Shipwright Archive

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CapnKate wrote:

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DocSavag wrote:

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GogoDodo wrote:

i simply don't have the time or patience to make several of the 60 or so different components we have.

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This I think is the problem with treating shipwright like the existing crafting professions. The design of shipwright is to discourage you from trying to make several of the 60 or so different components available. The point is to create a diverse market so that shipwrights can compete for business in different areas. Factories would ruin that as they have for just about every other crafting profession.

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I would add that, if you're running a Arch business, a resource business, and now a SW business, and you find you don't have time... then you simply don't have time. You have to either give something up to become closer to a fulltime Shipwright, or be content with only being a fringe SW. You can't have it both ways. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. Shipwright has a certain level of commitment to it, and if you can't do it, you just can't do it.

Much in this game is based around the opposite. You don't have to choose. You don't have to choose between AS and WS, because you can factory run everything and still do well. You don't have to settle for a lower-quality armor so you can use your best gun. No choices are necessary. But JTL is different. there are choices. there are sacrifices, there are trade-offs. And that, IMO, is the way it should be. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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I disagree, i can have my cake and eat it to. Its just a matter of finding an alternate method.

If we were able to get some sort of factory support i'd still want it to be limited. Runs of no more than 50, or only able to do runs of mark 3 or less, or components without sub components (simplier items). For no other reason than to get rid of traffic of people just looking to get their first ship in the air, leaving the SW free to do custom orders.

G

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bozotheclowno wrote:
Random idea...

Devs should have added better factory support. Plain and simple.

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Sadly you will see no factories, the general concensus in beta was to not have them the Devs stated we would not have them, the only way to get them at this point is to get shipwrights all together and raise a big stink and maybe in two years we'll see ship factories, I for one don't mind, it makes ships more individualized. Like you I have made plenty of money selling nothing but chassis, missiles, repair tools, and customization/texture kits. Also like you i'm only crafting for my guildies, my initial customer base, and by appointment only. What I have found however to be useful is to do a single component run per week, generally for me I will factory up like Mark II through Mark V weapon damage intensifiers etc, then just make a nice big component run on a Monday and let it run for the week, then the second week I've made engines and let it run, then boosters etc etc. I find everything to still sell out quite quickly and this also affords me time to do other things while my vendors churn out the $$'s.

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CapnKate wrote:
I am a Master Shipwright(Either Kettemoor's first, or very, very close to it). I gravitated to the profession after playing it in Beta, had the resources, got the game on the 26th, and so on.

Not the important part. Just background.

If you aren't making enough profit to be worth your time, it's either time to withdraw from the public market and possibly the profession, or it's time to rethink your pricing.

Factories are a TERRIBLE IDEA. Someone mentioned that things were very different in Beta. True. One of the things we didn't see in beta was an extreme shortfall in resource availability. Well, it's happening. Steel and ore are, at least on kettemoor, very hard to come by in quantity and quality right now. You think FACTORIES are going to help that? You think scarcer resources are going to DROP your prices? No, Sorry. Don't think so.

Stop thinking like a Weaponsmith(no offense to WSes). we don't need another profession where a dozen or less people can provide for an entire server by cranking out factories from lot-swapped resource harvests. We Have plenty of them. if that's the way you want to play, there are plenty of lucrative options open to you.

Now, if you want to succeed as a SW, you don't need factories. Especially not with what you're saying. You need a realistic sense of self-worth. Tiaga hit it on the head. there are two parts to the equation. Time and profit. You want to fix time, I presume because you expect people to balk at your prices if you raise them. Some will. Some always will. Catering to them is a slippery slope. I assume here that you don't want to fix time due to not wanting to invest that much time into the profession. But if that sad state of affairs *is* the case, my advice is to get out now. Save yourself the trouble and heartbreak later and do it now.

things are just settling into a comfortable zone for me. I don't have to advertise anymore. My customers hear word of mouth and come to me. many buy from my vendor, which is there and full of loot(as a 4443 pilot, I collect it in droves) for both our conveniences. Others see that the sign outside says I specialize in "fine custom ships". And they make orders. I get enough business to make Very Good Money regularly, but not so much that I get burned out on crafting. I run missile packs and such on the factory, because those make sense to factory run, and so on.

Now, regarding pricing. I charge 10 cpu on chassis and 20 for components, with looted components on a scale that depends on how stats compare to the crafted stuff, and that may go up if the resource market doesn't stabilize soon, but I digress. there are people selling loot for 5K a pop regardless... there are people doing ships for 3cpu across the board. Some quality is good, some is bad. Yet, despite this huge disparity, people frequent my shop, and they buy lots of merchandise. And they see other prices, and they come back. Why?

Lots of reasons. But I can sum up, by saying this: I found out today, from customers in my shop when they came to pick up orders I'd finished, that I have a reputation on this server. I am known to be one of if not the most expensive Shipwrights on Kettemoor, apparently. However, I am apparently also known to be one of if not the most consistant Shipwrights on the server with regards to quality, service, and honesty. I was thanked no less then three times today alone for living up tothat reputation. I value my product, i value my time, and i value the credits my customers pay and I value their happiness with the product. And this all means that The CUSTOMER now values my product, and my time, and my store policies MORE then they value their credits paid me. And that is where the key lies. Show a strong face, and you are strong. People like free stuff, and cheap stuff, and deals. But they don't trust them. I get a lot of tells to the effect of "I found [X] for [cheap price]. Do these stats sound good?" They expect a catch at that price. they expect poor quality. They ask me, because they know my standards are high, that I know my profession, and that I'll give the answer to them straight. And i think they know that the 3cpu Shipwright doesn't value their product and doesn't wish to spend the kind of time with the customer and profession that warrants the higher prices. And I'm sorry, but that's not the way the profession is designed. Noone told you to play it if you don't like that.

You don't have to answer every question posed you. You don't. People look to you for authority and answers-- of course. you build the things, you should know a lot about them. If you don't... well. But that DOESN'T mean you need to answer them all and sell yourself short. Shipwrights are busy. Good Shipwrights are VERY busy. It isn't bad customer service to say "You'll have to place an email order, and I'll get to you soon" or "I'm backlogged-- I can't take more orders" or "I have a lot of work right now, please leave an email and i'll get back to you." It isn't bad to say "I can't handle questions right now, i'm really busy." It isn't offputting to put up and afk message saying that you're busy with something, "if this is in regards to parts or a ship, please email and I'll get back to you on it". If this is enough to make them get bent out of shape... if being busy because you are a shipwright that does a lot of work is something they aren't prepared to deal with, they DO NOT value your time. You need to value it, and if a prospective client doesn't value you and your work and your time when they approach you, they never will. You don't have time for that nonsense. You have paying customers to deal with. Your time and attention has a value. Period. But *you* have to assign it. Don't be afraid to be busy. Don't be afraid to say no. the majority of the time, It's more impressive to a potential customer that you are thought highly enough of that you don't have time for random tells. And you don't have to be a waspish, grumpy SW to value your time like this. Simply show that when you are giving a customer attention, that's where your attention is, and everyone's turn comes. But DO NOT let the customer run the show. They aren't always right. It isn't a truism. many players treat Doctors, entertainers, smugglers, IDs, WSes, ASes, and now Shipwrights as if they're just NPCs. To be used at the convenience ofthe player. "Buff me." "Tip you for heals? lol." "Slice my gun." "make me a ship now." "make me a gun, I'll pay." part of this is what they're used to. AFK entertainers. Buffbots. Crafter vendors where you can find 1000 identical suits of uber-composite. You don't have to act like one, though.

You don't have to spend all your time crafting. You don't need a factory. You don't need a vendor stocked with hundreds of items. you don't need to beat the server's other prices. You don't need to devote all your play time, casual or otherwise, to the profession to succeed. it can be done, and done well. Forget the other professions. Forget the ground game, this is a JTL profession, and space teaches us that JTL is NOT the game we know. Unlearn what you have learned. Free your mind. Try something new. Shift your paradigm. reassess your values. Value yourself. Value your time.

because, in the end, if you can't pull off any of those things, a little thing like factory support isn't going to save you. With or without them, you won't be sticking around in the long haul.

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Xactly, make what you can, if you look around at similar posts you'll probably see that NO shipwright has a massive stock of items, I've chewed through over 15 million resources (not including the initial grinding materials to make master shipwright) and the ONLY thing I can keep in stock are texture kits, paint kits, and repair tools because I have four factories dedicated to making these and in all actuality I sell my stuff at a very reasonable price. But I make 15cpu off those tools that I CAN mass produce, in all actuality ship sales are the New York cuts of my business but tools are my bread and buttah. The payoff is that my clients get their ships and components at cut rate prices and are willing to go ahead and shell out another measly 5k each to get tools to repair and paint their ship. Hell I'm not even afraid to tell them this, in the short run they save alot of money, in the long run I make back the money I may be loosing selling chassis and components cheap.

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Tiaga wrote:
Random idea....

Raise your prices to a level that gives you the money you think your time is worth? At worst it's the same as no longer making components. At best, you make better money.

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I dont think you get my point. I can spend about 3-5minutes craftinga Mk3 reactor+addonship only to earn about 15-20k depending on my mood... Granted you can make the addons on a factory but it still has to take up space somewhere, and with so many different addons to make, the sheer stock for addons would be pretty high... Its just not worth it when you compare "time crafting" to "credits earned" for ship components. People may disagree with me, but hey, now I get to fly more....

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Rugburn wrote:

Without factory support I have to stop making components.. The time spent to money gained on completing one fullship component order is just not worth it. I make much more money with chassis and consumables, and I can enjoy more flying time. Besides, some looted parts are better than crafted items and they are more abundant than crafted ones.

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At first glance I didnt agree with you. Then I sat and thought about it,I have to say that you are right. I see ship ammo and chassis fly off my vendorslike it was going out of style. Looted components are way more available that crafted ones. The whole thing is backwards. How can looted parts be more abundant than crafted ones? And, like you mentioned, the looted parts can be much better. I may end up going this route causeI spend about 3 hours a day crafting to keep up with demand. I'd like more flying time to.

Message Edited by Gooney on 11-04-2004 10:46 AM

You're complaining about profit vs time spent. Profit/time effectively. Saying the ratio is too low, and trying to deal with the time half, which isn't under your control. However, the price half of the equation has just as much impact on the profit/time ratio as the time spent crafting does. And that part you DO have control over.

If you don't feel it's worth your time, then either don't do it (As you've apparently chosen) or raise your prices so it IS worth your time.

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GogoDodo wrote:

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Blacca wrote:

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CapnKate wrote:
And i think they know that the 3cpu Shipwright doesn't value their product and doesn't wish to spend the kind of time with the customer and profession that warrants the higher prices. And I'm sorry, but that's not the way the profession is designed. Noone told you to play it if you don't like that.

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This is the only part i have a problem with. The rest is good and golden. I do 3cpu ships. They may not be the best out there, but they'll get you in space for a fair price. You want me to try experimenting on them a bit differently, i will, no extra charge. You want it made out of higher end materials, then you'll pay alot more. Its not that i don't value my product, i want to offer a base for the customer to judge by.

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this is the danger in generalizing as I've done. there's always exceptions. Personally, i think that with that sort of time and care, you're selling yourself well short of your value, but You price the way you want to. I don't see you complaining about not making enough money for your time spent, so It's all good.

But I think in *general*, most of our Shipwrights, at least on Kett, that are selling at these prices, really don't care that much how happy the customer is. It's just another vendor in the mega-mall. Impersonal, uninteresting... there's not even a note about emailing [blank] for orders. It's just "here's what we've got, take it or leave it. It's up to you to get what you need-- I have other things to do." And that's the attitude I was targetting there. If you're selling at those prices, andhappy about the use of your time, then great-- you're golden. i don't agree with your assesment of the worth, but it's your business, not mine, at that point. Personally, I feel that that added service-- swapping out parts, re-building to different specs, talking with the client, offering payment alternatives and plans for the poorer customers... that's all high-value stuff i choose to roll into the price because i think it's worth it. You may feel differently, and that's fine.

Really, the target and purpose of the post is to help others with their problems in the business by running down my own experiences and offering advice. Some of this is stuff people need to hear. they might want to charge more, but think they'll just end up with no sales, or whatever. At any rate, you do what's good for you, because that's who you're here for-- you.

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GarfBiocap wrote:

Good thread, I understand your concerns regarding components to the general public. Yes, space is fun, and it does give you feedback on the equipment needed, and the capabilities of the ships, and I am finding it hard to balance SW and pilot. Right now, I look at it as there are a lot of car salesmen out there, plugging Ford Taurus' out by the boatload for 3cpu or less. Most people are perfectly happy with a Taurus, but I plan on being a dealer of luxury cars!

I too have gravitated to not creating components, though for a completely different reason. For now, our guild relies a lot on RE'd parts, with the exception of certain items like reactors, launchers etc. I know that the capacitors, engines and reators we make are not as good as some looted items, but a discerning pilot will see a difference in the parts, crafted or looted, and know where to apply them. For example, our cert lvl 3 and 5 pilotscould not seem to find reactors to power all their equipment. It was easy to run lvl 3 and 5 reactors with 12.4 and 13.4k output. Ya, the reactor was a pig, but the users in need were generally y-wings, or privateer ships where mass was no issue.

Pilots will get more sophisticated.More feedback on what users need is coming in. Plus we as Shipwrights can better inform the public what we are capable of. I forsee a switch to crafted parts (hopefully SOE will fix the capacitors capacity/mass, engines and the reactor mass issues in crafting). And yes, it will have to be done on an individual basis by hand, NOT BY factory. I will oppose any effort to have SOE create shipwright factories!It will ruin the profession, and I think SOE got it right this time. Shipwright is a different animal thanAS or WS, this is what makes it fun.I will enjoy being a Shipwright, and will enjoy being able tosit down with my customers to create the best possible craft they need.

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Five stars for garf!!!!

I try to sell fully tested pre-euquipped advanced starter craft for around 120k. When ppl tell me, "I already have my parts, but I'm having trouble with mass," thats when I explain to them why I charge that high, it can take hours to fit the puzzle together. I charge for all the time spent staring at and memorizing numbers, loading screens back and fourth from my yaught (floating bank and crafting station), scarpping, reasembling, testing until I'm very proud of the ship. This can take several hours, if not all day sometimes. Ppl dont realize the time consumption in building a unique craft, even a smaller one.

The Syck I'm trying to sell right now has a capacitor thats like 880/39 recharge, 980max dmg cannon (it doesnt burnout) 10k generator, a top speed of 709, engine top speed of 60. But its hard to convince ppl that your ship is worth the price. Its all high quality stuff though, for a small fighter.

I think its worth 120k when it can take out a Tier 3 Imperial shuttle but to those who don't mind fitting the puzzle, (shipwrighting) of course the price is too high, but for someone wealthy who wants to jump into a better ship without all the screen staring I think its a good deal. But when you deed a ship you must remove all comps. so i guess it would have to be sold all in a backpack.

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Blacca wrote:

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CapnKate wrote:
And i think they know that the 3cpu Shipwright doesn't value their product and doesn't wish to spend the kind of time with the customer and profession that warrants the higher prices. And I'm sorry, but that's not the way the profession is designed. Noone told you to play it if you don't like that.

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This is the only part i have a problem with. The rest is good and golden. I do 3cpu ships. They may not be the best out there, but they'll get you in space for a fair price. You want me to try experimenting on them a bit differently, i will, no extra charge. You want it made out of higher end materials, then you'll pay alotmore. Its not that i don't value my product, i want to offer a base for the customer to judge by.

One thing i've learned as an arch is that if you show a little love to the customers then they'll show alot love back. Toss them a different price, get their order done ahead of schedule, experiment on storage a bit more, etc etc. They feel appreciated and liked. SW is the same way, answer some questions, maybe remake a chassis or component to their specs, throw in a free missle pack with their order.

I do think Kate hit on a strong note, this isn't like the other professions. This is probably the way they all should have been designed, with limited factory support forcing more interaction between crafters.

Ideally, probably the best way to do this would be to set up a shop with about a dozen master SW and have each focus on one component type, with chassis distributed between three SW. It would be hard to coordinate but it could singlehandedly become 'the' place to get equipment and chassis.

G