Shipwright Archive
Thread: A suggestion for rebalancing craftable engine mass and P/R/Y
CPark wrote:
Eaca -- could you give an example using engines so we could see exactly what your proposal would mean?
"Make all crafted stats 85% of what you could achieve on an average RE"
Right now, the average of Pitch for a looted class three engine is about 47.5. REed that would make it about 48.5 -- the "average RE". 85% of that would be about 41. Do you mean that the best crafted level three engine could only have 41 as the best possible pitch?
There's an obvious problem with odd level components... We'll use engines as an example here. Since L9 loot and crafted have... crappy at best YPR stats, we'll use L8 stats as an example for crafting instead. Assume an RE'd L8 has a YPR of 72 and a speed of 90 (this would be an example of a good L8 engine made with items I've recently looted, since the engine nerf). An equivalent level crafted engine, lets say L9, would have a base YPR of 72 * .85 or about 61.2. This would be an example of a starting point for YPR values, you could dump all of your exp points into say Yaw and get it up to high 60's maybe low 70's at the expense of all other values. That would be ballanced. Speed would start around 76, lets say these stats are without upgrades.
"(where most loot will only have 1 or 2 stats that are at most 10% better than crafted, the rest of the stats would be below crafted"
This confused me -- 10% better? or 15% better (100-85) like above?
Or do you mean that every time the game generates a stat there is a 15% chance that it will be between 1% and 10% better than the best crafted stat?
That would mean that if the best looted and REd Pitch for a level three engine was, say, 58 then the best crafted engine would be about 49 and one out of every 6 or seven looted engines, when RE'd, would have a pitch greater than 49.
Arryth wrote:
You should not be able to compete on all parts.. Uber loot is FUN.. Think of it as engines being designed by huge conglomerate coperations with TEAMS of shipwrights working on them, makeing superior product. No lone tradesmen could generally compete with that.
Arryth, I would agree with you if we did not have a shipwright profession. But if we do have a shipwright profession it needs to have some meaning. In this case, I believe that ends up meaning that shipwrights can produce products pilots will really want to buy.
In the discussion so far I don't think anyone has talked about nurfing loot -- only about adjusting player crafted items to be competitive. A pilot that never wanted to buy equipment from a shipwright could still do it and depend only on loot drops. The only time they would have to use a shipwright would be expendibles and chassis.
Kalano wrote:
Arryth wrote:
They do make things pilots want... Missiles, weapons, shields, boosters and armor are for the most part better, or at least more customisable for shipwrights. Often crafted reacters are better also. We should not be foreced to come to shipwrights for every thing. Looting good shipparts is a great part of the fun for pilots, and must out way the discontent of shipwrights about it.. they have to go with the numbers.. The truth is.. jtls could work with out crafters..albet they would have to make changes, but it cannot work with out pilots.Why don't we just remove all the crafters from the game, make everything loot drop, so we can be exaclty like ever mmorg out there. Can we say EQ?
Crafters were put in the game to make a player economy. You remove the SW, like you want, you the now no longer have a player economy, you have a controlled economy like the other mmorgs.
No where are you forced to go to a SW. You can get all the loot you want in space. All i seen you state is that you want to have uber parts and not have to go to another player for anyone of it. This game is ment for player interaction. If you don't want any interaction like i feel you do, then go to a different game.
They put SW in the game, and it is not going to leave. Quit undermining us. Many of us SW are pilots are selves. We chose SW because we love crafting and making a business, well, a majority of us. If the prices are too high, demand a reduction in required resources and stop shopping at the high price dealers. You are not force into anything you don't want. Stop acting like someone has a gun to your back and telling you what to do. If you hate it, then pick up a StarWars flight sim and be happy then.
I get pleanty of player interaction in space, thank you. I just do not wish to be extorted even one more little bit. Things are fine as it, except resourse requirements. Any other changes are not exceptable to the pilots.
Kalano wrote:
Arryth wrote:
They do make things pilots want... Missiles, weapons, shields, boosters and armor are for the most part better, or at least more customisable for shipwrights. Often crafted reacters are better also. We should not be foreced to come to shipwrights for every thing. Looting good shipparts is a great part of the fun for pilots, and must out way the discontent of shipwrights about it.. they have to go with the numbers.. The truth is.. jtls could work with out crafters..albet they would have to make changes, but it cannot work with out pilots.Why don't we just remove all the crafters from the game, make everything loot drop, so we can be exaclty like ever mmorg out there. Can we say EQ?
Crafters were put in the game to make a player economy. You remove the SW, like you want, you the now no longer have a player economy, you have a controlled economy like the other mmorgs.
No where are you forced to go to a SW. You can get all the loot you want in space. All i seen you state is that you want to have uber parts and not have to go to another player for anyone of it. This game is ment for player interaction. If you don't want any interaction like i feel you do, then go to a different game.
They put SW in the game, and it is not going to leave. Quit undermining us. Many of us SW are pilots are selves. We chose SW because we love crafting and making a business, well, a majority of us. If the prices are too high, demand a reduction in required resources and stop shopping at the high price dealers. You are not force into anything you don't want. Stop acting like someone has a gun to your back and telling you what to do. If you hate it, then pick up a StarWars flight sim and be happy then.
And I would not even have to post on this if certain people would not ask for loot nerfing, and leave well enough alone.
Here are my counts of drops by level for engines --
L - N
01 - 24
02 - 18
03 - 19
04 - 12
05 - 17
06 - 36
07 - 02
08 - 06
09 - 01
10 - 00
This is from my getting to 4444 privateer.
It looks like around 20 items of each kind during the process up to level 6.
What is your experience?
CPark wrote:
Eaca...
Thanks for getting back with the example. Here's what I heard:
The Base of a crafted item stat would be 85% of the Average of the looted item stat.
The Max of crafted item stat would be 90% of the Max of the looted item stat.
The Chance of getting a looted item stat greater than the Max of a crafted item would be 25% (that would get you 2 stats greater than crafted items for an 8-stat item)
I have one comment and one concern.
The comment is that we would have to compare the levels that players have access to when we set the base values. So Novice Pilots would match to level 1, Tier one pilots would match to levels 2 and 3, Tier two to levels 4 and 5, Tier three to levels 6 and 7, Tier 4 is skipped for comparison purposes and Master compares to levels 8,9, and 10. Using that scheme...
The Base of a crafted item stat would be 85% of the _best_ Average within the comparable levels of the looted item stat. If we didn't do it that way, in those cases where a lower level item had better looted stats the level the crafter could craft would still not be competitive.
The concern is that the chance of getting a loot stat better than a crafted stat that you propose would guarantee that every RE'd item was superior to crafted items up to about level 8. Here's why. An 8 stat item at level 8 requires 8 loot items and 64 stat calculations. 25% of 64 is 16. So there are two chances for every stat to be better than what a crafter could craft. At level 6 there would be 48 stat calculations. So there would be 1.5 chances that any particular stat would be better than a crafted item.
I would propose a much lower chance of a looted item stat being higher than the best a crafter could create -- something that would offer say one exceptional ship component for every 10 RE's. That would make it attainable but not common.
So every 10 level 1 engines would produce one exceptional RE'd level one engine. Every 60 level 6 engines would produce an exceptional level 6 engine and every 100 level 10 engines would produce an exceptional level 10 engine. That would be hard -- but still do-able. And it would be something to be proud of if you accomplished it.
Arryth wrote:
They do make things pilots want... Missiles, weapons, shields, boosters and armor are for the most part better, or at least more customisable for shipwrights. Often crafted reacters are better also. We should not be foreced to come to shipwrights for every thing. Looting good shipparts is a great part of the fun for pilots, and must out way the discontent of shipwrights about it.. they have to go with the numbers.. The truth is.. jtls could work with out crafters..albet they would have to make changes, but it cannot work with out pilots.
Why don't we just remove all the crafters from the game, make everything loot drop, so we can be exaclty like ever mmorg out there. Can we say EQ?
Crafters were put in the game to make a player economy. You remove the SW, like you want, you the now no longer have a player economy, you have a controlled economy like the other mmorgs.
No where are you forced to go to a SW. You can get all the loot you want in space. All i seen you state is that you want to have uber parts and not have to go to another player for anyone of it. This game is ment for player interaction. If you don't want any interaction like i feel you do, then go to a different game.
They put SW in the game, and it is not going to leave. Quit undermining us. Many of us SW are pilots are selves. We chose SW because we love crafting and making a business, well, a majority of us. If the prices are too high, demand a reduction in required resources and stop shopping at the high price dealers. You are not force into anything you don't want. Stop acting like someone has a gun to your back and telling you what to do. If you hate it, then pick up a StarWars flight sim and be happy then.
neutrineaux wrote:
Dav_Starkiller wrote:
Kalano wrote:
Out of curiosity. Has anyone tried just tweaking two of the lines instead of all three? What i mean is, i don't fly using all three axis most of the time, more of two of them.
What i wonder is, would there be a big noticible difference if the Pitch and Roll were experimented and the Yaw left alone. Would that increase a pilots ability in giving two axis the extra turning speed and leave the last one for minor tweaking of targeting and direction.
Pitch and roll would cause a pilot to use the up and down flight pattern using the roll to change in cornering direction.
Or for those who like left and right motion, the Yaw and Roll, with the same concept.
Been thinking about just Pitch and Yaw, but i don't know how that would affect flight without the Roll so much. I truely would cause me to change a lot in my flight pattern but i am curious.
Has anyone experiment on this at all? I guess i need to really start grinding to get up in the engines so i can really test it out.
As a long time TIE Fighter pilot (in this game and others, I might still be remembered as TFA_Merlin) pitch and roll are essential. I use what's known in the Star Wars Universe as the Tallon Roll (see http://theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=24795 ). It's a rapid climb into a tight spiral using pitch and roll only. You can get behind pretty much anything with this move. As a pilot, I only purchase engines with good stats in these areas. As an SW, I only spend points on pitch and roll unless it a custom order.
Just wanted to give you some props for bringing this subject up...and to let you all know what pilots look for. The reason most folks don't roll in combat is becuase it's not bound to the flight controls (for mouse pilots), so it's not a part of their beginning experience in JTL. Like I said, I've been flying TIE's for a long time. Hope this sheds some light on what stats are important to most pilots (well, the good ones anyway).
Merlin!
You may not remember me, but I remember seeing you around back in the day, and flying against you, if memory serves. Nice to see a familiar face.
XWA_neutrineaux.
Neut!
Geez, talk about back in the day...
I can remember long nights strapped into my chair for WoW (That's Week of War folks, not that other thing. This is old school.). Good to see that you can't keep the old pilots down. I also think it's awesome that you guys have moved your clan to JTL. Hella coo. I haven't seen many mates around that were XvT just yet (I've been deployed, bought JTL while I was in the Gulf). Do you know if the old TIE Fighter Alliance has moved here?
Good seein ya again neutrineaux... maybe I'll see you in Deep Space (coming in from behind with lasers blasting...muahaha).