Shipwright Archive
Thread: Don't sell chassis, for the love of all that is sacred!
Subcriminal
Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:04 am
#14
Treychyyk wrote:
I agree with what the guy above me said. I've been saying it for a while now, if someone is looking for a ship and sees that it is 20k mass less on a 2cpu one than a 6-7 cpu one, they're going to save up for the bigger ship. If the devs just made resource quality and experimentation more effective on all shipwright parts, not just chassis, it would completely revolutionize the whole jtl experience.
Yeah experimentation could use some tweaking in things like engines. I can easily make a 90.4 and 104 speed engine, but I can't get the PYR above 50-ish, so loot wins in that department. All the devs need to do is merge PYR onto the same experimentation line to fix this problem.
IIscandar
Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:42 am
#15
The resource quality does matter for me. Since I started making chassis out of high qual material, I can almost always suprise a customer with the total mass I can obtain with chassis. They are selling so well, I am considering raising my prices. I am selling 4 or 5 chassis a week. Most of them have been tier 3 or above. I've dumped all my grind chassis into the trash can. I've sold a few at lower prices, but I just can't stand thinking people are buying inferior products from me. So into the bin they all go.
From the evidence I've seen, the reason chassis are not selling for most shipwrights is , every shipwright has chassis for sale! 1 out of 10 shipwright vendors I see, has custom components. 10 out of 10 have chassis and of those, maybe 2 have the maximum mass you can get for a chassis.
Then let's consider that a new chassis, often means a new set of parts. Most of the chassis I sell are then followed by a complete loadout of parts. Someone walks in and buys an xwing, they might buy a few parts, but if you happen to have the best chassis they've seen in awhile, and you have a good stock of parts, when they finish that next equipment mission, they will be back.
When you are a pilot, and you want that armor in front and back, and the only thing stopping you is 900 points of mass, it makes a big difference to have all green materiel.
I can't argue that I would like to see a bigger difference in mass when I use good material, but to say that low-ballers and low quality chassis make it impossible to generate a profit on chassis, is something I don't agree with.
They make my chassis seem UBER, and I can't ask for much better than that.
DarkRDeepSea
Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:28 pm
#16
I took up Shipwright for the love of the art. It just happens to make me a modest income, but i'm sorry, some of the prices I've seen on Chimaera for basic chassis are just scandalous. It seems to me that a lot of people smelled SW and thought 'hey, a fast buck' then started whining when they weren't making as much money as their WS or AS friends, or as fast. Or at least not enough to feed their non-crafting alt.
My personal aim is to have more stock than anyone else, at a better price than anyone else, with a more personal service than anyone else. This surely is the same criteria for most crafters who AREN'T in it just for the money. I find the whole undercutting argument redundant, excuse the pun, but I just don't buy it. It's not hard to undercut someone who is charging stupid money for a chassis, just by charging a REASONABLE price for it? I make my chassis and parts from the best stuff I can find or mine. If I knew I was putting cack in, regardless of the result, I'd just feel guilty selling it... lol.
If you offer a good service, word of mouth will aid your business and wrench it away from the careless Space Cowboys whose heart wasn't in it from the offing. I, for one, am in it for the longhaul because it's what I love to do. I like to think of all the people using MY parts and MY ships with MY name on to have fun with, and pride alone would be enough even if I only broke even (which some months, is the case!). Sure, it can sometimes feel like a chore- but seeing the finished results, and how pleased people are with them, makes it all worthwhile. If someone came to my Mall and said 'hey Deep, have you got XYZ chassis?' and I replied 'Nah, no profit in it' it would speak volumes for my atitude. Put it this way, if I was the customer, I'd probably walk. Anyone who knows me knows the pride I take in my business, and my ever lengthening repeat customer list is testament to that.
/moral highground off
Those who will never drop Shipwright because they love it, stand firm and weather the storm, stick to producing quality goods at reasonable prices and you'll be just fine (this INCLUDES chassis). Those who took it for fast money then realised it wasn't so fast after all, I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.
My personal aim is to have more stock than anyone else, at a better price than anyone else, with a more personal service than anyone else. This surely is the same criteria for most crafters who AREN'T in it just for the money. I find the whole undercutting argument redundant, excuse the pun, but I just don't buy it. It's not hard to undercut someone who is charging stupid money for a chassis, just by charging a REASONABLE price for it? I make my chassis and parts from the best stuff I can find or mine. If I knew I was putting cack in, regardless of the result, I'd just feel guilty selling it... lol.
If you offer a good service, word of mouth will aid your business and wrench it away from the careless Space Cowboys whose heart wasn't in it from the offing. I, for one, am in it for the longhaul because it's what I love to do. I like to think of all the people using MY parts and MY ships with MY name on to have fun with, and pride alone would be enough even if I only broke even (which some months, is the case!). Sure, it can sometimes feel like a chore- but seeing the finished results, and how pleased people are with them, makes it all worthwhile. If someone came to my Mall and said 'hey Deep, have you got XYZ chassis?' and I replied 'Nah, no profit in it' it would speak volumes for my atitude. Put it this way, if I was the customer, I'd probably walk. Anyone who knows me knows the pride I take in my business, and my ever lengthening repeat customer list is testament to that.
/moral highground off
Those who will never drop Shipwright because they love it, stand firm and weather the storm, stick to producing quality goods at reasonable prices and you'll be just fine (this INCLUDES chassis). Those who took it for fast money then realised it wasn't so fast after all, I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.
joinrdy
Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:55 pm
#17
even though that is a moving story, i'm not moved, have to say i was just doing custom orders, but a recent experiance has left me down to just doing firesprays when i get them...my experiance that left anasty taste in my mouth was dumping high quality resouces into an a-wing and charging 5 cpu for it, only to get the response "OMF god, that is too expensive....blah blah blah", those resources i waisted on the ship could have made alot of high quality componets, and i can only agree with the pilot that was complaining, diffence in mass was only 1.5k higher, and average price for the ship on my server is about 2-300k, 1.5k mass for 100k more didn't really make sense to me either...anyways, i'm done making chasis now, 'cept for guildies....
Subcriminal
Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:39 am
#18
DarkRDeepSea wrote:
If someone came to my Mall and said 'hey Deep, have you got XYZ chassis?' and I replied 'Nah, no profit in it' it would speak volumes for my atitude. Put it this way, if I was the customer, I'd probably walk. Anyone who knows me knows the pride I take in my business, and my ever lengthening repeat customer list is testament to that.
I always refuse to make chassis when asked. If questioned I tell them the truth, there are two reasons for me: 1) No proffit thanks to undercutters- if I charged what they were worth I'd get laughed at, 2) I don't have enough resources to make both high-end ship components AND Chassis at the same time. Chassis are a big resource sink, and I don't have a guild or 3rd parties supplying me with matieral (it's just me and my humble 10 lots).
If people have a problem with me wanting to make a buck, screw them. I'm not operating a soup kitchen for the poor. Yes I love shipwright for the love of the art, but I want to pay myself and have a successful business too. I'm intent on having both, and you don't get that by shooting yourself in the foot.
Of course a lot of people have their own means of operating their business. I am very nice and helpful to my customers, however I also know when to say "no" to them, and beleive me there are times. The customer isn't always right, and when they ask for something that is against my store operating policy (like making chassis) I very gently tell them no. There is no reason to feel intimidated by your customers. I for one don't really care if my refusal to chassis on requestmeans that I will no longer have the requesting personas a repeat customer. If they wanna shop somewhere else, fine.
Dezrick
Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:54 am
#19
I couldn't honestly say I was doing the best service I can for my customers if I didn't make chassis. I make the best I can with the resources available for the price. I try to give my customers a complete service and as much choice on my vendors as I can.
When I make a chassis and it falls bellow the standard value for mass it either gets scrapped or put aside for personal use (this even happened with a poor set of experimentations on a Krayt the other day, it came out at 209,500 mass so it got zapped- and thats a lot of resources to throw away).
Just because I can't make capacitors that match the better looted ones doesn't stop me stocking a few (for those who absolutely need one), but I will always advise people not to buy them, and for custom orders I will review my looted and RE'd stock first. People don't have that choice with chassis so it is our duty to provide the best we can given the constraints of the game and the financial sense that keeps our businesses afloat.
I agree that the small variation in mass in response to the quality of the resources is an oddity and should be reviewed, but for now we have to live with it and service our customers as best we can.
Regards,
IIscandar
Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:21 am
#20
Just last night I encountered a customer who was asking about a Tie Bomber chassis I had in stock. It was maxed on the Mass, over 192k.
He said "can we make a deal, 300k is a bit steep?".
Now I knew he was saying this because 90% of the chassis he sees are the result of a shipwright' grind to master, or poor resources because "the difference is not that much". So these have been going for 200k or 150k or worse. So to him, it was a bit steep.
I politely exclamed "too steep?", then went on to explain how much it costs to make one of those. He asked, " well don't you mine your own resources?" and I said "Yes, but to always have the best quality, I have to harvest as well as buy". Sometimes the only good source of something is buying it on the market. That's the same in rl.
So I sell the bomber for 300k no problem. Once he understood the true value of the item, he didn't mind paying, infact, he dropped another 100k on components as well.
Lots of businesses have items with very little profit margin, and those with high profit margins. One would hope the high margin items sell more often to cover the lower ones, and in my case that is what happens. I wonder if many of the spending sprees some pilots go on in my shop is because they just bought a new chassis from me and now are filling it with components. If they'd have come in looking for a new ship and had to go elsewhere for a chassis, they will probably buy all the parts they can from that same place.
Time is short, and from what I've seen on Corbantis, good shipwrights are hard to come by.
I understand how many shipwrights are upset by the perceived waste of profit by making chassis. If I were to charge 10cpu for chassis, which is still half what my armorsmith buddy charges for armor, a decimator would sell for 1.5 million credits. While I think this is great, I'm not sure we will ever see this kind of margin on chassis without an improvement in resource quality results.
Still, pilots need ships, and some profit is better than no profit. I don't have the slightest problem telling my customers, that if they cannot afford my price, there are probably chassis out there with less mass for cheaper. I know the value of my chassis, and if I cannot help a pilot to understand, then so be it.
PaleGT1
Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:35 am
#21
Interesting post but I think alot of people are missing the boat, so to speak, hehe. Some calling out the competition on "undercutting" prices. Meanwhile, others argue over the insanely high cost that some SW's charge. Both have valid and invalid arguments. For example....
Crafter A: For whatever reason, this person is more prone to buy the resources required to build their stuff as they might be in a tight squeeze with their housing lots. By buying most, or even all, the resources.... Crafter A is doing something both good *and* bad at the same time. Good -They help keep the "miners" happy by feeding them a steady source of income. Bad - Because a miner is always gonna charge more than a harvestor, that extra cost is passed on to the consumer, which makes pilots unhappy.
Crafter B: This person is worshipping the devs for making the POB ships/yachts no longer take up 1 lot. They often live in a small or medium house, or even live on naboo with a small style 2 and medium to maximize storage. They run 1 power generator and 6 harvestors at least, harvesting all their own resources either because they can't afford to buy in bulk from miners, or because they think it makes better economic sense, or even "roleplay" aspects, hehe. This too is both good *and* bad. Good - By harvesting their own resources, they are getting resources for dirt cheap at far less than 1cpu. They can set their prices however they want, usually lower than Crafter A types. This makes pilots happy. Bad - Because they are getting their resources extremely cheap and passing on the savings to cash strapped pilots, or even picky shopaholic pilots who are happy to spend a couple hours visiting SW shops looking for great deals. This leads to the infamous allegations of "undercutting", which makes the Crafter A shipwrights furious.
Face it, if Crafter B can get the job done and harvest and build everything cheap, pass on saving to the consumer pilots, then there is only one way to beat them. Compete with them! Throw down those harvestors and get that dirt cheap stuff too. Even dirt cheap resources can have 1000 in some stats. Obviously, high stat resources are prized, but a harvestor doesn't care if it is OQ 1 metal or OQ 999 metal. The harvestor is still gonna charge the same amount. A Crafter B who gets a harvestor or 2 down on a high stat spot is even further in control, as they can modify their pricing structure according to the stat. Crafter A has to price their items based on how much the miner charged them. Crafter A has less flexibility.
I can sympathize with both arguments as I'm an SW myself, but I have the luxury of doing it because I want to do it for myself and to have fun. I'm not out to get rich quick, or compete with all the other SW's. As someone in a forum said, the "hot rodder" mentality. I don't just wanna fly the ship, I wanna change the oil, tweak the engine, kick the landing skids, repaint it once a week "just because", etc, etc.
To sum up, if someone is willing to do the work of running all their harvestors and devoting alot of time to running a shipwright business, I think it is very unfair to call them an "undercutter". To me, an undercutter is someone who goes out blowing money buying up all the resources and THEN selling at a loss, just to annoy the SW's. Basically, if Crafter A can't compete with Crafter B on pricing and winning over customers, then Crafter A has nobody to blame but themselves.
One thing I didn't see anyone mention... the "price gougers". This is my 5th mmorpg and I've seen pretty much every excuse a crafter (and non-crafter if it concerns loot/rares) can toss out their. Alot of people try to control the market and bad-mouth anyone who doesn't go along, or attempts to buy them out everytime they load up their vendor. I've seen excuses from "I'm lazy" to "Patch caused ore to stop spawning" or "My ISP was down yesterday, I got behind and everyone has to suffer because I did.". Or "This is a very rare item". Most all of which is scam related.
Anyways, to each their own.
Subcriminal
Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:02 pm
#22
I am still of the mind that chassis should be avoided. Making them to be a noble person IMHO is a waste of effort. I've been there with the artisan vehicle patch. I've also once been a slave to my customers in the name of good service, and it burned me out quick.
If you want to sell chassis, but you still want a good chance at making a decent profit you HAVE to mix it up a bit and sell things other than chassis to get you by. Making your business entirely out of selling chassis (and nothing else) is near impossible for the reasons stated in my original post- it's all game mechanics and consumer behavior. If you manage to make a profit doing chassis and nothing else, god bless you but know that you're more of an exception than the rule.
IIscandar
Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:24 pm
#23
I'll be the first to agree that selling ONLY chassis is bad business and the easiest way to make sure pilots don't return to your vendor.
Subcriminal wrote:
I am still of the mind that chassis should be avoided. Making them to be a noble person IMHO is a waste of effort. I've been there with the artisan vehicle patch. I've also once been a slave to my customers in the name of good service, and it burned me out quick.
If you want to sell chassis, but you still want a good chance at making a decent profit you HAVE to mix it up a bit and sell things other than chassis to get you by. Making your business entirely out of selling chassis (and nothing else) is near impossible for the reasons stated in my original post- it's all game mechanics and consumer behavior. If you manage to make a profit doing chassis and nothing else, god bless you but know that you're more of an exception than the rule.
amandastarcrest
Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:00 am
#24
I do quite well selling chassis, of course that's is not all I sell, but since I mine my own resources I can afford to sell high quality, high mass chassis using good components at around 2cpu and never more than 3cpu. Since that is what I'd sell the resources for it works for me. The key is having other items to sell in my shop to supplement and compliment my chassis sales. I sale about 5-6 chassis a week and w/ the dwindling number of pilots (it seems) I think that is a fair percentage of the chassis sales on Ahazi server.
:** A'manda Starcrest **
Subcriminal
Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:12 am
#25
IIscandar wrote:
I'll be the first to agree that selling ONLY chassis is bad business and the easiest way to make sure pilots don't return to your vendor.
That's just the problem, a lot of people were doing just that and wondering why their business was failing miserably. I'm just passing on some knowledge to those who fell into that trap, that's all. YMMV.
Subcriminal
Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:20 am
#26
amandastarcrest wrote:
I do quite well selling chassis, of course that's is not all I sell, but since I mine my own resources I can afford to sell high quality, high mass chassis using good components at around 2cpu and never more than 3cpu. Since that is what I'd sell the resources for it works for me. The key is having other items to sell in my shop to supplement and compliment my chassis sales. I sale about 5-6 chassis a week and w/ the dwindling number of pilots (it seems) I think that is a fair percentage of the chassis sales on Ahazi server.
If you only sell 5-6 chassis a week, then it's your ship components that are your bread and butter. I'dprobably conclude that your statement"doing quite well selling chassis" isa bitmisleading. Don't give newer shipwrights the impression that chassis are some kind of business gold mine, or that it's easy to profit selling them. We all know chassis are a hard sell in light of all the undercutting. Any novice SW who would like to run an accomplished business is going to need honesty from those of us who have been around the block.
Message Edited by Subcriminal on 03-09-2005 04:24 PM