Shipwright Archive
Thread: So Rangers got their Health increased because they complained and crafters do not?
Kadestonebow
Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:18 pm
#14
yay...there are more people like me who are worried about our non combat characters suriving outside cities...i hope they will give us something as protection besides the shields...i dont want to wear composite or something like that but something that can help me live long enough to get away without gettin incap. truthfully we dont need extra ham only armor.
Insidius
Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:38 pm
#15
If you don't want the risk, stay at home. Crafters don't belong in armour, period.
Harvesters aren't a necessity to crafting.
If you want the benefit of harvesters, you're gonna have to put up with the "risk."
If the risk is too much, buy your resources.
Crafters did just fine before armour, and they'll do just fine without it, too.
Harvesters aren't a necessity to crafting.
If you want the benefit of harvesters, you're gonna have to put up with the "risk."
If the risk is too much, buy your resources.
Crafters did just fine before armour, and they'll do just fine without it, too.
SmokingFrog
Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:29 pm
#16
Harvester ARE a necessity to crafting. In case it's not apparent, the only place that surveying appears is in the artisan branch. Crafters do the surveying, and I don't know of one who doesn't maintain their own harvester operations. Harvesters are NOT a benefit of the crafting professions any more than armor or weapons are a benefit of the combat professions - they are tools of the trade pure and simple.
That being said, I don't wear armor on my crafters, and have never felt the need. With the changes in CU level requirements it simply means we'll have to run in continuous solo groups to reap the benefit of combatant levels. It's at worst an inconvenience and a change in our normal activity. Is making harvester runs going to be more difficult? Possibly, but not with appropropriate forethought. Is making harvester runs going to be impossible? Absolutely not.
Maybe it's time for all of us to embrace the changes coming and find out how we can best work within their framework rather than bashing the devs. The game is going to change, and no amount of negativity is going to prevent that.
That being said, I don't wear armor on my crafters, and have never felt the need. With the changes in CU level requirements it simply means we'll have to run in continuous solo groups to reap the benefit of combatant levels. It's at worst an inconvenience and a change in our normal activity. Is making harvester runs going to be more difficult? Possibly, but not with appropropriate forethought. Is making harvester runs going to be impossible? Absolutely not.
Maybe it's time for all of us to embrace the changes coming and find out how we can best work within their framework rather than bashing the devs. The game is going to change, and no amount of negativity is going to prevent that.
Marsirion
Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:35 pm
#17
Osk you are talking about live. Crafters rarely die in live because of armor and non existence of damage multipliers.
I actually tested my template WS/SW plus ID so I get a level 1 character in TC. Out of the 10 times I went out in Dath, naboo, tatooine, Lok, Coronet, I got incapped 9/10 by wild spawns while surveying, riding a bike with a spawn that didn't show up right away. Out of the 10 outings I tohad to clone 6 times. I tried leading the mobs away but they would just go back and guard the harvesters.
The new level system makes it so that damage multipliers to low level toons guarranties 1 shot incaps.
The only way around it is to get a combat template like you said so I tested that too and it is doable. With the above template you can get WS/SW & TKA 4440 or 4044 which makes you level 40- 41.
Still it seems like a downgrade compared to what we have in live nowvs. the CU. In what way are crafters imbalancing combat? So why penalize us so much? How about a compromise?
Crafters are all innocent bystanders being hit by the CU.
I suppose if ayear from now we have to sell ships and weapons/armor/houses at triple the rate because of our combat overhead (read: looking for bodyguards, paying 100k /hr) then it would be a plus for us and too bad for our clients.
Just remember, the lack of compassion on the plight of crafters at this critical juncture called the CU started it all.
Marsirion
Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:45 pm
#18
Insidius wrote:
If you don't want the risk, stay at home. Crafters don't belong in armour, period.
Harvesters aren't a necessity to crafting.
If you want the benefit of harvesters, you're gonna have to put up with the "risk."
If the risk is too much, buy your resources.
Crafters did just fine before armour, and they'll do just fine without it, too.
Oh? And what kind of ships do you craft? Have you seen the insane resource requirements in the CU lately? What is your crafter template?
On the bright side buying resources will be exhorbitant post CU and we can just pass on the overhead to the combatants. I suppose harvesting will be a pain and I would be surprised if anyone would cell less than 10cr/CU.
This would mean that weapons and ships will probably triple in price and that can as well be passed on to the client.
So essentially if you tell us crafters to "suck it up now", well in the end we'll see who needs to suck it up.
It won't happen soon though. Probably a year to suck up all existing inventories of craftables and resources, then we'll see an inflated economy like a repeat ofSWG 3 months post launch.
talam
Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:01 pm
#19
I read through all the "CU sucks because" posts and just get amused. Not at the changes or that what was seen as a great system is getting mutilated, but by the fact it took this long. Have you guys played EQ or EQ2? If you have, you know crafter types are always given the short end of the stick...and usually in uncomfortable places. If you haven't had the opportunity to play them, well, SWG post CU is a lot like EQ2, crafting will not really be treated with the respect they deserve. Of course, this is a bad place to put this revelation as it seems negative CU.
From my limited amount of time on CU I like it. It makes sense to me that as you progress doing something you get better at it and learn more tricks of the trade. So everyone not being able to wear any armor they want makes sense to me. We have to be certed for out weapons why not our armor. What I hope is after the combat upgrade is a crafting upgrade. Along with the idea of being able to wear armor as a pure artisan, being able to drop a heavy harvester as a pure combat has always left a sour taste in my mouth. Maybe we can drop using crafting station to experiment on things until a novice elite crafting prof.
From my limited amount of time on CU I like it. It makes sense to me that as you progress doing something you get better at it and learn more tricks of the trade. So everyone not being able to wear any armor they want makes sense to me. We have to be certed for out weapons why not our armor. What I hope is after the combat upgrade is a crafting upgrade. Along with the idea of being able to wear armor as a pure artisan, being able to drop a heavy harvester as a pure combat has always left a sour taste in my mouth. Maybe we can drop using crafting station to experiment on things until a novice elite crafting prof.
Thunderbyte
Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:21 pm
#20
joinrdy wrote:
Thunderbyte wrote:
For example, if your idea was implemented, if I want to hold an enemy back in battle while my buddies pound them, I could be a Fencer or an artisan...one takes weeks to level, the other takes about 15 minutes (not counting surveying).
not trying to flame at all, but how does some one with no fighting abilities "hold them back"? I'm also not trying to imply that my idea is the greatest either, obviously there would be a problem with tk's who don't use weapons being able to exploit this idea too, but something should be done for the crafter, it's unrealistic to think that someone who is all about fighting would give up his/her game time to help some one harvest/survey....
Ok, here's a picture for you: Combat Upgrade: Combat Schematic
Do you see your crafter profession on the chart? No? If you choose not to have a profession on that chart, then be prepared to run froma fight. This is as simple as it gets. If you start giving things to other professions then what's the point of having that profession on the chart?
Like IIscander, I too have an avatar who is a pure crafter, and I don't have any problem getting to my harvesters when I need to. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't get my butt kicked when I go to planets like Dathomir, but what would you expect from an adventure planet? Let me ask you, have you ever read the book "The Courtship of Princess Leia"? The book talks all about Dathomir, and let me just say that if you don't know how to use a gun you have no business being there. The planet is supposed to be instant death for any moron that travels out of sight from an outpost, and with the new upgrade you might find placing a harvester a little more challenging there. There was a time when most gamers liked a challenge, it's sad to see so many players don't feel that way anymore.
And truth be told there are alot of people who don't like the CURB, and it's a fact that most poeple don't like change once they get comfortable with something.....but I think we'll all agree that the game did need some type of change and now we have it. Gone are the days (hopefully) where everyone will choose profession X because it's the only one to use in PvP. Need an example? Jedi. I don't think I need to go into details there? Remember when CM was THE profession to have in PvP? I'll bet there isn't one combat profession that hasn't either been completely useless or seriously nerfed at one point in time. That is a broken system, and now we have a new one coming.
Want to wear armor? Go learn to fight and you can have one.
Thunderbyte
Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:14 am
#21
joinrdy wrote:
first off, i never said that a pure crafter should be uber, just be able to survive long enough to manage the harvesters, so that a reasonable priced product can be made and sold......this in no way effects me, i am a master combatant and crafter, and will have no problem doing what i need to do, but my prices will go up with the others, just cause you who say "kill the crafters", will allow me to stay in tune price wise with the crafters who will be forced to raise their prices, cause they wont be able to survive harvesting their own resources, and will be forced to buy the super inflated resources from the market...hugely increasing my profitt...thanks
I never accused you of saying crafters should be uber. As it is on TC, if you are very very carefull then you can still survey and manage harvesters even on the adventure planets. I know it's possible. I don't think prices are going to rise dramatically in the long run over this issue either, once people start getting used to the new system. And I never ever said "kill the crafters", but if some fool who doesn't want to learn to fire a pistol wants to run around dathomir.......
second....you still didn't answer how a crafter with no fighting skills could have any effect on the gcw, if they get more ham, or crafter only armor, or any kind of change that will allow them to harvest/survey......they still cant do damage, they still cant fight
Actually I did answer that question. My point was that you cannot give any combat abilities to non-combat players because it will take away from combat classes in the new system. You really should read that chart I linked to, every combat profession revolves around it. Some classes gain mostly defensive capabilities, and the players who take the time to level in those classes deserve those abilities. It is those abilities that keep them alive while they use thier offensive skills to kill the enemy, or keeps them alive while thier backup support kills the enemy. You are thinking that a pure crafter would want to be in that situation, what you haven't thought of is what if I'm stacking combat professions. I want a little bit more defence in my character stats, I could either pick up a defensive profession or a crafting profession? Some people would choose the crafting profession because they could make a little money on the side or something like that, either way it is against the chart that I linked to, and it takes away from those defensive professions.
resources are a huge part of a non crafters game as much as a crafters game, it's what you wear, eat, fight with, fly, ride, ect....if the crafters cant manage their own resources, then there will be less resources in the game , this means increases in prices to everyone, and mostly for the buyers of the end product wether it be a ship or a new gun or food, everyone will pay for the crafters not being able to make harvester runs and survey, just something to think about
I understand all about crafting, I've been a crafter since this game launched. I just plain dissagree with you that crafters should have armor without being certified for it through a combat profession. If they need armor to keep them alive, let them learn to fight and use it. I don't think this will be a problem for anyone who's serious about crafting, whether they're hard core players or casual players. The rules of the game have changed, but that doesn't make the game bad, in fact it's more fair then you realize. There is nothing stopping a player from learning to defend themself, it just comes at the cost of skill points. And for most people, even recon armor won't be neccessary if they are carefull.
Lol, I'm hoping you're not taking this post personally either, I don't mean to target you joinrdy as I'm sure there are many players who would agree with you. But from my point of view, and others, and the devs, the feature proposed in this thread probably would do more harm than good, and breaks the balance of the game. I totally respect the opinions of those who would dissagree with me, and /cheer for those people who make threads like this because they too are just trying to make this game better. I know noone's accused anyone of flaming, but I find it best to remind everyone why we are all posting here.
joinrdy
Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:40 am
#22
i haven't played tc yet, just going off what feed back i have got from those who have, the new system is hard to grind a new toon in combat and the little nothing creatures that exist outside of citys now present a challenge for the lesser skilled people.....i agree with this, there should be challlenge in the game, i remeber how fun it was before buffs and armor, when the game was new....
i have seen the combat chart and studied it to see if i wanted to switch my rifleman to another proffesion when respec hits, i still haven't decided on that one though....anyways a crafter doesnt fit into it, i know this....but as you have read in a previous post in this thread a crafter on a bike gets one hit incapped while surveying 9/10 times, his post is like the majority of feedback i have got from the cu so far, if it is true a crafter will incap 9/10 times, and clone 6 of those , prices will go up, you will eventually get to the harvester, but how many times will you have to try, or lay down 100k for protection (and thats if protection is even available)??
thunderbyte, i can see your issue with giving a crafter defensive abilites, but my proposal was to kill the abilities with weapon armed (armor doesn't work while holding a weapon), and then i stated i saw a flaw in this due tk's who fight without wepons,i am not crying nerf for my own toons benifits, but only to level the survivability of those who have dedicated their entire game to crafting stuff for others to use...stuff they cant use, to make game play more fun for others, i know several crafters who have established full crafting toons because they enjoy the chat side of the game and are truely unselfish people, i am game for not getting the "crafter only" armor, that was just an idea...but the crafter should get some help in survivng, yes they could agree to let go of some crafter skills to obtain a fighting skill, but that is not what their game is about, they shouldn't be forced to do it
why is it so hard to imagine a pure crafter getting more ham or some levels to help them out , they have spent all the skill points, they have played the game for x amount of time, they deserve a little help. the cu was designed because pvp'rs wanted mored challenge and moreinvolvement from others who say they would but.... they dont have a fighting skill that is any good, buffs are too strong, blah blah blah....all i'm saying is if it comes down to "wait and see" and "the crafters will be ok", then everyone will see the increase in prices,it will happen.
i dont take any of this personal, i just dont agree with the crafters getting the absolute short end of the stick, even if the crafters were to get the help they need to survive their harvester and survey runs, no one would notice it, becuase they play no part in the fighting aspect of the game, other then they crafted the guns and armor you are using to fight.
i can wait and see, but i think come october you will see a new kind of post about people crying about they cant afford to buy stuff from the crafters who are getting shafted now.
Kalano
Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:45 am
#23
Dath is not the real issue here.
Let me give some info on what i have experianced on TC the other day.
I started a brand new stinkin' rodian. I made him a brawler, ran just to the outside of town and decided to pick on a lvl 2 npc. I am only lvl 1 and a combatant here. I was hitting for 53 points max. The npc turns around and land a few laser bolt on my hide for 253 points of damage. Yes, lvl 2 npc.
Being a crafter and only having 1000 health and lvl 1, that is four hits by a lvl 2 mob before incap. Lvl 4 would hit for 500+ making it a 2 hit incap. Lvl 6+ will always be a 1 hit incap.
Now tell me, this is fair to crafters on even starter planets where even begining combatants can't survive anything one level above them.
joinrdy
Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:18 pm
#24
first off, i never said that a pure crafter should be uber, just be able to survive long enough to manage the harvesters, so that a reasonable priced product can be made and sold......this in no way effects me, i am a master combatant and crafter, and will have no problem doing what i need to do, but my prices will go up with the others, just cause you who say "kill the crafters", will allow me to stay in tune price wise with the crafters who will be forced to raise their prices, cause they wont be able to survive harvesting their own resources, and will be forced to buy the super inflated resources from the market...hugely increasing my profitt...thanks
second....you still didn't answer how a crafter with no fighting skills could have any effect on the gcw, if they get more ham, or crafter only armor, or any kind of change that will allow them to harvest/survey......they still cant do damage, they still cant fight
resources are a huge part of a non crafters game as much as a crafters game, it's what you wear, eat, fight with, fly, ride, ect....if the crafters cant manage their own resources, then there will be less resources in the game , this means increases in prices to everyone, and mostly for the buyers of the end product wether it be a ship or a new gun or food, everyone will pay for the crafters not being able to make harvester runs and survey, just something to think about
Aniedzielski
Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 pm
#25
Thunderbyte wrote:
Like IIscander, I too have an avatar who is a pure crafter, and I don't have any problem getting to my harvesters when I need to. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't get my butt kicked when I go to planets like Dathomir, but what would you expect from an adventure planet?
I agree that planets like Dathomir should not be safe and the creatures there are all high level. What I see a problem with is the fact that a Krettle or Sevort on Tat is going to be able to 1 hit incap me. Right now I can kill one in one shot because of the gun i have. After the CU not only will I not be able to use the weapon I have but all most all of the creatures that agro on starter planets will be at a higher level then me.
Nomhad Darkstar
Thunderbyte
Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:51 pm
#26
Aniedzielski wrote:
Thunderbyte wrote:
Like IIscander, I too have an avatar who is a pure crafter, and I don't have any problem getting to my harvesters when I need to. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't get my butt kicked when I go to planets like Dathomir, but what would you expect from an adventure planet?
I agree that planets like Dathomir should not be safe and the creatures there are all high level. What I see a problem with is the fact that a Krettle or Sevort on Tat is going to be able to 1 hit incap me. Right now I can kill one in one shot because of the gun i have. After the CU not only will I not be able to use the weapon I have but all most all of the creatures that agro on starter planets will be at a higher level then me.
Nomhad Darkstar
I've been playing the CURB and haven't had one kreetle one-hit incap me. Even with no skills at all I haven't seen this. They are no harder now then they were when I started SWG on day two with my CDEF pistol, although the fighting is a little different.