Shipwright Archive
Thread: So Rangers got their Health increased because they complained and crafters do not?
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Marsirion
Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:03 pm
#1
Qoute from the Ranger forum:
"The recent change announced in the IRC chat, Scout/Ranger boxes will contribute to health, is a direct result of Owen's tireless efforts. Most of y'all didn't see them, as he was posting in the Corresponent forum, fighting for both profession's virtual lives.
Without this change, we were basically dead meat walking. Kreetles could kick our asses.
With the change, we have a fighting chance now.
Thanks Owen. You kicked ass, took names, and presented quite a few arguments they couldn't get around.
JB
Ok. So Rangers get some love because of the correspondent and crafters get the shaft becausecrafter correspondents couldn't get our point across?
All this statement proves is if someone is able to put up a cogent, logical and non game breaking argument that crafters should be able to get some health increase they should be able to argue to the devs and it is possible to change things.
Geez, all the MMORPG blacksmiths and armorsmiths are always pictured as buffed specimens with bulging arms pounding that huge mallet in a hot forge. After all, even with technology us smiths should still be able to bend a puny iron bar with our bare hands due to those years strength training 
I would even accept a 25-50% increase in our health and level for an elite crafter just for the sake of survivability when doing harvester runs.
There are numerous posts in this and other forums as to why we should get soem sort of health/level increase but its useless as a correspondent has to talk to the devs in order to get our point across.
DesolateFate
Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:08 pm
#2
Well as pointed out, rangers in order to advance thier profession have to fight. Combat is part of thier professions. In fact Rangers get battle armor mods.
Yes crafters risk death tending to harvestors and factories outside cities. But they like entertainers are considered support professions, not combatants.
Yes crafters risk death tending to harvestors and factories outside cities. But they like entertainers are considered support professions, not combatants.
DarthScin
Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:34 pm
#3
I agree with Desolate.
We're crafters. We don't need additional health. Unless you're trying to beat durnis to death with your tool? =P
We're crafters. We don't need additional health. Unless you're trying to beat durnis to death with your tool? =P
joinrdy
Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:30 pm
#5
although my template doesn't share the same problem as the pure crafter i dont think they should die just cause they checked on a harvester, obviously the crafter (pure ones anyways) will have no affect on the GCW, why should they suffer????if not add health, then maybe a crafter only defensive armor, maybe have it's defense's abilities fail if the crafter arms a weapon, to make sure there are no exploits to this, crafters need some love in the update too......no reason to grief the crafter with a new system....if crafters have to hire protection, expect prices to rise dramatically...just a thought
Thunderbyte
Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:02 pm
#6
joinrdy wrote:
although my template doesn't share the same problem as the pure crafter i dont think they should die just cause they checked on a harvester, obviously the crafter (pure ones anyways) will have no affect on the GCW, why should they suffer????if not add health, then maybe a crafter only defensive armor, maybe have it's defense's abilities fail if the crafter arms a weapon, to make sure there are no exploits to this, crafters need some love in the update too......no reason to grief the crafter with a new system....if crafters have to hire protection, expect prices to rise dramatically...just a thought
Um.....no way!!!!!!
Crafters (a.k.a. people with no combat skills, I'm not talking to you half-and-half people) should never ever be able to use a weapon or piece of armor that a soldier cannot use. Not only would this be extremely unrealistic, but it would also be a slap to the face for the combat professions that are primarily defensive....
For example, if your idea was implemented, if I want to hold an enemy back in battle while my buddies pound them, I could be a Fencer or an artisan...one takes weeks to level, the other takes about 15 minutes (not counting surveying).
The new combat system is supposed to be a little more strict on what profession gets what abilities, etc etc, which by design gives each combat profession a unique role. It took the devs weeks (after CU hit test center) to decide to give ranger some love, and Ranger IS a combat profession. You need to fight (or be in dangerous places) to level it, and half of the profession revolves around harvesting animals (which you must KILL first)
Marsirion
Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:51 pm
#7
Problems arise like in the DWB where a level 1 crafter gets insta-capped because of the damage multiplier. He gets instacapped just doing surveys, going to his harvesters indeed, just travelling .
What happens to the combat professions when the support gets scarce or their prices get astronomical because the cost of doing business has now exponentially grown due to the overhead (paying bodyguards etc.) It may not be apparent immediately but a year from now if the trend continues then SWG will be just Star Wars Counterstrike.
We are talking about crafter community frustration in the sense that we are penalized in the CU when its not even intended for us. In the act of balancing combat, crafters have become imbalanced.
Oh and to the person that said that it would be highly unrealistic for a crafter to be able to use his own weapons: In real life gunsmiths are the most knowledgeable about the weapons they maintain and they have to know how to use it in order to test it to its limits and if it is working properly before giving it back to its owner. I'm not asking for weapon certs or armor certs though.
Just make it so that the extreme damage multipliers from even a level 5 rabid Durni vs a level 1 crafter would be survivable for the crafter. To do that either we get some health increases in our tree, albeit not as much as a combat profession, or introduce crafter specific vehicles or armor/PSG that will reduce our profile from aggressive mobs or mitigate the damage done to us. We can still get killed like before but the balance is that the risk is no greater than what we have in live right now.
It will just give us enough time to get healed by our bodyguards (like in the DWB) or enough time to get away in our vehicle.
Sar-larid
Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:40 am
#8
Well, how about they give the Rangers a little MORE extra(if they're in the giving mood for them now), and make it so that camouflage applied by them on a crafteris a LOT more effective? No aggro, no death.
Marsirion wrote:
Just make it so that the extreme damage multipliers from even a level 5 rabid Durni vs a level 1 crafter would be survivable for the crafter. To do that either we get some health increases in our tree, albeit not as much as a combat profession, or introduce crafter specific vehicles or armor/PSG that will reduce our profile from aggressive mobs or mitigate the damage done to us. We can still get killed like before but the balance is that the risk is no greater than what we have in live right now.
It will just give us enough time to get healed by our bodyguards (like in the DWB) or enough time to get away in our vehicle.
BonesDragon
Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:08 am
#9
In terms of having a "crafter-only" armor, there's some merit, but I agree, it shouldn't be forced into a little box of being non-combatant equipment. I'd say, if something like this were done, it should be a non-cert armor that anyone can use, no matter their profession, but the cost of having decent defense with it is that it has serious offensive penalties. Perhaps all attacks you do while wearing this armor are reduced by 50%. That'll keep the serious combatants from wanting to use it, but it'll be available for crafters, entertainers, etc, to use while travelling / surveying / tending harvesters.
EdOWar
Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:21 am
#10
Rather than more health or crafter armor, the solution is to give crafters more levels. It's all level based, so a little extra health or some crappy crafter armor won't do you much good anyways. I'm not saying a master WS should be level 54...but how about level 10 or 15 (with no health bonuses, no weapon certs and no armor certs)? At least that way we won't get incapped checking our factories or harvestors on starter planets.
If they are going to slap a level-based system on top of SWG, then they should at least give crafters a little love too.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
IIscandar
Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:28 am
#11
This is not really just a shipwright issue, but a non-combatant issue.
Here's the way I see it in my mind.
My shipwright is a master shipwright, master dancer. I've chosen to invest my skills in crafting and entertaining professions. Because of this choice, l am able to craft for a living. I can sit back in my house out of danger and craft. I can also go to a cantina or other various places and entertain. I cannot however, go out and fight because I have chosen not to invest points in that tree.
Now I spend 95% of my time crafting. As shipwrights, I'm sure you can understand. The other 5% I am going out to my harvestors. Since this is the only time I really get out of the shop I want some excitment. I've encountered all type of creatures standing around my harvestors. Large and small they can almost all knock me down. Most of the ones that get me, only incap me and when I get up I have a few seconds to get the heck outta there before they zero in on me again.
This is exciting! Why would I want to be totally safe running around with no risk? I don't live in candyland, I live on dantooine for a reason. I want danger! I want to have to figure out how to get the spawn of Kimo's away from my harvestors. Either by hiring a player or calling my my guild or maybe just leading them away.
When this galaxy first started, I was a musician. I died a lot and wasn't making the kind of credits I wanted. So I took on some combat skills. I learned how to fight with the rifle and then later the pike. I chose to learn how to fight and defend myself at the expense of being able to do other things. Eventually I had to give up musician because I wanted to also be able to heal and buff myself. These were choices I had to make.
If I want to be able to protect myself now, I'll have to give up master dancer and take on some trees of combat. My needs are about protection more than credits now, but still the choice is mine to make. If I want better protection I have to go out and get it. Until then I'll just have to keep my eyes open for danger. The most armor I wear right now is a helmet from time to time. I've been going around as a defensless crafter for months now. Maybe twice a week I find myself incapped and maybe once a month I get cloned. I'm out there almost every other day with no protection but a helmet if even that.
If others are having the same experience as me, (such as the devs) it will be very difficult to convince them that additional protection is required for the crafting professions.
Maybe I am the exception though. Do you all really die all the time without armor?
joinrdy
Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:08 am
#12
Thunderbyte wrote:
For example, if your idea was implemented, if I want to hold an enemy back in battle while my buddies pound them, I could be a Fencer or an artisan...one takes weeks to level, the other takes about 15 minutes (not counting surveying).
not trying to flame at all, but how does some one with no fighting abilities "hold them back"? I'm also not trying to imply that my idea is the greatest either, obviously there would be a problem with tk's who don't use weapons being able to exploit this idea too, but something should be done for the crafter, it's unrealistic to think that someone who is all about fighting would give up his/her game time to help some one harvest/survey....
EdOWar
Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:08 am
#13
IIscandar wrote:
This is not really just a shipwright issue, but a non-combatant issue.
Here's the way I see it in my mind.
My shipwright is a master shipwright, master dancer. I've chosen to invest my skills in crafting and entertaining professions. Because of this choice, l am able to craft for a living. I can sit back in my house out of danger and craft. I can also go to a cantina or other various places and entertain. I cannot however, go out and fight because I have chosen not to invest points in that tree.
Now I spend 95% of my time crafting. As shipwrights, I'm sure you can understand. The other 5% I am going out to my harvestors. Since this is the only time I really get out of the shop I want some excitment. I've encountered all type of creatures standing around my harvestors. Large and small they can almost all knock me down. Most of the ones that get me, only incap me and when I get up I have a few seconds to get the heck outta there before they zero in on me again.
This is exciting! Why would I want to be totally safe running around with no risk? I don't live in candyland, I live on dantooine for a reason. I want danger! I want to have to figure out how to get the spawn of Kimo's away from my harvestors. Either by hiring a player or calling my my guild or maybe just leading them away.
When this galaxy first started, I was a musician. I died a lot and wasn't making the kind of credits I wanted. So I took on some combat skills. I learned how to fight with the rifle and then later the pike. I chose to learn how to fight and defend myself at the expense of being able to do other things. Eventually I had to give up musician because I wanted to also be able to heal and buff myself. These were choices I had to make.
If I want to be able to protect myself now, I'll have to give up master dancer and take on some trees of combat. My needs are about protection more than credits now, but still the choice is mine to make. If I want better protection I have to go out and get it. Until then I'll just have to keep my eyes open for danger. The most armor I wear right now is a helmet from time to time. I've been going around as a defensless crafter for months now. Maybe twice a week I find myself incapped and maybe once a month I get cloned. I'm out there almost every other day with no protection but a helmet if even that.
If others are having the same experience as me, (such as the devs) it will be very difficult to convince them that additional protection is required for the crafting professions.
Maybe I am the exception though. Do you all really die all the time without armor?
In the current system, few creatures can one-hit incap you. This gives you time to get away. And I'm fine with that.
But in the new system, a creature that is only level 3 or 4 can one-hit incap a non-combatant, sometimes before we even know they're there. Armor won't help, extra health won't help...because the level difference is all that matters.
I don't think we'll be talking about getting incapped once in a while...we're talking about getting incapped almost every time you go to check your factories or harvestors--especially if you live on Lok or Dantooine. There's no excitement in that...only tedium and frustration.
If crafters could get just a few levels that would be enough I think. I'm not talking about crafters running around Dathomir, Yavin or Endor without fear. I'm just talking about enough levels so that when we go to check a harv or factory on Naboo, we don't get one-hit incapped by a level 4 creature. Just enough levels so that we have time to get away.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
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