Shipwright Archive

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Rowgue wrote:

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Dont make me laugh, I am one of the most successful MSW on our server, i've seen your posts about costings on your server and im sorry you have to deal with that, but quit bringing your servers issues to all of us.

I can handle this profession as anyone that knows me will reaffirm, fact is 15 lots do not produce enough to keep up with my production levels.

Just as a side point, with all your moaning about costings, and wanting free stuff from to fall from the sky how much do/did you charge for a buff?

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Ok first of all I don't have any problem with any shipwright pricing their goods at whatever level they feel is appropriate. It was other shipwrights who hijacked the thread that brought this issue up, I was merely responding to them.

You say 15 lots can not keep up with your production levels. You are illustrating the point I made in one of my responses. I allow for the fact that you may not be able to harvest enough resources to keep up the kind of production you want. That is however your choice. Your the one that needs to have a huge business for whateverreason thatmay be. You can go buy your stuff if you want to be able to keep that up, and you can charge more for your products. I'm not judging here I'm just saying that not everyone needs to have a massive amount of products on 14 vendors at all times, and there is no promise either implicit or explicit that you will be able to do so. So to say that it is not plausible because 15 lots does not support the scale of business you feel you need to run proves absolutely nothing.

I will ignore the personal attack in your final comment and just respond to your question. I reiterate I never mentioned "costings" until shipwrights started bitching about how they have to charge so much because they have to buy tons of resources. I also never asked for free stuff to fall from the sky. If you bother to read the original post I was talking about how I used to make good money asa shipwright selling RE'd components, but now it takes me weeks to loot enough parts to put together a finished RE component. As for buffs I never really did buffs for money, as the starports were always flooded with 10 other docs spamming their stats and prices. As I do not believe in spamming for any reason, I quickly determined this was not my bag. I just used my doc skills to support myself and my friends when we went out hunting. I made a few bucks doing it as sometimes people would send me tells saying "I'll pay you 10k if you'll buff me" even though I was not looking to do so at the time. I made very little money as a doctor, I used my skills almost primarily to support me and my friends in battle, and I made my money from running missions.

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Diorchas wrote:

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Arryth wrote:

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1st_Viduus wrote:

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Arryth wrote:

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1st_Viduus wrote:

non-master ship...?

Tier 4 ship at 300k is cost if you paid 5cpu for your resources average, (some at 3, some at 5, some at 10, for example) to come up with the 70% experimentation on mass allowance everyone clamors for, plus 4 or 5 uses of damn expensive Port to guarantee no crit fail.

Selling it at 400k is hardly what I'd call gouging.

For a weapon though... yeah, I'd have to agree with you there. A decent guide to pricing components (full-sized) is Cert Level Squared. But crafted guns are pretty horrid IMO compared to almost any gun I've RE'd, so I rarely bother making them.

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My point is.. you guys should be bugging the deves to lower resourse requirements not nerf our loot, and thereby bringing the wrath of the pilot community down on you. All the asking for nerfs here is going to do is anger your customers. Were already still very angry about the last engine nerf. Frankly.. for ship parts and components.. I do not consider any more then 6cpu to be reasonable for ships and parts, adding to the cost the port if you use it. Thats still a decent profit, unless your buying overpriced resourses...

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Most of us are NOT asking for nerf loots. I'm a pilot first, MSW 2nd.
Most of us are asking for Crafted to be comperable/competitive with loot drops.

The fact that the devs are choosing 'the lazy way out' and nerfing the loot is their 2nd infraction here; the first was making shipwright comps so poor in comparison to start with.
Stop blaming the victims and place the blame where it is due.

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Thats a nerf by boosting the crafted stuff.. We want loot to be speciall and better on some parts.. period...

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Tell me, Arryth, why do you deserve to be special? Except for a few very rare cases, you can't loot usable, uber things in the ground game. Yet somehow the combat professions have managed to survive. If you deserve to be special then so do I as a Shipwright. Even so, I'm not sitting here saying that your loot needs to be nerfed down to the level of the ground game. I'm simply saying that you should NOT be able to loot something that is head and shoulders better than anything a Master Shipwright can make. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Put yourself in someone else's shoes for once and see that if you can loot something better than they, as the supposed Master of their profession, can create you immediately make their profession pointless.

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Space is not the ground game, it is completely different. We need special rewards and neat things for playing. Uber loot fits that nicely and make it so we are not dependant on shipwrights that have and will again gouge like crazy. Uberloot is a control on that gougeing. So is removal of pvp decay. Space is special, space is different. The job of my profession is not to care about you or your shoes.. its about enjoying space as much as posible with the smallest amount of annoyence. If ya cant get by selling what shipwrights are better at, maby those of you who are discontented should leave the profesion.

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Chiwawa wrote:

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Arryth wrote:

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Chiwawa wrote:

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Rowgue wrote:

Pilots are hoarding all the good loot it takes me too long to assemble enough parts.

I'm sorry but this argument does not fly, pilot takes no skill points and anyone can take pilot along with shipwright. If you want the parts go get them yourself. Before all of the loot nerfs it still took some time to gather up the needed loot to RE some good stuff, but it was actually feasible to make a business out of doing this. I know I was making good money doing it.

And before the outcry of "I don't have time to fly for hours to collect the loot, I have to manage my crafting business" is thrown around. Well I am also a shipwright and I find the time investment in the crafting side to be bery low in my opinion. I check swgcraft before I log on, if there are any good resources out there I go throw some harvesters down on them. I walk away and let my harvesters do the work for me. About once every week I make schematics for all of the powerups to put in my finished products and do factory runs on them. Whenever my vendors are low on inventory I go home and craft up some replacement parts to throw on the vendor. All of this makes up maybe 25% of my gaming time, and I only play for about 1-2 hours a night. That leaves me with 75% of my time to either do custom orders for people, go try to loot some good stuff in space for RE'ing, or whatever else I want to do.

If you really want to see some crafting with a timesink then try being a master doctor like I was before. Anybody that knows anything sells avian meat of any decent quality for at least 10-20 cpu. I was not willing to pay those outrageous prices, but instead of complaining about it I leveled up some combat and collected those things myself. And without the benefit of a second account I was limited in both my ability to fight and my ability to harvest said resources because most of my skill points were tied up in Doc and Medic and of course I had to have some artisan to be able to survey for the other resources I needed. As a shipwright I don't have to worry about insanely hard to get creature resources and therefore I spend much less time dedicated to doing the leg work to get to the point where I have enough resources to do anything with. Sure there are some specific resource types you need to harvest for the advanced stuff, but meds required those as well as the creature resources.

Honestly I have tried architect, doctor, weaponsmith, and now shipwright. I agree that the resource requirements are a little high, but this is by far the least painful crafting profession I have experienced thus far. And when you sell stuff based on a cpu basis, why in the world would you complain about how many resources it takes. If I make a ship that needs 70k resources for say 5cpu which is a lot less than most shipwrights would charge then I make 350k on the sale. Thats 280k profit, of course you have to figure in maint on harvesters and factories and vendors, but you are still making a decent profit on this ship.

And the "I have to buy my resources" argument does not fly with me either. I have five open lots that I use for harvesters, and if I find a good spot I can easily pull 100k of that resource every day they are running. The ships are really the only thing that require massive amounts of resources and lets be honest ships are not going to be flying off the shelves so fast that you need millions of resources every week to keep up with demand. You choose to buy your resources instead of harvest them yourself, for reasons of time, laziness, lack of knowledge about how to do it properly, or any other reason. If you have to buy the resources for 10cpu, you can't expect to pass that increased cost on to your customers without them getting rather irritated with you.

It's your choice to make that resource dealer a rich man by buying 100k units of steel at 10cpu. I can harvest that same 100k units for less than 0.5 cpu when you figure in the maint and power for the harvesters. That is the main thing that inflates the economy in this game. People pay 15cpu for uber resources then pass that cost along to the customer in the finished product. But as long as there are crafters around that are willing to do that work themselves as opposed to paying someone else to cut that part of the process out then you will always be hearing complaints about how you are overcharging for your goods. I chose not to pay those prices when I was a doctor, and thus was able to make my meds much cheaper than otherwise possible with purchasing resources. Granted I could not produce the mass quantities that some docs could because it did take time to gather all this stuff. But do you really need to gather enough resources to craft 20 of each ship chasis to stock your vendor with. I find that if I keep three of each chasis on my vendor then I almost always have at least one left when I am ready to restock. If ships are flying off your shelves so fast you can't keep up, then the additional cost of having to buy your resources will be negated by the sheer volume of your sales.

I think that most of the complaining about the amount of resources needed to run a shipwright business come from people that have just achieved master and want to instantly go out and buy enough resources to craft the stuff to fully stock a vendor overnight. Getting a business up and running requires some prep work, once you have it up and running the workload decreases exponentially.

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I disagree, I cannot possibly harvest what I need for crafting myself, and I have 15 lots available. I also do not sell chassis, so go figure.

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If you can't handle shipwright with 15 lots, your doing something wrong.. either selling too much or doing it all in an inefficient manner.. in either case.. its not my problem. Leave the loot alone. The only improvement I would consede to the shipwright are better engines (current are still to slow), and lower resourse requirements.

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Dont make me laugh, I am one of the most successful MSW on our server, i've seen your posts about costings on your server and im sorry you have to deal with that, but quit bringing your servers issues to all of us.

I can handle this profession as anyone that knows me will reaffirm, fact is 15 lots do not produce enough to keep up with my production levels.

Just as a side point, with all your moaning about costings, and wanting free stuff from to fall from the sky how much do/did you charge for a buff?

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I charge 10k for a buff, which are among the best on my server, if not the best. Ive been makeing meds on Naritus since june 2003. When im buffing.. If im not advertiseing, and dont want to be bothered your gonna pay much more dearly for it. I have not asked for any thing "free", learn to read. Loot is not free.. I have to fight to get it. I am alkso quite sure that my server is not the only one that was hit badly by gougeing shipwrights. If your production levels are too much to be handled by 15 lots, then get help or scale back.

10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.

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Rhysen wrote:

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Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.

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Unless you're going to say "Every Doctor should be a Master Ranger/Artisan" don't presume to tell people what professions they should be. I'm Ace Alliance pilot and in reaching Ace level, I had to neglect progression in Shipwright. There's only so many hours in a play session and hunting for cheap resources eats a lot of time. Along with crafting substantial amounts of stock.

Now you seem to be able to justify YOUR outrageous inflation of cpu when people question your prices for buffs. But when it comes to Shipwrights, we're greedy. I have a saying "With hypocrisy comes apathy".

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Amen to that, Im sick of reading this guys "all shipwrights are greedy" posts, especially after reading that. He even had the cheek to say that im doing something wrong cos I cant survive off 15 harvesters...go figure. Apperently, I should harvest all my own resources, and sell everything at 1cpu....Does'nt matter if I run outa stock, cos in our communist shipwright scenario, another comrade will pick up where I left off, exactly the same price and quality.

WOOT...now where do I get my Trabant???

"10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price."

So what you're saying is if the server I'm on charges 1 mil for master ships (an "established" price) then its ok for me to charge that much, or say 900k, for the ships? Wow, what a glaring hypocrisy.

Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 01-13-2005 11:59 AM

Better still get in your Trabant

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Arryth wrote:
10k is low for naritus and most servers. It is an established price. It is not based in any part on the actual quality of my resourses or my buffs.. If I charged on a bases of resourse cost my buffs would cost more like 15k each.
I hit 2650 per buff for 3 hours and 45 min on all stats (I make all packs identacle) Comparing doc crafting to ship crafting is just silly.. Doc crafting requires vastly more time. Especially because I gather ALL of my own resourses.
The avain I gathered my self would sell for 400 cpu or more on most servers (I gathored 250k of it). SO each buff is a cost of 3240 just in meat, about another 3000 for all the other resourses. so lets say 6500 so far cost per buff... the theirs food.. my total cost per buff/food dose is about 600 credits.. So 7,100 credits is my cost to deliver each buff.. and I make a profit of 2,900 of each one.. Thats not a big return considering the gigantic amount of time invested to get from resourses (eithor bought or gathered). That does not even count the harrassment, and abuse that we have to put up with, which is substantial, and It also assumes you SELL every buff you make.. My actually realized profit per buff is more like 2,000. So i make about a 20% profit. The 25% ive seen sighted by some shipwrights on this forum is alot better then my 20%, and for much less work... Dont think so? Go gather 20k of avian some time.... There are ample oppurtunities for a shipwright to make money in ways other then crafted parts sales... A big one Id like to see is re'd part sales. Get pilot... its free.. and gathor loot.. re it and sell it... the good stuff is worth alot. Plus you can subsadise your shipwright with space money. Every shipwright should also be a master pilot.. and a seasoned one at that... You must know the ins and outs of what ytou sell and their effects in space combat.

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Message Edited by EdOWar on 01-13-2005 11:21 AM

I am shipwright myself and I tell everyone i come across that they should use their loots to add on their starships, cause most of the time they are better balanced.

And if players want a RE, i provide FREE of charge.


I agree that the loots have to be (or had to be) nerfed, flting around and loot all ya can get (maybe that they ment with loot craziness ???)

And what about those Firespray disks ? I even got 1 from RE higher lvl loots, and I am not in a hurry to get the scematic. BTW a firespray shouldn't cost 17 mil to purchase, shipwrights are turning out to be the new armorsmiths, doctors and weaponsmiths. Loots of cash on them and for what ? (Just my thought .... )

Ok they spend millions on resources to grind, BUT where did they get those millions ? not from killing thugs....
I was/am armorsmith and i am happy with it, making composite for 100k for friends and have 60%+ base 80% kin. While others sell it for 250k (at least), even my ships (masters) cost just afraction of what they cost at someone else.
My price for firespray will be around 350k-500k (depending on the resources it needs).

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Rowgue wrote:

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Dont make me laugh, I am one of the most successful MSW on our server, i've seen your posts about costings on your server and im sorry you have to deal with that, but quit bringing your servers issues to all of us.

I can handle this profession as anyone that knows me will reaffirm, fact is 15 lots do not produce enough to keep up with my production levels.

Just as a side point, with all your moaning about costings, and wanting free stuff from to fall from the sky how much do/did you charge for a buff?

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Ok first of all I don't have any problem with any shipwright pricing their goods at whatever level they feel is appropriate. It was other shipwrights who hijacked the thread that brought this issue up, I was merely responding to them.

You say 15 lots can not keep up with your production levels. You are illustrating the point I made in one of my responses. I allow for the fact that you may not be able to harvest enough resources to keep up the kind of production you want. That is however your choice. Your the one that needs to have a huge business for whatever reason that may be. You can go buy your stuff if you want to be able to keep that up, and you can charge more for your products. I'm not judging here I'm just saying that not everyone needs to have a massive amount of products on 14 vendors at all times, and there is no promise either implicit or explicit that you will be able to do so. So to say that it is not plausible because 15 lots does not support the scale of business you feel you need to run proves absolutely nothing.

I will ignore the personal attack in your final comment and just respond to your question. I reiterate I never mentioned "costings" until shipwrights started bitching about how they have to charge so much because they have to buy tons of resources. I also never asked for free stuff to fall from the sky. If you bother to read the original post I was talking about how I used to make good money as a shipwright selling RE'd components, but now it takes me weeks to loot enough parts to put together a finished RE component. As for buffs I never really did buffs for money, as the starports were always flooded with 10 other docs spamming their stats and prices. As I do not believe in spamming for any reason, I quickly determined this was not my bag. I just used my doc skills to support myself and my friends when we went out hunting. I made a few bucks doing it as sometimes people would send me tells saying "I'll pay you 10k if you'll buff me" even though I was not looking to do so at the time. I made very little money as a doctor, I used my skills almost primarily to support me and my friends in battle, and I made my money from running missions.

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It was not an attack on your thread, sorry for any confusion

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Arryth wrote:

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Chiwawa wrote:

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Arryth wrote:

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Chiwawa wrote:

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Rowgue wrote:

Pilots are hoarding all the good loot it takes me too long to assemble enough parts.

I'm sorry but this argument does not fly, pilot takes no skill points and anyone can take pilot along with shipwright. If you want the parts go get them yourself. Before all of the loot nerfs it still took some time to gather up the needed loot to RE some good stuff, but it was actually feasible to make a business out of doing this. I know I was making good money doing it.

And before the outcry of "I don't have time to fly for hours to collect the loot, I have to manage my crafting business" is thrown around. Well I am also a shipwright and I find the time investment in the crafting side to be bery low in my opinion. I check swgcraft before I log on, if there are any good resources out there I go throw some harvesters down on them. I walk away and let my harvesters do the work for me. About once every week I make schematics for all of the powerups to put in my finished products and do factory runs on them. Whenever my vendors are low on inventory I go home and craft up some replacement parts to throw on the vendor. All of this makes up maybe 25% of my gaming time, and I only play for about 1-2 hours a night. That leaves me with 75% of my time to either do custom orders for people, go try to loot some good stuff in space for RE'ing, or whatever else I want to do.

If you really want to see some crafting with a timesink then try being a master doctor like I was before. Anybody that knows anything sells avian meat of any decent quality for at least 10-20 cpu. I was not willing to pay those outrageous prices, but instead of complaining about it I leveled up some combat and collected those things myself. And without the benefit of a second account I was limited in both my ability to fight and my ability to harvest said resources because most of my skill points were tied up in Doc and Medic and of course I had to have some artisan to be able to survey for the other resources I needed. As a shipwright I don't have to worry about insanely hard to get creature resources and therefore I spend much less time dedicated to doing the leg work to get to the point where I have enough resources to do anything with. Sure there are some specific resource types you need to harvest for the advanced stuff, but meds required those as well as the creature resources.

Honestly I have tried architect, doctor, weaponsmith, and now shipwright. I agree that the resource requirements are a little high, but this is by far the least painful crafting profession I have experienced thus far. And when you sell stuff based on a cpu basis, why in the world would you complain about how many resources it takes. If I make a ship that needs 70k resources for say 5cpu which is a lot less than most shipwrights would charge then I make 350k on the sale. Thats 280k profit, of course you have to figure in maint on harvesters and factories and vendors, but you are still making a decent profit on this ship.

And the "I have to buy my resources" argument does not fly with me either. I have five open lots that I use for harvesters, and if I find a good spot I can easily pull 100k of that resource every day they are running. The ships are really the only thing that require massive amounts of resources and lets be honest ships are not going to be flying off the shelves so fast that you need millions of resources every week to keep up with demand. You choose to buy your resources instead of harvest them yourself, for reasons of time, laziness, lack of knowledge about how to do it properly, or any other reason. If you have to buy the resources for 10cpu, you can't expect to pass that increased cost on to your customers without them getting rather irritated with you.

It's your choice to make that resource dealer a rich man by buying 100k units of steel at 10cpu. I can harvest that same 100k units for less than 0.5 cpu when you figure in the maint and power for the harvesters. That is the main thing that inflates the economy in this game. People pay 15cpu for uber resources then pass that cost along to the customer in the finished product. But as long as there are crafters around that are willing to do that work themselves as opposed to paying someone else to cut that part of the process out then you will always be hearing complaints about how you are overcharging for your goods. I chose not to pay those prices when I was a doctor, and thus was able to make my meds much cheaper than otherwise possible with purchasing resources. Granted I could not produce the mass quantities that some docs could because it did take time to gather all this stuff. But do you really need to gather enough resources to craft 20 of each ship chasis to stock your vendor with. I find that if I keep three of each chasis on my vendor then I almost always have at least one left when I am ready to restock. If ships are flying off your shelves so fast you can't keep up, then the additional cost of having to buy your resources will be negated by the sheer volume of your sales.

I think that most of the complaining about the amount of resources needed to run a shipwright business come from people that have just achieved master and want to instantly go out and buy enough resources to craft the stuff to fully stock a vendor overnight. Getting a business up and running requires some prep work, once you have it up and running the workload decreases exponentially.

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I disagree, I cannot possibly harvest what I need for crafting myself, and I have 15 lots available. I also do not sell chassis, so go figure.

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If you can't handle shipwright with 15 lots, your doing something wrong.. either selling too much or doing it all in an inefficient manner.. in either case.. its not my problem. Leave the loot alone. The only improvement I would consede to the shipwright are better engines (current are still to slow), and lower resourse requirements.

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Dont make me laugh, I am one of the most successful MSW on our server, i've seen your posts about costings on your server and im sorry you have to deal with that, but quit bringing your servers issues to all of us.

I can handle this profession as anyone that knows me will reaffirm, fact is 15 lots do not produce enough to keep up with my production levels.

Just as a side point, with all your moaning about costings, and wanting free stuff from to fall from the sky how much do/did you charge for a buff?

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I charge 10k for a buff, which are among the best on my server, if not the best. Ive been makeing meds on Naritus since june 2003. When im buffing.. If im not advertiseing, and dont want to be bothered your gonna pay much more dearly for it. I have not asked for any thing "free", learn to read. Loot is not free.. I have to fight to get it. I am alkso quite sure that my server is not the only one that was hit badly by gougeing shipwrights. If your production levels are too much to be handled by 15 lots, then get help or scale back.

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Wow 10k for what in resources? Why dont you harvest it all yourself...jezz whats that 13cpu?
Get a grip man and smell what your shoveling onto us

Message Edited by Chiwawa on 01-13-2005 09:18 AM