Shipwright Archive
Thread: What CAN we, and what CAN'T we make schematics for?
Iggep wrote:
It is impossible to corner a market in this game. All one need do is look at the weaponsmiths and armorsmiths as an example. Sure, well stocked smiths have an initial advantage over new comers, but that's the case in all professions is it not? You don;t see any lack of new comers rolling into the weaponsmith or armorsmith trade do we? No. Why? Because there simply is no way to corner anything in the game. There is an unlimited amount of resources. There is no definable way to determine the span of clientele for a given product. There is no way to cutout competitors.
People stating that the lack of factory capacity for shipwright is a means toward enabling newcomers simply can't be grounded in reality. My ability to run off components in a factory has no bearing in anyone elses ability to take up the profession. If the shipwright profession is not to have factories for the stated reason, then how do you square that with the fact that armorsmiths and weaponsmiths have them? Better yet, how do you square that with the fact that architects have them? And architect is probably closer to our economic model than the other crafting professions. The logic simply doesn;t stand. Especially when you look at Droid Engineer and Tailor as tertiary examples.
No, we need factory support, and we deserve it. More to the point, our customers deserve it, and that's the bottom line.
Shall I look at the single weaponsmith, who I have been able to go to since September last year and still produces top of the line weapons? I've tried shopping around a few times, but in the end I find that shop is always in stock and always has the goods.
Tiaga wrote:
Iggep wrote:
It is impossible to corner a market in this game. All one need do is look at the weaponsmiths and armorsmiths as an example. Sure, well stocked smiths have an initial advantage over new comers, but that's the case in all professions is it not? You don;t see any lack of new comers rolling into the weaponsmith or armorsmith trade do we? No. Why? Because there simply is no way to corner anything in the game. There is an unlimited amount of resources. There is no definable way to determine the span of clientele for a given product. There is no way to cutout competitors.
People stating that the lack of factory capacity for shipwright is a means toward enabling newcomers simply can't be grounded in reality. My ability to run off components in a factory has no bearing in anyone elses ability to take up the profession. If the shipwright profession is not to have factories for the stated reason, then how do you square that with the fact that armorsmiths and weaponsmiths have them? Better yet, how do you square that with the fact that architects have them? And architect is probably closer to our economic model than the other crafting professions. The logic simply doesn;t stand. Especially when you look at Droid Engineer and Tailor as tertiary examples.
No, we need factory support, and we deserve it. More to the point, our customers deserve it, and that's the bottom line.
Shall I look at the single weaponsmith, who I have been able to go to since September last year and still produces top of the line weapons? I've tried shopping around a few times, but in the end I find that shop is always in stock and always has the goods.
Are you trying to say that your example of "no other weaponsmith in my whole galaxy can compete with this one guy", is illustrative? Are we actually to believe that? I've been playing since last July, and I think I know something about this game. I've been crafting professions, then gave them up to be a combat profession. Then gave them up and became something else. You simply can not expect anyone in their right mind to believe that no other weaponsmith in your entire galaxy can compete with any other weaponsmith, because it's been shown to be false over and over again. You ignore the fact that if what you say were true, no one else would bother to become a weaponsmith in the first place. It's impossible to become a monopoly in this game, because a basic tenet of monopolies is control of the resources involoved in your field. We all know that's not possible in this case. It's also impossible to impose price controls in this game.
Come on people, offer REAL and substantice, factualy reasons based on logic for this ridiculous policy. Not innuendo and insinuation.
But ships aren't like weapons or armor. Not only do components not decay, but loot is comparable to crafted components, whereas most looted weapons are comparable to CDEF. There's a huge demand now because a lot of people are just starting out. But in awhile, there will probably not be so huge a demand as more loot and crafted items get into circulation. A lot of people would do huge runs of components, and if demand takes a nosedive... Well, you've heard the laws of supply and demand? You'd end up with huge supply and little demand.
For example, I am currently using a z95 to do tier 2 with because I feel the longprobe turns like a boat. Its just not my style. But I decided to put in some heavy armor and a hard hitting weapon. That leaves me no room to put in a booster. Its my personal playstyle and choice. It would be impossible to mass produce all the components to a level that everyone could customize their ship to their playstyle. That is unless you want space to be like the ground game and have the negatives to each component mean nothing. I take this as a view of what is going to happen with HAM and the ground game come the combat balance.
Iggep wrote:
If I were to join the armorsmith trade (and I have been a master armorsmith way back), I'd treat it exactly as I have treated this run in shipwright. I don;t whine about those with more resources than I. I get what I need one way or the other, and I build my product for my customer. That's how success is created. Not through whining.
Lecivius wrote:
As for re deeding, Pre-placed Equipment factories did not recognize Shipwright schematics. The factory had to be re-deeded to recognize the new schematics. Once a factory is placed Post JTL, you can make runs of munitions, subcomponents, and make up items.
This is going to be a pain in the arse for me. Yes, I'm one of those "Evil" people with Lot Swaps. (only way to do well in business when you have an Architect/Artisan/Weaponsmith/Resource vendors, etc., but that whole arguement is for another thread)
Now I have to go figure out who owns all "my" factories and re-dded.
Ugh...
Iggep wrote:
It is impossible to corner a market in this game. All one need do is look at the weaponsmiths and armorsmiths as an example. Sure, well stocked smiths have an initial advantage over new comers, but that's the case in all professions is it not? You don;t see any lack of new comers rolling into the weaponsmith or armorsmith trade do we? No. Why? Because there simply is no way to corner anything in the game. There is an unlimited amount of resources. There is no definable way to determine the span of clientele for a given product. There is no way to cutout competitors.
People stating that the lack of factory capacity for shipwright is a means toward enabling newcomers simply can't be grounded in reality. My ability to run off components in a factory has no bearing in anyone elses ability to take up the profession. If the shipwright profession is not to have factories for the stated reason, then how do you square that with the fact that armorsmiths and weaponsmiths have them? Better yet, how do you square that with the fact that architects have them? And architect is probably closer to our economic model than the other crafting professions. The logic simply doesn;t stand. Especially when you look at Droid Engineer and Tailor as tertiary examples.
No, we need factory support, and we deserve it. More to the point, our customers deserve it, and that's the bottom line.
Iggep wrote:
It is impossible to corner a market in this game. All one need do is look at the weaponsmiths and armorsmiths as an example. Sure, well stocked smiths have an initial advantage over new comers, but that's the case in all professions is it not? You don;t see any lack of new comers rolling into the weaponsmith or armorsmith trade do we? No. Why? Because there simply is no way to corner anything in the game. There is an unlimited amount of resources. There is no definable way to determine the span of clientele for a given product. There is no way to cutout competitors.
That's a pretty bold statement and I guess your experiences are your own - but mine tell me that to try and get in on armorsmithing would pretty much be financial suicide. Why? Because the top two or three on my server have traded lots all over the galaxy, have already made credits in the billions, have the liquidity to buy experience enhancing crafting suits that cost upward of 75 million credits and can simply outcraft me from the get go.
"Can" I get in on armorsmith and probably scratch around the pickings by undercutting price and what not? Probably. Could I really reasonably expect to 'compete' with the behemoths of my server given their resources and passion? Probably not. I could tinker around the edges. Part of their advantage lies solely in the fact that these guys can run 10-20 or more factories on one character because of lot trades, freeing them up to place storage houses and merchant tents and in some cases, miners if they aren't lot traded also.
No offence, but you argument of unlimited resources = unlimited sales is spurious at best.
People stating that the lack of factory capacity for shipwright is a means toward enabling newcomers simply can't be grounded in reality. My ability to run off components in a factory has no bearing in anyone elses ability to take up the profession. If the shipwright profession is not to have factories for the stated reason, then how do you square that with the fact that armorsmiths and weaponsmiths have them? Better yet, how do you square that with the fact that architects have them? And architect is probably closer to our economic model than the other crafting professions. The logic simply doesn;t stand. Especially when you look at Droid Engineer and Tailor as tertiary examples.
I agree. It's not a means towards enabling newcomers - it's a means towards enabling equitable crafting between all crafters. The lack of ability to run of parts in a factory means that you can't simply garner a whole bunch of accounts/lots, crank out crap by the boatload and swamp the market using KMart like volume/profit margins to price out everyone else.
Possibly unintended but also a good thing in my (probably hated) opinion is that It also works to stop the Sunday cowboys who want the best of both worlds but fighting all night and whipping off the odd chassis. It forces (and I know people won't appreciate this) shipwright to be a profession for the real crafters - those that love the cut and thrust of creating and combining. For those folks, shipwright is ideal. If you simply want to mass produce a product, take up DE. Crank out all the stuff you want to. If you want a profession that requires careful attention to detail, the ability to get dirty with the crafting process, the interaction with a customer base and to really be respected as a 'crafter', then take up shipwright. Honestly, it's not that hard to create this stuff and stack your vendor and still have plenty of time to whizz through space shooting the crap out of things. If your primary focus is combat and not crafting, then what does it matter what crafting profession you want? Get something easy like architect where you can grind quick, sell high and automate factory runs.
And I square it with the fact that other professions have factories for two reasons:
1. The above argument that this is a crafter's profession and not a filler cashcow profession for fighterjocks, and
2. The devs wised up. They also made master via xp and not ap. Why? Because it makes more sense in a game that is a year older now. Just because they borked the original way of doing things does not mean they are bound to do it that way forever and ever and ever. I would not be surprised to see other professions lose the AP requirement for master and see it swapped out for XP based advancement. Obviously, removing factories from existing professions would be untenable (As much as I would actually like to see it done in some cases) but it doesn't mean they cannot experiment with new models going forward. I think we are seeing a new model and I think it will work well.
Finally, for what it's worth, any tailor worth their salt knows that it's well and good to create metal fasteners in a crate from a factory (partly because their schematics FORCE them to use one - ours don't) but they also know that they sell via custom assembly at order time. They are a better example of how and why our profession doesn't 'need' factories moreso than they are an argument of why we do.
No, we need factory support, and we deserve it. More to the point, our customers deserve it, and that's the bottom line.
When does the collection plate come because I can see the sermon has begun already... Nice rhetoric though. Throw in a 'Truth, Justice and the American Way" and it would be 'super.'