Shipwright Archive

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CapnKate wrote:

the key, here, is a key to business. the aim of the business, of any business, is to make the customer value your products and services MORE then they value the credits they pay for it.

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The whole problem with this post is that it is a typical tail wagging the dog argument that is blamed for architects having downward price pressure. As if somehow architects were to blame. Problem is that this argument hold absolutely no validity.

Prices are set by the market, not collusion, or lack thereof.

Architects prices collapsed for one reason, their market saturated. When you have X architects producing Y goods and those goods never decay, never wear out, never delete you get what is called market saturation. That is there are more goods to be sold than buyers to buy them.

When you have oversupply you have a decline in prices.

Compare this to weaponsmiths. They sell for 40, 50, 100 CPU and more. Why? Their products are in constant demand. You can buy a T21 today and a week from now you will likely need another. So you purchase another, maybe from the same WS, maybe not, but the product is sold, again and again and again. This renewable market is what sustains the successful crafting profession, whether they are WS, AS, Chefs or Docs.

In contrast the "have not" professions like architect, DE and tailor have no effective decay. As a result demand is low and prices fall due to a market that cannot absorb their products.

This is why I spent so much time posting on the need for decay in ships in beta. Without decay there is no market renewal, no renewal the market is saturated, market saturation means prices plummet.

The architects did not "ruin" their economy. That is hogwash. Their economy was ruined by the fact that people only need so many deeds and furniture. After they get their fill they never need to buy any more. Heck even candles and lights never did end up actually wearing out as long as you never pick them up again.

It would be like if you could buy a razor blade today that would last for 100 years. It would be just as sharp on the first day as on a day 97 years later. How successful do you think the disposable razor industry would be if there was an everlasting razor? Did you ever wonder why they call it a disposable razor? You are meant to throw it away, why? So you buy a new one. All the manufacturer has to do is make it just durable enough that you are not annoyed that it goes dull too quickly. Once that is accomplished they are happy to sell you more razors again and again.

Market renewal is the difference between a sustainable crafting profession and a doomed one. It looks like shipwright got some decay, time will tell if it is set correctly.

However no "collusion" is going to save or doom shipwright. What will save or doom the shipwright is if the developers decide to try to make water not wet and not ensure a renewable market for the majority of shipwright products through effective decay mechanisms.

If the shipwright market fails the blame will not lay with the shipwrights.

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Betatoxin wrote:
The whole problem with this post is that it is a typical tail wagging the dog argument that is blamed for architects having downward price pressure. As if somehow architects were to blame. Problem is that this argument hold absolutely no validity.

Prices are set by the market, not collusion, or lack thereof.

Architects prices collapsed for one reason, their market saturated. When you have X architects producing Y goods and those goods never decay, never wear out, never delete you get what is called market saturation. That is there are more goods to be sold than buyers to buy them.

When you have oversupply you have a decline in prices.

Compare this to weaponsmiths. They sell for 40, 50, 100 CPU and more. Why? Their products are in constant demand. You can buy a T21 today and a week from now you will likely need another. So you purchase another, maybe from the same WS, maybe not, but the product is sold, again and again and again. This renewable market is what sustains the successful crafting profession, whether they are WS, AS, Chefs or Docs.

In contrast the "have not" professions like architect, DE and tailor have no effective decay. As a result demand is low and prices fall due to a market that cannot absorb their products.

This is why I spent so much time posting on the need for decay in ships in beta. Without decay there is no market renewal, no renewal the market is saturated, market saturation means prices plummet.

The architects did not "ruin" their economy. That is hogwash. Their economy was ruined by the fact that people only need so many deeds and furniture. After they get their fill they never need to buy any more. Heck even candles and lights never did end up actually wearing out as long as you never pick them up again.

It would be like if you could buy a razor blade today that would last for 100 years. It would be just as sharp on the first day as on a day 97 years later. How successful do you think the disposable razor industry would be if there was an everlasting razor? Did you ever wonder why they call it a disposable razor? You are meant to throw it away, why? So you buy a new one. All the manufacturer has to do is make it just durable enough that you are not annoyed that it goes dull too quickly. Once that is accomplished they are happy to sell you more razors again and again.

Market renewal is the difference between a sustainable crafting profession and a doomed one. It looks like shipwright got some decay, time will tell if it is set correctly.

However no "collusion" is going to save or doom shipwright. What will save or doom the shipwright is if the developers decide to try to make water not wet and not ensure a renewable market for the majority of shipwright products through effective decay mechanisms.

If the shipwright market fails the blame will not lay with the shipwrights.

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I am sorry but I was there from the beginning. I see your register date and can see you were too. But I guess you missed all the threads in the early days from Arches begging other Arches to not sell small houses for 2k and PA Halls for 30k. That is what killed the market quicker then anything. And yes with prices so cheap it did saturate the market. One caused the other. The cheaper prices caused everything to become too numerous. If prices had been more stable there would not have been such an influx of property and such.

Something we are doing right now with ships. The only thing in our favor is that ships decay. But when its time for a player to get a new ship will he go buy another interceptor for 60K from the same guy he got the first one from or will he go to the guy shouting in coronet that he is selling a ship for 5k times the tier level? We can still kill our profession even with decay just by allowing this sort of thing.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I think one of the big problems is the mining versus buying resources. So far I havent seen many resources go above the 10cpu price. And mining is what? .2 cpu average? So you have two completely different overheads.

So lets say you make a chassis that is 100k in resources. A person that pays 10cpu for all his reources wont make any money unless he sells it at 11cpu or more. And a person that mines it can sell it for .3 cpu and still make a profit. So 1.1 million for a chassis versus 30k for a chassis? No contest. The miner wins.

Not all shipwrights can compete with this. With my guild we do both mining and buying. I couldnt set an actual price per unit because I really dont know the just of it all. I just craft I dont mine or buy.

But one more problem I just realized is even we all came up with an unwritten price rule, the guy that mines is still gonna make out like a bandit while the guy buying his resources is short changed. I dont see any easy way to deal with it. Maybe it would be better to let things settle down and see where we stand in two weeks before we start talking about this.

Tyranus

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I agree with that, hopefully things will settle and I would be happy to meet with you and try to get the other shipwrights on Kauri to at least meet to talk about the state of the profession. I was a little bummed to see Firespray chassis on our trade forum going for 6M buyout, I thought that was too cheap. However that was just my opinion, I bought one and somebody else bought the other. I can't figure how an AV-21 can bring about 2 Million and a Firespray only 6 million?

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czarnp wrote:

I agree with that, hopefully things will settle and I would be happy to meet with you and try to get the other shipwrights on Kauri to at least meet to talk about the state of the profession. I was a little bummed to see Firespray chassis on our trade forum going for 6M buyout, I thought that was too cheap. However that was just my opinion, I bought one and somebody else bought the other. I can't figure how an AV-21 can bring about 2 Million and a Firespray only 6 million?

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Yah that surprises me too. I see a suit of RIS going for 30+ million and a Firespray is worth only 6? Something very wrong with oureconomy.

But we have no one to blameexcept ourselves. I was one of the idiots standing in Coronet selling holos for 5 million a piece. I didnt help matters for sure.

Maybe in a few weeks we can sort something out. Just need to let the rush die out.

Tyranus

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PetaByte32 wrote:

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Marzuk147 wrote:
Some were saying expect even a low level ship to run 500k, but I said a long time ago this would be pretty much like archetect, and that the grinding to reach MSW by TONS of people was going to absolutely flood the economy with chassis, causing a HUGE supply with little demand. This means little profit because you can always go to the next cheaper guy.

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Hopefully after the rush is done (another week or two I suspect, the demand will drop so much that the candy losers killing the pricing wont even be able to sell anything and go find some other profession to destroy. Then only the set up shipwrights with enough patience to wait out the downturn will be the only ones to survive.

But that is just my opinion. I still think we need to set some of price range or price calc so we dont kill off this profession afterwards.

Tyranus

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Tyranus being a fellow shipwright on Kauri I totally understand where you are coming from. For the peopel saying I charge less b/c Im so low if you have descent resources in your chasis and charge bare minimum 5-6cpu per unit you would still sale and make a heck of alot more. I myself did not have any resources stacked up when expaansion was released I actually started a new toon so I could have the Sulstan race. Yes I have another acct all he did was set up extractors for me and so did a fellow weaponsmith.

So all I am saying is u do not have to be rich to master shipwright, I am currently 4-4-4-4 and just waiting on extractors to be able to master it. Also, the key to ANY business is to treat your customers with respect and dignity as you would want to be treated and they will usually not complain. Also like fellow said above, if your time and patience is worth your customers to TRY to give them the best you can then you will be a good crafter, if not then you will be a broke or gouging crafter. I personally dislike all the prices flowing around becasue they are assanine, I have a ship at 480k and someone else has at 60k I am like whatever. So we realy need some kind of doctrine that would say you can sell at this medium point for this ship and based on stats you can go up to this point or down to another. However this will never happen, also it would HEAVILY make the economy a normal REAL LIFE economy based ordeal. Yes there are many game companies in the world which is competition like we ship wrights are, well game co. A sells games at $50.00, and game co. B sells at $40.00 is that price gouging, no not at all still in the same vacinity. The only difference is they have different games they are selling, well we are the same way b/c my weapon may be different then Tyranus, I use him since were on the same server. So if we want to become a good profession like we all seeem to want then yes we have to take it upon ourselves as a community to implement something since nothing is in game, however I do not think that EVERYONE ON ALL SERVERS could agree upon the same thing.

Just my thoughst here!

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I am sorry but I was there from the beginning. I see your register date and can see you were too. But I guess you missed all the threads in the early days from Arches begging other Arches to not sell small houses for 2k and PA Halls for 30k. That is what killed the market quicker then anything. And yes with prices so cheap it did saturate the market. One caused the other. The cheaper prices caused everything to become too numerous. If prices had been more stable there would not have been such an influx of property and such.

Something we are doing right now with ships. The only thing in our favor is that ships decay. But when its time for a player to get a new ship will he go buy another interceptor for 60K from the same guy he got the first one from or will he go to the guy shouting in coronet that he is selling a ship for 5k times the tier level? We can still kill our profession even with decay just by allowing this sort of thing.

Tyranus

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I don't think you read what Betatoxin is getting at. I purchased one Medium Naboo House almost a year ago. I still have the same Medium Naboo House, now sitting in my backpack as a deed, because I have moved to Naboo. I have Medium Harvesters that I have had in service for over 6 months and I intend to keep them in service until such a time as the Devs provide better harvesters. I never have to buy Medium Harvesters again.

The market to sell medium harvesters to me is entirely saturated. No Architect can sell me a medium harvester, at any price.

The thing with architects have such problems is that once they sell a product, they likely won't ever be selling that product to that player again.

Most people don't move their home from one planet to another, it can take more then a few hours of switching items back and forth all over the place. Where I am now, I will be staying. If I do unlock a new character, those extra lots will only be used for Harvesters, which will be bought once and kept for good.

With Starship Chassis, there is a small amount of Decay that can't be stopped. So, there does come a point when you simply would rather not be using Level 7 armor that now has less available armor hit points then level 1 armor. Unfortunately, with the chassis itself, it doesn't matter how much or how little hit points are left on it, the ship acts exactly the same, until all of your armor is gone, which by that point you are already messed up enough that you won't be around for much longer.

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New Republic Order - Lowca

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rols_cerentz wrote:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I am sorry but I was there from the beginning. I see your register date and can see you were too. But I guess you missed all the threads in the early days from Arches begging other Arches to not sell small houses for 2k and PA Halls for 30k. That is what killed the market quicker then anything. And yes with prices so cheap it did saturate the market. One caused the other. The cheaper prices caused everything to become too numerous. If prices had been more stable there would not have been such an influx of property and such.

Something we are doing right now with ships. The only thing in our favor is that ships decay. But when its time for a player to get a new ship will he go buy another interceptor for 60K from the same guy he got the first one from or will he go to the guy shouting in coronet that he is selling a ship for 5k times the tier level? We can still kill our profession even with decay just by allowing this sort of thing.

Tyranus

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I don't think you read what Betatoxin is getting at. I purchased one Medium Naboo House almost a year ago. I still have the same Medium Naboo House, now sitting in my backpack as a deed, because I have moved to Naboo. I have Medium Harvesters that I have had in service for over 6 months and I intend to keep them in service until such a time as the Devs provide better harvesters. I never have to buy Medium Harvesters again.

The market to sell medium harvesters to me is entirely saturated. No Architect can sell me a medium harvester, at any price.

The thing with architects have such problems is that once they sell a product, they likely won't ever be selling that product to that player again.

Most people don't move their home from one planet to another, it can take more then a few hours of switching items back and forth all over the place. Where I am now, I will be staying. If I do unlock a new character, those extra lots will only be used for Harvesters, which will be bought once and kept for good.

With Starship Chassis, there is a small amount of Decay that can't be stopped. So, there does come a point when you simply would rather not be using Level 7 armor that now has less available armor hit points then level 1 armor. Unfortunately, with the chassis itself, it doesn't matter how much or how little hit points are left on it, the ship acts exactly the same, until all of your armor is gone, which by that point you are already messed up enough that you won't be around for much longer.

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I know exactly what they are saying. But I guess you or them dont get what I am saying. Yes there was a saturation in the game of houses and so on. But what made it happen was not that the houses and such dont decay. It is because of the very low prices that happened early on.

You got the same house and harvs for months? Go outside almost any town. Look how many houses there are out there. Look at how many of them are from players who dont play the game anymore. That is where a large chunk of your saturation went. Now go to any starting city and stand in front of a starport for 1 hour during peak times. I have seen up to 10 new players showing up. Thats 10 new houses, 100 new harvs, and thousands of furniture and so on possible.

But this isnt an argument about houses and architects. Basically even with the decay we can still weave our faces into the pavement quite easily. And guys out there selling full interceptors for 5k including parts is a dang good start in that direction.

Tyranus

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Val_Hunter wrote:
You two are disagreeing over why architects prices are all messed up, but you're both right.

1) The market died early because people were focusing on getting experience and selling at ridiculous prices. (It had a small comback with experimentable harvesters)

2) It has remained dead because you don't need to replace the stuff you buy from architects.

Shipwrights are currently suffering from the first one. I don't know if the second one applies. Do ship chassis get damaged and needs replaced at all or at any speed?

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That all depends upon who is piloting the starship. If you aren't a decent pilot or take considerable risks, then you might be replacing your chassis from time to time. If you are a good pilot and or take little risks, then you can go for a significant amount of time without getting your ship blown out from under you.

You two are disagreeing over why architects prices are all messed up, but you're both right.

1) The market died early because people were focusing on getting experience and selling at ridiculous prices. (It had a small comback with experimentable harvesters)

2) It has remained dead because you don't need to replace the stuff you buy from architects.

Shipwrights are currently suffering from the first one. I don't know if the second one applies. Do ship chassis get damaged and needs replaced at all or at any speed?

That's a really interesting thread.

I'd like to know whether shipwrights did this already:

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PetaByte32 wrote:

I was told by a weaponsmith friend, that is exactly what they did. They all got together, after seeing architect get bottomed out, and agreed on a minimum and maximum so the profession would not become a waste.

If yes, what was the outcome? Otherwise I'd really like to attend such a meeting.