapons (low Vs. A and Vs. S drop damage (.5 avgcompared to .6 or more on loot).
Message Edited by styx66 on 11-22-2004 10:07 PM
Right now it makes no sense to put any experimentation points into Y/P/R because since these stats are seperate, you have to burn ALL your exp points to get any noticable benefit.
Message Edited by rexan on 11-29-2004 01:05 PM
styx66 wrote:
So I can have a single thread to point our devs at, lets get a single comprehensive thread on your thoughts and examples of how (and which) looted items are better than crafted.
My experience so far is that the major blunder is capacitors, followed by engines (low YPR on crafted) and, honestly, weapons (low Vs. A and Vs. S drop damage (.5 avgcompared to .6 or more on loot).
Share some examples of what you've found on a consistent basisthat is always better than what we can loot.
For instance: I'm finding most level2 or 3 looted capacitors with approx 800-900 total energy and a recharge of anywhere from 32 to 35. My crafted (with very good materials) maxes at about 700 energy, with about 23 recharge. Usually at twice the mass as well. Just not worth making.
Keep in mind there will be loot that is better, that won't go away. It seems that the frequency needs to be toned down. I'm using a lot of loot in my own ships and my parts are free. It was worse in beta. My ships were almost 100% loot. Is this happening to you and your customers?
Message Edited by styx66 on 11-22-2004 10:07 PM
MonsofoLexius wrote:
I highly disagree on this one. I have 4 or 5 level 2-3reactors under3K mass with12K-15K power generation, all looted. Plus my level 8 33K mass 28K+ generation. More power than a fully overcharged MP ship could use. I dont think either of these can be touched. And Il'l point you to this thread for a discussion about 20K generation reactors.
BUT I THINK WE ARE MISSING THE POINT!!
How can we be saying that 1/2 of our stuff is better, the other half loot takes the cake AND BE OK WITH IT?!?!?!?
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 11-24-2004 10:53 AM
I think we need understand that the JTL system is different than the ground game.
1. Loot in space is fun. I actually look forward to getting loot, as its usually has a good change of being something useful. Unlike the ground game where 99.9% of the loot is a CDEF or broken datapad.
2. I would like to see our crafted items on par with some of the looted items. This would be especially true for engines and capicators. Also, high end reactors seem to be bugged in that the best crafted reactor is around 19k, while looted reactors have reported to have as high as 35k generation rate.
3. I think we have to accept the fact that RE'd items are going to be hands down, the best in the game. However, the nice part here is that we are still going to be in the loop with RE'ing them. Its just not something we will be able to push on our vendors, unless we have a good source for looted items (which will be harder now that the chassis vendor buys loot)
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
QFE, I totally, totally agree with that last statement. Here's what it boils down to for me: a looted component, as-is, should *never* be better overall than what we can craft....there should be one random stat thatalso has a random chance of being better, but that's it.
Why?
Then you just end up with the same situation as you have in the ground game where most loot is worthless and the really good bits are rare and overly expensive.
The current system is fine, Shipwrights can still make better stuff most of the time and loot still is fun and interesting.
Also remember that SW is new, you have yet to get the best possible out of things as the special resources have yet to spawn at their best. You can make good stuff, you can make good money you don't need a total monopoly as that means that loot is boring.
Oh and thanks to those of you who one starred my last post just for expressing a different opinion to you, though I fully expect the same to happen to this post.
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
Loot itself is way too plentiful to have it be better than crafted a majority of the time. The end result of RE'ing however especially on the high end of the spectrum won't be nearly so plentiful as to cut the shipwright profession down at the knees.
Loot isn't better than crafted the majority of the time, the only situation for which this is true is with capacitors, YPR on engines (crafted engines win on speed) and energy use / energy on boosters (again crafted win on speed and match on acceleration)
With everything else crafted out performs looted 99.9% of the time, so you do have a balanced situation with the exception of the fact that crafted capacitors are never any good under any circumstances, or so I am told.
Isn't this a balanced situation? I certainly feel that it is (with the noted capacitor exception).
to this end, they should make crafted parts BETTER, not make looted parts WORSE. that would give everyone the feeling of progress, instead of feeling like they just took a huge step backwards. it would also give us pilots that have decent loot already a reason to upgrade to crafted parts and jump start the shipwright econonmy.
For the sake of SWG and my own fun, I am so afraid that some players are going to have the game ruined so that a few mass producers can make it rich at the expense of the majority of the player base. I know right now that some shipwrights are complaining about the quality of looted components and want to have them changed. Additionally they are complaining about players selling loot to the chassis vendors and about how much they get for the loot.
I think we should be very careful what we asked in terms of comparing crafted items with loot items. Much loot is not as good as crafted stuff, but there are drops that are a bit better at least in one category such as top speed, ypr, etc (for engines)
In my opinion every class of loot should have some drops in a single stat which is better than what a crafter could possibly make. If crafters can make everything better than loot, then we will essentially be nullifying the purpose of reverse engineering and loot will become relatively worthless.
I say this as someone who is almost master pilot and who is also shipwright. I am doing SW to make missiles and bombs for my guild, as well as the fun of RE-ING loot to make really specialized components.
For example, I have a level 8 engine with very Low mass. I have another level 8 engine with great speed but poor ypr. I still have another level 8 with great ypr but not as much speed as #2 and greater mass than #1. Now I am trying to see what I can find that has as little energy drain as I can get.
So, for me, being a shipwright will not be about mass-producing items, it will be about making bombs and missiles (ammunition) and chaff for the end game. I also want to create highly specialized components through RE.
I want to make an analogy to weaponssmith. What if every weaponssmith suddenly determined that kryat weapons were superior to what we could craft out of the box, that they petitioned to have "out of the box" weapons as powerful as kryat ones? That would destroy the game for the weaponsmiths who specialized in high end weapons. It would also ruin the fun for high end loot hunters and PVPers. Why? Just so that the mass producers could control the high end market niche, not via effort in game but through politics outside the game (in the forums).
Secondly, as a pilot/shipwright the loot prices that the chassis dealer pays makes the game much more fun for everyone who is not a shipwright. If they severely nerfed payouts for space loot it would take the game back to what it was for me before JTL. A boring, never-ending grind which is not worth playing. (hence I was gone for 6 months) I have am having allott of fun with many aspects of JTL the way it is now and this includes PVP. I am actually using my pilot to pay for my shipwright grind. I plan to be small time but highly specialized. My gameplay is designed to work within the system, not change it.
Unfortunately the people who are out playing the game and are enjoying it generally won't be here on the boards or more noteably in the shipwright forums to stand up for themselves. This leaves many people vulnerable to the more political minded who have the intelligence and persuasiveness to convince the developers to change the gameplay to favor them, at the expense of the great majority. So all I am asking is please be very careful what you ask for. Chances are you will get it because you are more vocal and in the process you could very well ruin the game for many people who are having a ton of fun.
Another good example of a bad part are boosters. An avrage looted booster is better than a crafted level 2-4 levels higher.
Shields at low levels are better crafted but at higher levels seem a bit low.
Droid controle devices are messed up as loot. The speed goes up when down is better. Crafted these are no good either they are just to slow and way to heavy.
Eng's are still to slow in turning. With good resorces and all experimentation put into speed the default turning and role should be 60 to match nice looted eng's and still wouldent be as good as nice re'd eng's done well.
Weapons you know are better looted. And re'd weapons are way better than crafted. Increasing crafted default damage to shields/ armor to .55 with good resorces default would be nice for the blaster style. And for the ones focusing on armor/shields they should be .8 to the intended and at least .3 but .4 would help compeat with well re'd loot. All the damage should go up a bit but the energy per shot seems decent.
Armor needs to be lighter to match loot.
The way eng's effect ships needs to be changed. Perhaps a seporate mass for eng's and allow the fighters that should be fast 2 lightweight eng slots wile the heavy bomber style have 1 heavyer bay for eng's.
I only have one thing to say in response to this. Whenever the question of loot has come up in the past, the devs answer has always been that they would never do anything to hurt crafters. In my opinion, looted components smacks right in the face of this philosophy.
Talonsin wrote:
Dont change the loot at all! Why is that always the answer people come up with? If anything changes, change the quality of the crafted items and make them better.
Never take away from us, always look to how you can give us more! Thats the secret to keeping a gaming community happy. Put the nerf bat away forever.
the solution to this is to leave loot alone and make crafted BETTER.
the only problem i can see with this is that it might make the game too easy. but thats easy to fix too; make the ai ships more powerful.