Shipwright Archive

Thread: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables

TommyBoy73110
Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:41 am
#53
My only issue is capacitors, yes I think that some looted guns are better and especially in the vs. armor / vs. shields area, but this is someplace that i could experiment in i just dont. I think the flexibility of the experimentation in weapons is enough to keep us in business, however I have NEVER sold even 1 crafted capacitor, they are utterly horible now, when someone asks me for one, i pull one out of my loot, because i know that I can't even come close to a crappy looted capacitor with a crafted one.

Rao
Zilod
Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:50 am
#54




Kiashia wrote:




lisasdarren wrote:

I am not a SW myself, but I am good friends with the SW in my guild and know what he is producing.


There are any number of SW's here complaining that they can't craft items to compete with loot:


  • reactors

  • boosters

  • shields

  • weapons

Well you can, I have yet to see a looted reactor that compares with the Mk II crafted one I use, weapons and shields he crafts out-do nearly all looted ones, heck I have done the sums on what looked like a fantastic looted one (0.8 vs A & S) and it was weaker than an equivelent crafted one (though I havn't looked and RE level 8 and above). We used to all use looted boosters, until he figured out the trick for making them and now his crafted ones far outstrip looted ones.



The only components that he cannot compete on are capacitors and engines. Even on engines he can make ones that are faster for their mass than most looted ones, and driving a bomber the YPR doesn't matter much.


So in summary, currently the only item that is always worse than looted are capacitors, and in many cases, but not always, engines.


Maybe with capacitors it is a case of finding the trick to producing them, or maybe crafted really are worse in all cases (which i agree is a bit borked, there should be some way to make it better under certain circumstances)


However crafted should not be best under all conditions, the fact that there is usable loot makes the game more fun, SW's still have the ability to make the best in most categories.


This gives you a sustainable business, maybe you need to spend more time learning your craft, maybe you just need to wait for better resources, maybe looted capacitors will always have the potential to out-do crafted, but there are plenty of components that don't.


I'd suggest waiting at least a couple more months to see the effect of new resource spawns, new tricks that are discovered by the SW community etc. before crying NERF on loot and alienating your main customers, the pilots who love the looting in space.





All i have to say is this:



I can craft 16 k level 7 reactors, I have a looted level 8 28k reactor.

I have looted a 17k mass 18k energy reactor... but still i use low level one... for example i have a crafted lv1 reactor 1k mass 11k energy and it power a 3 weapon 2.5k shield X-wing running engine and weapon3... why i should put in it a 17k mass awesome uber looted reactor when a 1k mass crafted one is just fine? (this both for looted and crafted) Also yup some looted are better than crafted but from the last patch 99% of them are crap.


I can craft 1500+ shields, i have looted 2500+ shields

This is not a looted shield but a tier4 reward one, i have it too and is awesome but is not a loot problem is a reward one.


I can craft 1300 level 7 armor,I have looted 1500 level 7 armor

I have a crafted lv5 armors with 1k armor/hits and decent mass, why i should use a lv7 that weight 3 times of it to grab just 200-400 hps? not to say that armor decay faaaaaaast so dunno how much a rare looted one is really worth.


I can craft 1500-2500 level 7 weapons, i have looted 2000-3000 level 8 weapons.

level7 weapons with around 0.3 speed, lv8 ones with over 0.4 speed and more efficency... craftedlv7 weight almost half than a lv8 for generally same or better damage over time (there is a lv8 reward gun with 2.5k-3.6k damage but again this is a reward problem)


I can craft 89-91 engines (with enhancers) i have a fewlooted 92 engines and I have looted level 2 engines with 70+ speeds

A looted engine that doesn't exist enymore, probably same for the level 2 ones, all the engines post patch i looted have crappy speed, best lv10 i found is 90 speed and 50k mass...

Also crafted engines can be used with Engine4 that can give them 10% more speed and good maneuverability, whitout the fear to loose an uber item.


I have a looted 48.9 recharge cap and looted many level 2 caps with 37-40 recharge

I agree looted caps are waaaaay better than crafted ones, some fix is necessary (hopefully a boost in SW ones) also as for most items i will never use a 50+ recharge item if it weight 30k mass.


I have looted 8.5 droid interfaces

With 20k mass at best, you can put them only in a multiplayer ship, actually droid interfaces are quite "useless" in my opinion lowest mass in this component is the thing to look at.


Do we really want loot nerfed?OR do we want to craft better i think crafting better withmore options would be better solution then pissing off the masses by nerfing loot.

I agree that there are some imbalances, but most of the time is due to reward items not looted ones, while other times simply items works in a different way (like lv7 vs lv8 guns).

I will also like to see items utility fixed, for a lot of items a lv1 to 3 is just sufficent to run the ship well so all other higher level ones are simply useless.

For other items (like armors) sometimes the mass required for a minimal benefit is also so high that is not worth even in the highest mass fighters.





Kiashia
Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:56 pm
#55




Zilod wrote:




Kiashia wrote:


All i have to say is this:



I can craft 16 k level 7 reactors, I have a looted level 8 28k reactor.

I have looted a 17k mass 18k energy reactor... but still i use low level one... for example i have a crafted lv1 reactor 1k mass 11k energy and it power a 3 weapon 2.5k shield X-wing running engine and weapon3... why i should put in it a 17k mass awesome uber looted reactor when a 1k mass crafted one is just fine? (this both for looted and crafted) Also yup some looted are better than crafted but from the last patch 99% of them are crap.

I have a 13k level 2 one i use in my own ship. I find 11 12 and 13k level 1 and 2's all the time.



I can craft 1500+ shields, i have looted 2500+ shields

This is not a looted shield but a tier4 reward one, i have it too and is awesome but is not a loot problem is a reward one.

No not the reward one i have that too, i have a couple loot ones that go 2300-2500 even level 7's that break 2 k.


I can craft 1300 level 7 armor,I have looted 1500 level 7 armor

I have a crafted lv5 armors with 1k armor/hits and decent mass, why i should use a lv7 that weight 3 times of it to grab just 200-400 hps? not to say that armor decay faaaaaaast so dunno how much a rare looted one is really worth.

Thats not the point, itsthe fact they are better then crafted.


I can craft 1500-2500 level 7 weapons, i have looted 2000-3000 level 8 weapons.

level7 weapons with around 0.3 speed, lv8 ones with over 0.4 speed and more efficency... craftedlv7 weight almost half than a lv8 for generally same or better damage over time (there is a lv8 reward gun with 2.5k-3.6k damage but again this is a reward problem)

Tick for tack. You can RE them, lighter and faster. I craft my blasters with a .25 speed fires so fast a 48 cap cant cope.


I can craft 89-91 engines (with enhancers) i have a fewlooted 92 engines and I have looted level 2 engines with 70+ speeds

A looted engine that doesn't exist enymore, probably same for the level 2 ones, all the engines post patch i looted have crappy speed, best lv10 i found is 90 speed and 50k mass...

Also crafted engines can be used with Engine4 that can give them 10% more speed and good maneuverability, whitout the fear to loose an uber item.

LOL WRONG I JUST got a 71 speed level 2 on thursday.



I have a looted 48.9 recharge cap and looted many level 2 caps with 37-40 recharge

I agree looted caps are waaaaay better than crafted ones, some fix is necessary (hopefully a boost in SW ones) also as for most items i will never use a 50+ recharge item if it weight 30k mass.


I have looted 8.5 droid interfaces

With 20k mass at best, you can put them only in a multiplayer ship, actually droid interfaces are quite "useless" in my opinion lowest mass in this component is the thing to look at.

I don't use droid interfaces either but crafted ones are just as heavy.


Do we really want loot nerfed?OR do we want to craft better i think crafting better withmore options would be better solution then pissing off the masses by nerfing loot.

I agree that there are some imbalances, but most of the time is due to reward items not looted ones, while other times simply items works in a different way (like lv7 vs lv8 guns).

I will also like to see items utility fixed, for a lot of items a lv1 to 3 is just sufficent to run the ship well so all other higher level ones are simply useless.

For other items (like armors) sometimes the mass required for a minimal benefit is also so high that is not worth even in the highest mass fighters.









The issues are not so much with the loot items to me as it is the issues are with the crafted items. Looted items can be made better, ALOT better in many cases, crafted items come as is. They need to look more on fixing the crafting then nerfing the loot cause if they nerf the loot, with out fixing the crafting first then there will be major issues.



For one you can not fit all player crafted items into anA wing, there simply is not enough mass unless you use low end crafted items.

A wing holds around 65k mass.


  • markIV shields 15 k

  • 90 speed engine 35k

  • advanced blaster15k


Thats 65 k right there with no cap no armor no reactor droid interface etc etc etc etc. Now this is suposed to be a super fast ship, highly manuverable.

So what fits the bill?


  • low end high speed engines loot

  • low end super light reactorsloot

  • crafted shields

  • crafted weapons

  • light weight armor (crafted or looted)

  • lightweight higer speed looted boosters

  • No droid interface or old lightweight high speed ones

  • No ordinance

  • No counter mesures

If they nerf the looted items with out fixing the craftable or adding light weight high end motors, the A wingand all other low mass ships like it will bevery un-fun when as they are putting around at a snappy 800 they are suddenly faced with tier 4 fighters that move at least 1100 cruising speeds .



Kiashia [90 Elder Jedi, 90 Spy, 90 Medic, 90 Bounty hunter, 90 Commando] The crystal is the heart of the blade. The heart is the crystal of the Jedi. The Jedi is the crystal of the Force. The Force is the blade of the heart.

nnn((((((((((nnnn]9X9ggggggggggggggggggggg)


Zilod
Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:17 pm
#56




Kiashia wrote:


The issues are not so much with the loot items to me as it is the issues are with the crafted items. Looted items can be made better, ALOT better in many cases, crafted items come as is. They need to look more on fixing the crafting then nerfing the loot cause if they nerf the loot, with out fixing the crafting first then there will be major issues.



For one you can not fit all player crafted items into anA wing, there simply is not enough mass unless you use low end crafted items.

A wing holds around 65k mass.


  • markIV shields 15 k

  • 90 speed engine 35k

  • advanced blaster15k


Thats 65 k right there with no cap no armor no reactor droid interface etc etc etc etc. Now this is suposed to be a super fast ship, highly manuverable.

So what fits the bill?


  • low end high speed engines loot

  • low end super light reactorsloot

  • crafted shields

  • crafted weapons

  • light weight armor (crafted or looted)

  • lightweight higer speed looted boosters

  • No droid interface or old lightweight high speed ones

  • No ordinance

  • No counter mesures

If they nerf the looted items with out fixing the craftable or adding light weight high end motors, the A wingand all other low mass ships like it will bevery un-fun when as they are putting around at a snappy 800 they are suddenly faced with tier 4 fighters that move at least 1100 cruising speeds .





in my opinion this problem is not of crafting items but of ships mass system, in the example above are not the crafted engines crappy with ther 35k mass is the mass model that prevent to a light fighter to fit a better engine

Also in the last patch crafted engines got a nice boost /cheer, and some uber common loot items like low level engines or reactor seem to drop way less frequently.


these are some stats i found in the thread "post patch engines" in this forum


quote




MK IV - about 88.9-90 depending on resources
MK V - 103-105 as above





YPR seem to be around mid 50 but this is not a big problem

as they are crafted engines you can put engine overload4 to improve speed by 40% and YPR by way more than engine overload3

this will make these engines comparable to a looted lv7-8 100 speed engine and to a looted level 9-10 110+speed engine that are really awesome engines


these are top end new engines and generally are far better than looted ones


coming back to the A-wing here a possible config


  • lv7 crafted shield 15k

  • lv7 90speed crafted engine 15k

  • lv7 adv speed blaster or ion 15k

  • lv1 crafted 1k mass 11k energy reactor

  • lv1 droid comp 500 mass

  • lv2 30+ looted capacitator 1.5k

it come out with 48k mass, i have 17k more mass to fit armor and booster or maybe a lv9 weapon with a bit of luck and an high quality chassis or even the reward shield if i can RE it for a decent mass.... it can even try to fit a 100speed engine but he have to drop the shield to a lv5 1.2k (who in the end is just 500 points less than the lv7


as you can see using mostly crafted components i can end up with a very good A-wing that with engine4 should have a speed of around 1250 and a very good maneuverability.


with some very good (rare) loot probably it can come out even better, but with some really rare or reward stuff, also looking around i don't see many A-wing superior to this one for speed, even among the ones that use the old engine or some "common" loot.


Now if the A-wing is still quite viable ship is not the same for lighter fighters like the BS light fighterand the TIE In, with their 40k is way more harder to keep a good functionality but this not because differences between looted or crafted but just because with their low mass they have troubles to fit competitive equipement, expecially the engine to be able to have their superior speed that is needed for they style of flightm.


For exampleeven if one of the uber old "uber" 70speed lv2 looted enginesthey will never be able to catch an oppressor with a craftedspeed 100 engine.

Liveware
Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:46 am
#57


I've been a shipwright for little over a week, my PA got right behind me and pulled together to help me master, I spent most of my time gathering High Quality resources to make with, while my PA provided me with grind resources and credits to buy them with,


I'm now finding that I can't match many of the looted components they are getting e.g my best shield 2500 and we're finding looted shields of 3000-3500 , basically my PA wasted their credits and time as when they come to me they find I can't make kit better than they can loot.


I spent all my gametime on working to get a crafting profession, all I'm left with that's any use is the ability to combine loot to make it a little bit better and make missiles, I like to craft but why am I gathering masses of resources to make stuff that no one wants to buy? yes you need a lot of resource to master but you also need alot to run a business and I'm exclusive to one medium sized PA. I dropped my smuggling skills on the promise of a new crafting profession, I wish I'd waited.


the whole IDEA and complexity of shipwright was very attractive to someone who likes crafting , the reality is no one needs your skills. Of all those fun schematics you're pretty much left with chassis and ammunition that is any use the rest is pointless and a waste of programming hours by SOE


in a nut shell my experience of shipwright is its a waste of time my advice to anyone considering itwould bedon't bother until SOE balance it out IF they ever do.



Sien_Chotor
Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:05 pm
#58
Im having the same problem, almost all my customers are using 90% loot parts in their ships, and about the only business I get is when they come to me to RE loot parts for them. Its rediculous how much better the loot parts are than crafted, and how common they are.



Horox Airago
Jedi Master
Craxus
Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:16 am
#59

I'm not a shipwright, but I work closely with them.


I have noticed that crafted shields have a better recharge rate than any of the shields I loot.


I don't know what parts you guys are finding, but since 11.2 I haven't looted a single Item that even comes close to a crafted item.


Out of all of the people I have contact with the vast majority have more crafted parts than REed verisons.


Most of the people I know have equiped there ships with player made Ion and Disruptor cannons that have over .850 effectiveness versus shield and armor respectively.


What is the actual problem? The only reason I use a looted part over a crafted one is because its free.


Maybe the loot is different on your server, but on mine its crap. I loot nothing but crap. A lot of it could be REed into decent stuff, but 99% is crap.


I find level 10 engines with 72k mass and stats of a level 1 engine.


Message Edited by Craxus on 11-29-2004 12:20 AM



Colonel Craxus Blade, Imperial Bounty Hunter/Master Carbineer(not so much)

Vorean Blade, Elder Jedi (Yeah my Glow stick is faster than your's)
Julia_uk
Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:27 am
#60

I'm a master SW, but just working for my guild I'm also a complete geek and have spreadsheeted everything to work out what's the best kit to send them out with.


Notatti looks closest to what I've found, just got a few comments to add for anyone who cares about the details.




Notatti wrote:
I process and reverse alot of loot as I am the master shipwright for a 5 player group.From what I have been able to tell, good quality seems to run on the odds.


Armor : Crafted has more strength but higher mass.



The light lootcan usually be beaten by crafted of a lower level as it can have less mass and more armour. Always go for well-made crafted on this one, but be prepared to take lower cert than you could use if mass/RED are an issue.




Boosters : Odd rule here. Level 2 4 6 and 8 are better than 1 3 7 9 respectfully. So a looted level 2 is better overall then a looted level 3. All equal levels are better then crafted.



And capacitors. Aye, I found even-numbered thing too. I thought I was going mad.



Reactors : Odd rule again : Looted 2 is better than 3 ect... Sweet spot is a looted level 4 that can have close to 15k output. The one I personally use is a level 4 reversed with 2315 mass and 14573.6 output.


I think that is a pretty special looted part you have there! Generally I find crafted better than looted, using the optional overcharger (again, if you don't like the mass, use a mark lower).



Shields : Tough one actually. I feel that all shields in the game are less than what they need to be. If npc and playerstrength was increased I think it would provide longer more involved battles. Though, much could be debated on which stat is best on shields, I prefer a high recharge rate.


Absolutely its the recharge rate that matters. Shields are actually near what I'd callbalanced (most loot lower than crafted, but some loot better). Only thing is the higher RE level loot is way too heavy, and the ranges of possible RED on all of it look way too big.


My conclusions are:


Loot is best for: Boosters (even RE levels), Capacitors (even RE levels), Sheilds (only sometimes)


Crafted it best: Armour, Reactors, Shields (most of the time)


Haven't made my mind up about guns and engines yet, but its looking good for loot at the moment. Deeply unimpressed with the revamp to increase speed of crafted engines, but still pants manouverability. Still, I'm sure SWs can find muppets who want to buy engines that go fast in straight lines... it means they'll be coming back for more armour!
Zilod
Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:53 am
#61




Julia_uk wrote:



Still, I'm sure SWs can find muppets who want to buy engines that go fast in straight lines... it means they'll be coming back for more armour!



lol


just a thing... with engine overload4 the YPR is not so important as the program will boost it a lot, for eample i found the same ship with a 60 YPR engine and EO4 more maneuverable than with a 74 YPR one and EO3.


also in some rare occasionsEO4 can end in a ship difficult to maneuver if the YPR is too high, during beta sometimes it happened and even if here the engines have less YPR i think that it could still happen for some looted high end ones with some flight models (just speculation).


Rhysen
Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:15 am
#62




Zilod wrote:




Julia_uk wrote:



Still, I'm sure SWs can find muppets who want to buy engines that go fast in straight lines... it means they'll be coming back for more armour!



lol


just a thing... with engine overload4 the YPR is not so important as the program will boost it a lot, for eample i found the same ship with a 60 YPR engine and EO4 more maneuverable than with a 74 YPR one and EO3.


also in some rare occasionsEO4 can end in a ship difficult to maneuver if the YPR is too high, during beta sometimes it happened and even if here the engines have less YPR i think that it could still happen for some looted high end ones with some flight models (just speculation).








Using the Force, or rather past experience with developers in the real world, I predict that if this continues on the path it's on that EO will get nerfed to not affect he YPR characteristics on a ship. Not sure why it does so already as it skews the roles of the ship tremendously. I mean, what's the point of flying an X-Wing if you can use a Y-Wing LongPig with EO tonegate the deficient maneuverability? To be entirely honest, I don't even understand why engines have YPR values on them. That's really a flight characterstic of the chassis and has nothing to do with the engine in my mind, short of stress on the craft's frame which isn't as large aconcern in SciFi space sims (lower inertia than atmospheric flight and all the fictional equipment like inertial compensators/structural integrity fields to explain away the impossible).

Zilod
Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:39 am
#63




Rhysen wrote:



Using the Force, or rather past experience with developers in the real world, I predict that if this continues on the path it's on that EO will get nerfed to not affect he YPR characteristics on a ship. Not sure why it does so already as it skews the roles of the ship tremendously. I mean, what's the point of flying an X-Wing if you can use a Y-Wing LongPig with EO tonegate the deficient maneuverability? To be entirely honest, I don't even understand why engines have YPR values on them. That's really a flight characterstic of the chassis and has nothing to do with the engine in my mind, short of stress on the craft's frame which isn't as large aconcern in SciFi space sims (lower inertia than atmospheric flight and all the fictional equipment like inertial compensators/structural integrity fields to explain away the impossible).






Yup i think that too but also is not exactly true that EO negates all effects in maneuverability, the differences between ships are still there, like the best turning speed also is true that the heavier ship rotate faster but it doesn't get the new direction till some seconds (they have a big inertia).

Is quite evident when you fly near asteroids or the station (a thing that i don't know why but i like to do ) with big ships it seem you are skating around with the ships that go in a direction and you that rotate and give thrust to compensate, this thing doesn't happens to lighter ships that keep a good turning rate.

so overall the lighter ships have still the upper hand in "true" maneuverability, while the "cockpick" turning rate is more similar.

We can say that heavier shipsare more viable with EO but not that they become equal to interceptors.


Also this is quite a complex and long issue and about roles, differentiation of ships, content for various roles and much more.
warrenbassist
Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:07 am
#64
My ship is 50% loot 50% crafted. I hope this is temporary, just to jumpstart the market so shipwright prices don't get out of control.
TalonKarrdeTN
Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:21 am
#65




Kiashia wrote:


All i have to say is this:



I can craft 16 k level 7 reactors, I have a looted level 8 28k reactor.

I can craft 1500+ shields, i have looted 2500+ shields

I can craft 1300 level 7 armor,I have looted 1500 level 7 armor

I can craft 1500-2500 level 7 weapons, i have looted 2000-3000 level 8 weapons.

I can craft 89-91 engines (with enhancers) i have a fewlooted 92 engines and I have looted level 2 engines with 70+ speeds

I have a looted 48.9 recharge cap and looted many level 2 caps with 37-40 recharge

I have looted 8.5 droid interfaces


Do we really want loot nerfed?OR do we want to craft better i think crafting better withmore options would be better solution then pissing off the masses by nerfing loot.




QFE, I totally, totally agree with that last statement. Here's what it boils down to for me: a looted component, as-is, should *never* be better overall than what we can craft....there should be one random stat thatalso has a random chance of being better, but that's it. RE'ing, however, should produce components that *are* better than crafted. And before anyone balks at that, keep in mind, to RE a component, the higher the level the more components of that type it takes to reverse engineer....so having RE'd components be better would do little harm to the profession because it's not like you'd see a plethora of these better RE'd components just overrunning your business or driving it away. So basically here's what I would do:


(1.) Increase our ability/range of affectation during experimentation on crafting components, with particular emphasis on areas where it's just stupidly wrong/out of whack(i.e. capacitor recharge rates for example). Also in general along this line of thinking, if you're going to have the highest tier components increase so rapidly in mass, make the other stats scale proportionally and in parallel fashion. It's ridiculous when you have Mark IV/Level 7 crafted components that have an incredibly higher mass value but yet by comparison maybe have 10-15% higher stats in the important categories.


(2.) Leave the loot rates as-is, but do a balance pass on loot to make sure there's never more than one stat (at random) that can be better than the max craftable range after #1 is taken care of.


(3.)Changethe RE percentage rates that get tacked on after the highest stat values are tossed in the pota little so that you get a bit more of an increase and a bit more of a reward for RE'ing higher end component that take alot of time/effort to acquire all the pieces for.....but do so with balance in mind (i.e. make getting higher end RE's more rewarding but don't go overboard with it and create ridiculously unbalanced items). As an example. I'd probably change the rates at each level to 1.5x and adjust/balance as necessary from there if any tweaking was needed.







Characters:
Tynd (formerly Tyndaleon) Starstrider (human)
Tharilac Crey'lya (bothan)
Tibattican (wookiee)
Tiomeg Bysik (ithorian)

Beta & Day 1 Tarq Vet, Longtime Officer & Member of the Order of Infinity (IFN), Current member of Wraith Squadron (WSQ)
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