Shipwright Archive
Thread: Your 6k Kimogila
BadKarma777
Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:14 am
#53
Astev_Aris wrote:
It's not about providing ships at a reasonable price for them, it's about making as much profit as quickly as possible while the market is still hot, so don't spew your altruisticbull$hit here because it doesn't fly with me and a lot of others on this board. I've seen what happened to the Architects, I'll be damned if it happens to Shipwrights as well.
If this was intended for me, let me say that your hostility is unwarranted.
The point of stating that I was playing 'devil's advocate' was intended to indicate that I wasn't attacking anyone nor trying to infer any insidious motives.
If you want to argue points logically, then letting your emotions get the better of you isn't going to help the matter.
Thisis a discussion - not a flame war, and for the most part, it's managed to be a pretty civil discussion despite the fact that this is a current hotbutton issue. I find this rather refreshing as it is a rare thing on these boards and hope to be able to discuss such volatile issues with civility in the future as well.
Astev, you make a valid point, but my point is, why should customers pay the same price for a ship made with inferior resources as they would for one made with 'decent' or 'top quality' resources?
I'm sorry if the question offends you, but it is, after all, only a question.
In the end, I'm sure that many players will have to 'agree to disagree' on such topics and sincerely hope that we can all concede to that much.
To be honest, I personally don't really balk either way. When I see lower priced ships, I attribute this to low resource cost, probably brought about by low quality resources. That's fine - it's a 'grinder' in my book. When I have the money, I'll eventually buy a nicer, higher quality ship, but for the time being, I fly what I can afford.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, ease, up, I'm not throwing accusations either way. I'm just 'discussing' and have no alterior motive. 
Scythe
Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:15 am
#54
He says that real world analogies are useless, and yet his entire post bases itself around real world analogies. Maybe I missed something 
Rant about price slashing and its effects in the real world and SWG
Walmart is a disgusting conglomerate. I can't stand it, and no offense to the people who work there, the impersonal service that you receive. In time, the small mom -and-pop style stores that I personally love, who give dedicated service to their customers and as such retain them even in the shadow of the lower-priced market, will all board up their windows, and the only places to shop in this country, and soon many others, will be at a Wal-mart, or one of the now smaller similar stores. Since you're using this example, so will I. Walmart is the single most harmful factor on the US economy to date. They offer lower priced, slightly lower quality or same quality products, and force thousands upon thousands of businesses OUT of business. As such, your average american loses his livelihood, and has to work off less money. So now they HAVE to shop at lower priced alternatives, such as Wal-mart, which now opens more stores, threatens more businesses, and the trend continues. How does this hurt the economy? It's kinda simple. Those in corporate America (and I apologize for non-Americans reading this, I live in the US and as such it is my only personal reference) such as those on the board of directors of Walmart, Home Depot/Lowes, the large Supermarket conglomerates and others, as well as those in the trade of dealing with their money will continue to get richer and richer. At the same time, they devalue the overall cost of living in this country, which on paper seems good, lower cost means people can buy more with less. Ach, but the problem there is that they have less to spend. So your average American has less and less to work with, while products stay in an approximate ratio to the average income. But the wealthy upper class has more and more to spend, on goods that are less and less cost, so they only stand to gain even more.
End lesson in macroeconomics. What the heck did I just type all that for? Quite simply because the exact same thing is occurring in SWG. There are those who are sitting on literally billions of credits, those who have no desire than to make more. They have cross-server lot trades to obtain the resources that your regular "mom-and-pop" style shop can't compete with. They're the ones who sell foods for hundreds of CPU, armor at the same price, and the people have to scrounge every penny just to buy what they feel they need to hunt and survive, and just get wealthier and wealthier while the average joe is still at the bottom of the food chain with no chance to rise up.
What does this have to do with the shipwright discussion? Your average player does not have the ability to operate at a low profit margin, such as created when most have to purchase resources from vendors to craft their starships. This will create a shipwright monopoly among those who already have a ridiculous amount of money and can afford to operate at a lower margin, or even a loss, to drive others out of business. The blatantly rich are the Wal-marts of SWG, they cut prices below or near cost such that the other businesses are forced out of business, the market is devalued, but they're even richer for it.
Rant about quality of ships
And for the record, I'm a 6'8" 255lb irishman. I don't fit in a Ford Focus, outside of the fetal position, but the design ideas put into the Benz allow me to stretch almost to my full length. Personally I drive a Grand Marquis, and this "higher mass" vehicle has more room for my 4.6L engine, faster than the 2.1L in the Focus, my PrecisionTrac traction control system, which even on a rear-wheel drive vehicle holds the road better than any FWD car I"ve ever seen, the Bose stereo system over the factory standard, the front 8-way adjustable bench seat, which allows for more versatility in the vehicle than the twin buckets with center console that the Focus features, not to mention that the seats can be adjusted to lie completely flat and connect with the rear seat to provide a full-length sleeping surface. Did I pay more for it than the Focus? You betcha...granted not by much, but being able to have the higher mass engine, the higher mass traction control and ABS system, the higher mass stereo and the higher mass seating arraingement in my opinion makes up for me having to save my pennies when it comes to the decision to eat out or eat in.
Edited to clarify...
Message Edited by Scythe on 11-19-2004 03:21 PM
u962281
Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:23 am
#55
Seems someone was correct in stating that this is the most overused topic in this forum, but a couple ideas beg mentioning:
1. The base theory for any capitalist economic theory is supply and demand. Therefore: new profession in a period of boredom means lots and lots of people grinding through Shipwright. Chassis is the quickest way to do this. Since the resource drain is huge, no one is using practice mode for the small xp bonus. Result? Tons and tons of chassis'. Economic consequences: lowered chassis prices.
This is compounded by the fact that a significant number of Shipwrights are "alt's", and bankrolled by a rich armorsmith, doc, what have you, so the economic incentive while they rake in creditswith their original businessto turn any sort of profit is non-existent.
2. The other economic theory here that deserves passing mention is that perhaps some sell cheaply for the purposes of being a "loss leader". This entails selling at a net loss for the purposes of establishing a market share. (In reality, driving others out of business, although IRL, for purposes of anti-trust, that cannot be your stated intention). Since I think mentioning name brands is against forum rules, think Real Big Software Company and Real Big Sell Everything Retail Chain, and their effect on others in the same line of business.
Bottom line is that the SWG economy, while virtual, has similarities to real life ecomomies. Yes, cross server lot trades put small operators at a disadvantage, but it does this in the same way as a crafter with aboatload of lots from his guild full of hunters. The number of forces at play in even this virtual economy are large, and market forces will always even out commodity pricing by and large in the end.
To call someone a "stupid griefer" for their chosen pricing scheme is not just rude, it seems to reflect a lack of understanding of the forces involved. Maybe his shop is out in BFE Tatooine, and yours is near Cnet or the MOP and sells quicker. Should he price as high as yours and keep the "moral pricing high ground" while he goes back once a month to his vendor to put the items back up for sale after they expire?
Scythe
Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:25 am
#56
See that? An Imp and a Rebel responding in similar terms at almost the same time. Either the end of the world is coming, or we're onto something :-p
moody628
Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:05 pm
#57
BadKarma777 wrote:
You raise a valid point here, but allow me to play 'Devil's advocate' for a moment.
If these ships are 'cr@p' with low mass and whatnot - how is it not gouging a customer to turn it around at a higher price point? Perhaps the ship was being sold low for a reason?
I don't know - it doesn't carry 'straight' across, but it's reminiscent of used car 'lemon lots'.
Well, there's "selling low" and there's "not covering your nut".
Any time I can buy your ship for less than I can buy the resources to make it myself, I'm going to. That's basic economics, RL or otherwise.
If there's a player out there who TRULY feels that shipwrights are gouging, I challenge them to put their money where their mouth is. If those players would get out of crafting/merchant business and just run resource business, I guarantee my prices would come down. If I could consistently buy grinding quality resources at 1cpu and good stuff at 2cpu and phenomenal stuff at 3 or 4 cpu, I wouldn't harvest, and my prices would drop like a rock.
Spinnthrift
Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:12 am
#58
moody628 wrote:
I love buying a Tier2 ship for 6k and turning right around and selling it for 250k within 48 hours. And that's my grinding price. My "I took time and care to craft this with the best resources possible" priceis 384k for that ship... but nobody's calling for that yet.
Even better was the 6k Ixiyen that went for 500k, but I've only caught one of those on the bazaar so far.
The nice thing about this is that it greatly reduces the time and resources I have to spend on my basic chassis stock, freeing me up for missile packs and weapons systems that are flying out the door like hotcakes.
I wouldn't have done the same thing. Jeez, I'd have tried giving it to some newbie or something. Space is expensive enough without people like you killing handmedowns. No more ships on the bazaar from me then.
Little-Green-Guy
Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:14 pm
#59
moody628 wrote:
BadKarma777 wrote:
You raise a valid point here, but allow me to play 'Devil's advocate' for a moment.
If these ships are 'cr@p' with low mass and whatnot - how is it not gouging a customer to turn it around at a higher price point? Perhaps the ship was being sold low for a reason?
I don't know - it doesn't carry 'straight' across, but it's reminiscent of used car 'lemon lots'.
Well, there's "selling low" and there's "not covering your nut".
Any time I can buy your ship for less than I can buy the resources to make it myself, I'm going to. That's basic economics, RL or otherwise.
If there's a player out there who TRULY feels that shipwrights are gouging, I challenge them to put their money where their mouth is. If those players would get out of crafting/merchant business and just run resource business, I guarantee my prices would come down. If I could consistently buy grinding quality resources at 1cpu and good stuff at 2cpu and phenomenal stuff at 3 or 4 cpu, I wouldn't harvest, and my prices would drop like a rock.
I 'did' run and still 'do' run a resource business. believe, me it not any cheaper for me.rather, more expensvie.Our corp. brings in upwards of 35 million units of resources per week.
neutrineaux
Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:05 pm
#60
This is all fascinating to me. I have a business IRL, and, unfortunately, not a business education. So I will say that I have learned a lot reading this and other similar posts.
But is not the fair market value of an item the price at which a knowledgeable seller will sell to a knowledgeable buyer?
I cannot build stuff as fast as my vendor sells out, and I charge over 10 cpu for everything but chassis. So by all real life measures, I have under priced for the current demand. I charge 3 cpu for entry level chassis as a gesture of good will to newbies, and realizing that this is more than they can find them for elsewhere. But I sell several each week, none-the-less. I sell t1-4 chassis for 6 cpu, which is 1 cpu more than I can buy most of the resources for. I feel that it is silly for me to sell a product for less than the cost of its components. Master chassis are 10 cpu, mainly because I can get that much or more for components, and it would exhaust my resources too quickly if I sold very many of these.
I do mine as many resources as I can with the help of a few friends, but no cross server action. I still run out of steel every day. I buy what I can find at reasonable prices, but some good stuff goes for 20+ cpu!
But I do not berate the low cost vendors. I started out with barely enough credits to make master, and I am making money now. But if they are able and want to sell cheap, that is cool, too. As long as my stuff is selling, there is enough business to go around. They are not stupid, any more than the rest of us. But rather motivated by a different end point, or percieving their costs from a different perspective. Or maybe not motivated by profit at all. Or satisfied with a lower return on investment, perhaps.
But I must also say that I bought a Dunelizard off the bazaar for 6k, and immediately added it to my vendor stock at 6 cpu: saved me using my limited resources to build one. But it is not gouging, but rather a good investment. Hopefully, the seller was happy to get his 6k. And I will do it again in a heartbeat. Cash poor pilots would be smart to surf the bazaar, too. But many do not. And it is OK to make a profit due to their oversight.
People, give up your socialist world view! Profit is OK, and it is healthy. Do not let people anger you by saying you are gouging. Likewise, you low price vendors should not be swayed by those bent on higher returns on investment. If you want to help out the poor pilots, or just enjoy crafting ships an don't need more credits, as long as you are having fun, you are doing the right thing for you.
neut
Mejowepra
Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:41 pm
#61
Little-Green-Guy wrote:In addition...the lower the prices you guys put on your goods...the more and more...Shipwright is looking like the Architect proffesion. You know ..how they pretty much have to pay people to buy their goods..by lowering the price so much that the RAW RESOURCES sell for more credits than their final product.you all should reall think about what it is your doing before, deciding on selling items for 1/2 of a credit per unit. That my friends, ruins professions.
I started ARCH earlier this year. I priced my products at 3-4 CPU. After I made 40 millions in sales, I got tired and went back to being a doctor.
"arch can't make money" is a lame myth. I made tons of money selling primarily heavy harvesters. I never looked at furniture which would be higher CPU because it didn't interest me.
Raw resource pricing is out of line often. Look at power for an extreme example - sells for 1-3 cpu when it costs 0.002 cpu to dig up.
Needless to say, selling cheap and still making a profit is perfectly valid. If you can't handle it, fine. Don't complain at those that can.
Little-Green-Guy
Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:23 pm
#62
Mejowepra wrote:
Little-Green-Guy wrote:
In addition...the lower the prices you guys put on your goods...the more and more...Shipwright is looking like the Architect proffesion. You know ..how they pretty much have to pay people to buy their goods..by lowering the price so much that the RAW RESOURCES sell for more credits than their final product.
you all should reall think about what it is your doing before, deciding on selling items for 1/2 of a credit per unit. That my friends, ruins professions.
I started ARCH earlier this year. I priced my products at 3-4 CPU. After I made 40 millions in sales, I got tired and went back to being a doctor.
"arch can't make money" is a lame myth. I made tons of money selling primarily heavy harvesters. I never looked at furniture which would be higher CPU because it didn't interest me.
Raw resource pricing is out of line often. Look at power for an extreme example - sells for 1-3 cpu when it costs 0.002 cpu to dig up.
Needless to say, selling cheap and still making a profit is perfectly valid. If you can't handle it, fine. Don't complain at those that can.
guys here is the point....we can sell resources @ 3cpu and 4cpu...so why invest the time (slaving away..crafting & clicking). Do we understand the concept of 'opportunity costs'?
Scythe
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:14 pm
#63
My last thought on this one...when you look at your mail day by day and see an assorted list of people, but no one more than twice, you know that you have a low price that people only go to because they need one thing now, and you happened to be the closest shop with a cheap price. When you see the same person buy their Y-wing, LP, X-wing, A-wing and contact you for a B-wing and Nova, as well as buying all the component parts, then you see more people's names just like that, and you realize you have 3-4 guilds buying a ton of stuff from you, and you keep up with their special orders, you know that you have not necessarily a fantastic price, but good quality, good price and good service.
I don't like being called a service profession, but a smile and a hearty greeting, fast prompt delivery of special orders, and a courteous /bye and take care when they leave earns you a lot more credits than lower prices.
bhzeus
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:40 pm
#64
A successful business requires two of three things: service, delivery, and product. Lets say you go with service and delivery. You sell your good less expensive then others(keeps costomers coming back), and produce them fastand in a quality spot (i.e. near coronet), but you sacrifice the higher quality product that other more expensive places have. If you trade service for product, you will turn a higher profit, but may not keep your costomers as happy. This is just my two bits on the s/w business from my expirience in-game and running a business in real life.
rols_cerentz
Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:06 am
#65
Little-Green-Guy wrote:You are missing the point. These people are selling their products for EXACTLY , the amoumt, the RAW RESOURCES would sell at.
they are NOT jacking up prices..
instead, you "low ballers (and yes, its your right to do so) are selling your good so inexpensively, your not even breaking even on your sales.
In the REAL WORLD business like that..don't stay around long...they go bankrupt.
think about it.
The 'low-ballers' that I have read about in this thread are actually making a profit, not a huge one, but they are making a profit. Yes, that actually does work in the real world. If it didn't, then Wal-Mart would have been out of business a VERY long time ago.
The mark-up on most of the products they sell is insignificant. Retail chains the world over have some of lowest profit margins of any business. The worst part of any 'general retail' business would be the sale of software. The mark-up on most software titles is so low, often little more then 2 to 5 dollars, that selling software is simply used as a loss-leader to get people into a store in order to entice them to buy some doo-dad that has a higher profit margin.