CUEmu - Thread Posts

LuciferMullins

Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:19 am

Actually, and this is just my opinion, there is room for both.

My Grind ships (to get to master), and the "Used Chassis Vendor" will use the absolute cheapest available resources. I don't care what the stats are for this line. Think of it as the Daewoo (no offense if you own one, but I conside them rolling coffins, like Geo Metros) line of chassis. You get what you get

The regular/premium chassis vendors are made with the best. Stuff that tends to be bid to 6cpu or higher during it's mining! Give it a couple of months and it's a shocking 40cpu or higher, because everyone wants/needs it. I'll tell you what, if I can sell the resource to some doc or weaponsmith, armorsmith, et al, for 30cpu that's what your getting charged for it in your ship.

It's not a desire to be the richest person on the server, I could care less about that. It's that age old American ideal of bang for buck. Selling to you nets me 2cpu, selling to joe blow there nets me 10cpu, I'm selling to joe blow. Those kinds of differences cannot be ignored.

EnFERn0 wrote:
Selling your ships for 1cpu is a bad model.

All resources used to craft ships requires high quality.
I do not intend to make ships out of scrap resources.

My ships prices will be based on resources quality,
why sell ships for 1cpu when I can sell the resources for much more?

Degriz Morningstar
Currently playing WoW on Kirin Tor
Dead Men Tell No Tales
Death and Honor
"Do not depend only on theory if your life is at stake."

Aomircko

Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:39 am

#15

loonatik wrote:

00over0 wrote:

First, if you mined your resources yourself, put the cost down as 1 cpu for the resources used in that particular object (basing prices on cpus is just intuitive--cpus are how the basic costs are valued as well).

If you're buying your resources, then put the cost down as whatever you paid.

Now add 1 or more to that number (I add two, personally, but I'm trying not to be judgmental--add two, three, four, five--whatever is appropriate to your server (power on my server is easily had at 1 cpu and 13 BER heavy harvesters run about 100k each, and we are not overly crowded). Do not add in extra yet--this is just to cover the basic costs (energy, maintenance, surveying time, travel time, etc.).

Wrong, because even if ive harvested the resources,I could EASILY turn around and sell them right now. So, really, my COST is how much I could buy/sell those resources for.

sorry no.....

the original post is correct. He mentions the cost to you, which is one of two things:

How much moneyit took you to mine it

What you paid for it

What you are talking about is the VALUE of the resource after you have obtained it, a small but important difference.

Brilyn

Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:15 am

#16

< As to the comments of "not wanting to apply real world business models" ... my question is, why not? More a curiousity than anything else. >

Because it's a hell of a lot of RL work for zero RL gain......

Take what Aomirckois doing, for example (yo, Aomircko, not flaming, just using you asa handy example.

).

S/he feels that their resources are costing them 2cpu. "Until the cost of the harvs is recouped".

Really?

When does this happen?

What time period have you decided that this should be broken over?

Why not longer?

Why not shorter?

Why do I not do this: because (fundamentally) it's arbitrary, and unneccsary.

If I spend 500k on Harvesters, the cost is recouped once I see 500k back in my bank account.

An over-simplification for RL? Hell yeah.

Does it do the job here? Hell yeah.

< They are also goal-oriented type games ... >

True, but (and we're getting off-topic here) *you* decide what those goals are.

Progressing a relationship, or gaining a skillbox. Both worthy goals.

Gaining a Skill box, or making 50 Disrupters for your shelves: essentially the same goal, with a different spin on it. The latter makes the skill box the means, not the end.

Gaining credits...... Not a goal I consider (for myself). I mean, if the *end* is credits, the most efficient means is doing Janta missions.

Crafting is:

Inefficient

Uncontrollabe (you can't *make* people buy from your store, or even find it)

< If I sell things below market value, I always feel like I'm wasting my time or missed a progression opportunity. >

*shrug*

"Market value" doesn't exist. It's an arbitrary number set by 'perceptions of worth'. I can chase that, or I can chase rainbows. The latter is more fulfilling, for me.

I mean, I see a lot of things sold at 'market value'. Dot Pikes for a couple mil. People paying 200k-300k per tissue for sets of Krayt tissue. That doesn't define what they're *worth*, but what people will *pay* for them.

In the case of the Tissue, it's quite stupid, because people *won't* pay 200k-300k per-tissue-used-in-the-gun.

I forsee a similar state of affairs should there be looted components for SW at somestage.

Brilyn
Master Weaponsmith
Master Shipwright
Main vendor on Naboo, Vagabond's Rest: -1850, 2330
Secondary vendor on Talus, Kyu'mai: 250, -4680
Starsider

jrscott

Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:57 am

#17

Brilyn wrote:

I mean, I see a lot of things sold at 'market value'. Dot Pikes for a couple mil. People paying 200k-300k per tissue for sets of Krayt tissue. That doesn't define what they're *worth*, but what people will *pay* for them.

In the case of the Tissue, it's quite stupid, because people *won't* pay 200k-300k per-tissue-used-in-the-gun.

FINALLY, I found a post where somebody says the same thing I do. Thank you, thank you.

Nothing frustrates me more than some 2 month "veteran" UBER-grinder who wants a Krayted T21 and wants to pay 500k for it and wants me to supply the tissue, and can't understand why I am so unreasonable as to not do it for him!

I just wonder what kind of "UBER-loot" out there in space is going to affect us like the ever-frustrating Krayt Tissue. I am very new at Shipwright (leveled to Novice last night) so not knowing how valuable any of these loots are, I went ahead and reverse engineered a level one engine I looted near Tatooine and placed it on a crappy Scyk chassis I built just to see how it compared to the starter Scyk! Wow, night and day! The roll speed and acceleration seemed MUCH faster.

I just wonder what the market is going to be like for this loot? And how is it going to affect pricing, i.e. like Krayt tissue has the effect of causing some Weaponsmiths to raise all their prices to cover the cost of what they pay for enhancements and SEAs.

Offer pre-CU SWG Servers NOW! End the suffering. SOE, let my people go!

00over0

Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:22 am

#18

I don't have much to say on the original topic--obviously those of us here are pretty strongly divided, and I consider that a good thing. Diversity in thought is freedom. But just two related points:

As for the late question of loot (and also decay). I just want to point out to those who were not in beta or were not there at the end that decay happens to all parts of a ship, including the chassis.Approximately (or maybe exactly)10% of the hitpoints of an item are lost each time it's destroyed (when your ship blows up).

Loot seems like it's great at the beginning--and it is, relatively speaking. At the beginning, unless you've gotten master right away, you can't build anything worth a damn. As time goes on, however, you will see that as a pilot you're lootingmostly the same garbage at tier IV that you were at tier I, meanwhile, the shipwright's products have become vastly better than almost anything looted. The consistent exceptions being engines and capacitors. And the loot decays.

I was never able to craft a better engine than most of the looted engines--same with capacitors.

What this means for pricing:

You will have return customers, there's no need to price an item as if it's an architecture item (permanent except for maintenance), it's are more akin to armor and weapons--ships have decay.

Out of the many items that go into ships, only two are demonstrably and consistently better than crafted, over time: engines and capacitors.

Shipwrights will not be left out in the cold on decay--we will have repeat customers.

Loot will not supercede shipwrights--if anything, loot increases the amount of sales. Why? Someone loots a great engine, but because it's got lower energy requirements and mass, there's now more room to add to the ship's equipment. Now the customer comes back to drop out the high energy, high mass reactor, for a lower energy reactor but add in that third set of cannons. And, oh, look--now there's room for armor in the front if it can be squeezed in with a couple of amazings, which eventually it is, with the customer paying for all attempts and the time, naturally.

-----
Etragahl (Former Jedi, Now SOE Slave)
Tal'Ira (Former Creature Handler, Now SOE Slave)

Dear SOE Developers, can I have some of what your smoking??

Sevardos

Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:39 am

#19

Brilyn wrote:

I mean, I see a lot of things sold at 'market value'. Dot Pikes for a couple mil. People paying 200k-300k per tissue for sets of Krayt tissue. That doesn't define what they're *worth*, but what people will *pay* for them.

In the case of the Tissue, it's quite stupid, because people *won't* pay 200k-300k per-tissue-used-in-the-gun.

Worth does = what people will pay for them. That's the definition of worth in an economy. You're trying to apply your opinion to economic dynamics on what something is worth - it doesn't work that way.

Value / worth is determined by what people will pay ... plain and simple. Any other definition for it is biased and highly subjective.

Sevardos

The ))SUN(( Centre

636 -3836 Corellia (just outside Coronet) - Bria

Buff Packs * All Meds * Harvesters * Factories * Designer Furniture * Tools

*** ALPHA TESTER: Combat Balance ***

GogoDodo

Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:04 am

#20

For a custom ship, I would add in anywhere from 3 to 10 cpu, personally, on top of the basic costs. To avoid pricing oneself out of the market, try to keep this number on the low-end the more resources that are used. So, add another 5 cpu for an item that requires 1000 in resources to make, but add only 3 or even 2 to something that takes 15000 in resources. The reasoning for this is that you're making a certain amount in less time, even if the job is somewhat difficult, by selling a large component. It takes less time to make one large sell, usually, than it does to make 20 small sales--so your time value should reflect this.

I have to say i like this statement.

A scheme i used for arch stuff was to figure out how much it cost me, resources + time to make an item. Somewhat arbitrary but once you figure it out, you can apply it to other items with ease. That number becomes 'cost', i add 10% and that is the 'wholesale' price, add another 10% and that is my 'retail' price. I put items on the vendor at 'retail' price. If someone would come to me and order a bunch of harvestors, they'd get the 'wholesale' price. I'm still making a profit, but they are getting a deal and more importantly they feel like they are being treated better. Good friends and guildies would then be able to get stuff at 'cost'.

I figure for chassis, if i make it with crap materials i can sell it at a decent base price. If someone wants one thats experimented and made with premium materials they're gonna have to pay alot more. Paying for quality resource, but also paying more cause they are using so much of the resource.

Still.... good thread.

Gogo T. Dodo
Master Architect, Master Artisan, Master Merchant
EmGo Corporation - Chairman and Chief Resource Monkey
Kor Vella, Corellia; Trinity City, Naboo
Starsider

Brilyn

Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:05 am

#21

< Worth does = what people will pay for them.>

That would be a biased and highly subjective definition.

'Worth' is defined on an individual basis. How much do I need it. How much do I *want* it. Can I get it elsewhere. Is it functionally better than the thing I can get over there. And so on.

There is *no* general definition for 'Worth'. There is the definition you choose to apply, but that simply indicates how subjective it is.

< You're trying to apply your opinion to economic dynamics on what something is worth - it doesn't work that way. >

Right back at ya.

Next you'll be trying to tell me that economics is a 'science'......

Brilyn
Master Weaponsmith
Master Shipwright
Main vendor on Naboo, Vagabond's Rest: -1850, 2330
Secondary vendor on Talus, Kyu'mai: 250, -4680
Starsider

Sevardos

Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:30 am

#22

Brilyn wrote:

< Worth does = what people will pay for them.>

That would be a biased and highly subjective definition.

'Worth' is defined on an individual basis. How much do I need it. How much do I *want* it. Can I get it elsewhere. Is it functionally better than the thing I can get over there. And so on.

There is *no* general definition for 'Worth'. There is the definition you choose to apply, but that simply indicates how subjective it is.

< You're trying to apply your opinion to economic dynamics on what something is worth - it doesn't work that way. >

Right back at ya.

Next you'll be trying to tell me that economics is a 'science'......

I don't pretend to know a lot of things, but I do know how worth is defined and it isas I stated. It's not a matter of debate. It's like debating whether a red ball is defined as a red ball or not. It's an absolute.

And it's not a matter of opinion on the dynamics. It's a fact. Aspects of economics is a science ... but I don't want to get into a debate on economics. The last thing I was trying to do is apply real life dynamics to a gaming economy. I was just clarifying what the definition of worth and value is.

Lets just chalk it up to agreeing to disagree.

Sevardos

The ))SUN(( Centre

636 -3836 Corellia (just outside Coronet) - Bria

Buff Packs * All Meds * Harvesters * Factories * Designer Furniture * Tools

*** ALPHA TESTER: Combat Balance ***

GogoDodo

Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:45 am

#23

Sevardos wrote:

I don't pretend to know a lot of things, but I do know how worth is defined and it isas I stated. It's not a matter of debate. It's like debating whether a red ball is defined as a red ball or not. It's an absolute.

but what if your color blind? is it still a red ball? what if your rodian and due do genetics you interpret green as red, is it a red ball or a green ball?

Worth and value are pretty much interchangable. Things will even out inthe end, someone may sell an xwing for 500k while someone else sells them for 250k. Both will make money, though the latter will probably have more happy customers (so long as he can keep up stock).

Gogo T. Dodo
Master Architect, Master Artisan, Master Merchant
EmGo Corporation - Chairman and Chief Resource Monkey
Kor Vella, Corellia; Trinity City, Naboo
Starsider

loonatik

Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:52 am

#24

Aomircko wrote:

loonatik wrote:

00over0 wrote:

First, if you mined your resources yourself, put the cost down as 1 cpu for the resources used in that particular object (basing prices on cpus is just intuitive--cpus are how the basic costs are valued as well).

If you're buying your resources, then put the cost down as whatever you paid.

Now add 1 or more to that number (I add two, personally, but I'm trying not to be judgmental--add two, three, four, five--whatever is appropriate to your server (power on my server is easily had at 1 cpu and 13 BER heavy harvesters run about 100k each, and we are not overly crowded). Do not add in extra yet--this is just to cover the basic costs (energy, maintenance, surveying time, travel time, etc.).

Wrong, because even if ive harvested the resources,I could EASILY turn around and sell them right now. So, really, my COST is how much I could buy/sell those resources for.

sorry no.....

the original post is correct. He mentions the cost to you, which is one of two things:

How much moneyit took you to mine it

What you paid for it

What you are talking about is the VALUE of the resource after you have obtained it, a small but important difference.

The resources are worth more than 1cpu period. If you can sale said resource for Xcpu, then to use it in your ship you need to make Xcpu or you are losing money PERIOD.

So again, the original post is dead wrong.

Message Edited by loonatik on 10-28-2004 12:57 PM

Loonatik
Master Troller

00over0

Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:10 am

#25

loonatik wrote:

The resources are worth more than 1cpu period. If you can sale said resource for Xcpu, then to use it in your ship you need to make Xcpu or you are losing money PERIOD.

So again, the original post is dead wrong.

Message Edited by loonatik on 10-28-2004 12:57 PM

You are not losing any money if they cost you 1 cpu (or less)to obtain. You are just not making as much money as you would in another business or as much as you could if you want to raise your prices.

It seems many of you want to run mining businesses--go do it. Relatively little effort is needed, and they have a high profit margin.

I find it very funny that so many people want everyone to charge a lot. If you want to charge more, go ahead--no one's stopping you. Oh, wait--if you charge more than someone else for the same product then no one will buy from you--theywill buyfrom someone else. Damn,thisis...let's see now...this is capitalism! OMG! Let'shave price fixing instead. Let's also all make sure that only a few people can fly, because of course in a game it's more fun the fewer who play.

-----
Etragahl (Former Jedi, Now SOE Slave)
Tal'Ira (Former Creature Handler, Now SOE Slave)

Dear SOE Developers, can I have some of what your smoking??

loonatik

Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:20 am

#26

00over0 wrote:

loonatik wrote:

The resources are worth more than 1cpu period. If you can sale said resource for Xcpu, then to use it in your ship you need to make Xcpu or you are losing money PERIOD.

So again, the original post is dead wrong.

Message Edited by loonatik on 10-28-2004 12:57 PM

You are not losing any money if they cost you 1 cpu (or less)to obtain. You are just not making as much money as you would in another business or as much as you could if you want to raise your prices.

Yes I am losing money. If I could turn around and sell those resources EASILY (especially right now) and make X cpu off of it, how the HELL is me selling it for less, spending the time to turn it intosomething,not losing money???

It seems many of you want to run mining businesses--go do it. Relatively little effort is needed, and they have a high profit margin.

Exactly, so why on EARTH would I sell my resources for less?

I find it very funny that so many people want everyone to charge a lot. If you want to charge more, go ahead--no one's stopping you. Oh, wait--if you charge more than someone else for the same product then no one will buy from you--theywill buyfrom someone else. Damn,thisis...let's see now...this is capitalism! OMG! Let'shave price fixing instead. Let's also all make sure that only a few people can fly, because of course in a game it's more fun the fewer who play.

Heh, the person who started this thread is giving his opinon on what to sell this stuff for. I am doing nothing different in my posts. No one here is talking about price fixing, everyone is sharing their opinon on the matter. Do I care if you want to lose money? No, I really dont. If you come out charging 1k per component and 15k per chassis you know what im going to do? Buy them and sell them. No loss to me, I actually save money that way instead of paying 10cpu for the resources im getting it at 1cpu.. (GRIND QUALITY PRICES).... lol

I find it very funny to see all these people cutting their own throats. Most of them did not take on the huge cost to grind to master as I have. Most are not making as good of quality as im making. No skin off my nose.

So sell your stuff for nothing. I really hope you do.

Message Edited by loonatik on 10-28-2004 01:31 PM

Loonatik
Master Troller

Shipwright Archive

Thread: For those having trouble deciding on a price