Shipwright Archive
Thread: Shipwright fundamental flaw
pgm2b2
Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:11 pm
#14
Last engine i crafted was lvl7, speed 90.3 Pitch 57 RY 51, which is pretty good for a crafted engine but not that great compared to some loot ones i have seen
And yes i do know what attribute to choose in crafting.
And yes the bars will be green because I have been collecting very good resource for months, probably since august in anticipation of JTL.
If you consider it moaning, thats your call, I thought the orginal post was a bit tongue in cheek.
As long as I pay for this game I feel it ismyduty to point out potential flaws, don't you think.
Perhaps you should read the original post again just to ensure you understand what was written.
For those who have agreed, I thank you
Loot stuff is better than crafted stuff simple as that.
P.S. this is not the only SWG shipwright forum, there are others out there for a more informed look at things without the flame merchants jumping on your post
Message Edited by pgm2b2 on 12-11-2004 06:18 AM
Kharn_JB
Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:00 am
#15
I don't mind REd loot being better than crafted loot so long as it's not impossible to craft a decent component otherwise (unlike engines and capacitors which are a bit underpowered when player made). Remember, us shipwrights are the ones that do all of the REing, and you need the appropriate level shipwright skill to RE the looted parts. In fact, I prefer the RE system with high component drop rates, even if they're on average worse than shipwright crafted components. What I enjoy most about shipwright is the REing, having to sort through loot and take the best of the best to make a much better component, and sometimes being pleasently surprised by finding a kuat disk. I don't mind the crafting side either, but I find it much more blandlike every other crafting profession.
Marzuk147
Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:13 am
#16
"I'm so sick of this trian of thought...and all the whinning that goes with it!
If you dont like SW QUIT ! Go make cookie cutter composite or weps for the ground game.
Step aside and let the folks who offer consrtuctive thoughts post. (not that its me)
Some of us like SW and what do ya know...Some of us like RE'n.
Yet another useless thread to clutter the forums....."
No one is asking for a cookie cutter god mode set of components, but the difference between many REd items and what can be crafted, borders on absurd. So much so that I have a master shipwright and wouldnt use anything I can make but armor panels and chassis practically.
Im all for REing, and all for loot - trust me thats my biggest thrill with JTL, but the huge amount of resources needed to make a quality component which doesnt even come close to a looted and REd component is a big issue IMO. If I take 15,000 odd high quality resources, Id expect to be able to at least turn out something that is at least close to a decent but not uber REd item.
Also, be aware that SEVERAL things dont make sense at all.
For example, average damage is the most important on weapons, so why is it that the min damage and the max damage extra components dont change average damage? If one gives -20 max and +20 min... the net effect is zero. I could be wrong on this as Im a bit new to shipwright, but thats how I see it.
How about armor panels that the mass upgrade is useless, because you are better off crafting a lower teir with an armor upgrade, for less mass overall?
What about the best blaster you can make doesnt compare with one that is REd that is .75 to armor and sheilds? That isnt a small difference, thats a HUGE difference when you are talking about double the damage of a crafted weapon of the same teir.
There are many issues with SW, and a good deal of them have NOTHING to do with composite in space.
If you dont like SW QUIT ! Go make cookie cutter composite or weps for the ground game.
Step aside and let the folks who offer consrtuctive thoughts post. (not that its me)
Some of us like SW and what do ya know...Some of us like RE'n.
Yet another useless thread to clutter the forums....."
No one is asking for a cookie cutter god mode set of components, but the difference between many REd items and what can be crafted, borders on absurd. So much so that I have a master shipwright and wouldnt use anything I can make but armor panels and chassis practically.
Im all for REing, and all for loot - trust me thats my biggest thrill with JTL, but the huge amount of resources needed to make a quality component which doesnt even come close to a looted and REd component is a big issue IMO. If I take 15,000 odd high quality resources, Id expect to be able to at least turn out something that is at least close to a decent but not uber REd item.
Also, be aware that SEVERAL things dont make sense at all.
For example, average damage is the most important on weapons, so why is it that the min damage and the max damage extra components dont change average damage? If one gives -20 max and +20 min... the net effect is zero. I could be wrong on this as Im a bit new to shipwright, but thats how I see it.
How about armor panels that the mass upgrade is useless, because you are better off crafting a lower teir with an armor upgrade, for less mass overall?
What about the best blaster you can make doesnt compare with one that is REd that is .75 to armor and sheilds? That isnt a small difference, thats a HUGE difference when you are talking about double the damage of a crafted weapon of the same teir.
There are many issues with SW, and a good deal of them have NOTHING to do with composite in space.
Kharn_JB
Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:19 am
#17
I agree wholely thata great number oflootedcomponents are better than crafted ones. I believe that crafted components should all be craftable, with decent resources, to be par with the more decent looted parts. I also believe however that REd loot should be slightly better than crafted loot, and that the loot drop rate should go back to what it was originally. Though, I doubt that would ever happen since SOE has a nerf mentality.
Message Edited by Kharn_JB on 12-10-2004 03:19 PM
TomoRainer
Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:29 am
#18
Good lord man, speaking as a smuggler, you have no idea how badly I want to kill you. Mocking our state of constant persecution like that.
As a shipwright, I mostly agree with you.
As a shipwright, I mostly agree with you.
GadonThek
Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:52 am
#19
Mirkwoods wrote:Honestly, I would say that I also am a bit disappointed with the level of crafted parts. You can make better crafted parts sometimes, but you have to have really good resources to do it, and even then, it doesn't always work.I enjoy reverse engineering, it's sort of like playing a slot machine... but I'm not sure that reverse engineering should feel like palying a slot machine. Hell, it's more like playing a slot machine than the stupid slot machine type games in the hotels.As far as I'm concerned, we should either be able to fairly easily make better parts then the looted ones, or they should let us make say an engine and reverse engineer that engine with looted parts to make it have other good stats like the R-E'd ones do. Why do they only let us make the odd numbered certification levels? Am I wrong about that? If so, I have no idea how to make the evens.Mirkwoods tries to remember to expect a great deal of illogic whenever something new is introduced in this game.Overall, I'd say this. If you think that they Ship Wright profession is bad... Just look at how long those Smugglers have been ignored and continually screwed over. Since I've never been a Smuggler, the situation is a bit funny to me, but I understand why they are so pissed.And believe this, we are getting looked at for fixes long before the smugglers do. Don't worry, be happy.
Why? Why should we have the right to utterly destroy the loot market and the fun it represents? Oh wait, I know why, you want more credits right?
Look, we need MINOR TWEAKS, not the destruction of loot. SOE have done a good thing with space, they have managed to intigrate loot you can really use AND crafted equipment on a reasonably comparitive level, unlike the ground game where you either loot a piece of crap or, once in a blue moon, someone loots a totally overpowering weapon/armour set.
Seriously, this is one Shipwright who's going to be standing up for the rights of the Pilots as well, take your greed elsewhere.
Diorchas
Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:10 am
#20
It's not greed to want your profession to be viable.
It's nice that we can make better shields than RE shields, but what about capacitors, engines, boosters and weaponry? All four of those (arguably some of the most important) can be RE'ed for MUCH better equipment than you can craft.
SW's should be able to beat all but the most exceptional RE'ed parts. Anything less hamstrings the profession terribly.
Perhaps the devs should consider making RE'ed loot craftable. Inject the standard "create a schematic" choice whenever a component is RE'ed. That way loot would still be worth something and SWs could still take those items and craft improvements upon them.
The idea about being able to RE our own creations is sort of silly. We already know how our items are made... what good would REing them do?
GadonThek
Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:59 am
#21
Diorchas wrote:It's not greed to want your profession to be viable.It's nice that we can make better shields than RE shields, but what about capacitors, engines, boosters and weaponry? All four of those (arguably some of the most important) can be RE'ed for MUCH better equipment than you can craft.SW's should be able to beat all but the most exceptional RE'ed parts. Anything less hamstrings the profession terribly.Perhaps the devs should consider making RE'ed loot craftable. Inject the standard "create a schematic" choice whenever a component is RE'ed. That way loot would still be worth something and SWs could still take those items and craft improvements upon them.The idea about being able to RE our own creations is sort of silly. We already know how our items are made... what good would REing them do?
Why is Shipwright not viable? Im going to keep saying this until people stop mpoaning and look at the facts:
Engines - We need ONE change, make YPR a single experimentation bar, that allows us to make engines with massive speed and respectable YPR, or engines with pretty good speed and great YPR. Nerfing loot engines AGAIN is not the answer.
Capacitors and Boosters - You wont find any argument from me here, crafted Caps and Boosters need to be brought up a few pegs, but again, nerfing looted versions is NOT the answer.
Weapons - I keep seeing this, how many people have posted stats on amazing weapons, 20? 30? Thats NOTHING, less than 1% of the players in the game. It takes a huge amount of effort to aquire a really, really good RE weapon, and the mass on most of them is far bigger than a crafted item of comparible level. An amazing weapon with 50k mass isnt that useful, considering you get, maybe, an extra 300 max damage and an extra .1 vs shields/armour, not when I can get crafted at 31k mass, and usually lower EPS too.
Im not arguing against changing Shipwright to make it better, Im arguing against the group of Shipwrights who seem to think that if they scream loud enough, SOE will destroy space loot for them so they can rake in the credits.
Diorchas
Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:20 am
#22
You'll find, if you reread my post, Gadon, that nowhere did I argue for the nerfing of loot. I want only to make the system work in such a way that crafters cannot possibly be excluded. They need to either be able to make better/equal parts on their own or they need to be an indispensible link in the loot chain (and by this I mean that pilots need an obvious and compelling reason to turn over their loot to a SW rather than just sticking it in their chassis).
I am not arguing that loot rates need to be cut, that loot needs to be powered down or that loot should not be equipable without REing. What I am arguing is that SWs should ALWAYS have a way of equaling or exceeding the stats of a looted component. Anything less damages the profession.
On other posts I've been making the case for SWs having the option of creating a schematic from RE rather than a prototype. I think that would make everyone happy, looters/pilots included.
Mirkwoods
Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:07 am
#23
Yeah, the reverse engineering our own parts idea is a bit silly, but I was just trying too think of a way to balance things out a bit.
I would contend that you should notdismiss "silly" ideas in this game. They seem to be the first ideas that Devs gravitate towards.
I have said this before and I will again. If Spock tried to play this game, the pure lack of logic would make his head explode.
To all the smugglers. I did not mean to offend you in any way. I am saying more or less that at the point you are at now, you might as well laugh about it, because otherwise, you'll probably go insane. The only area that I would say has been neglected even close to how much the smugglers have is role players, and at least they got some new emotes to play with when JTL came out. PLEASE SWG PROGRAMMERS - try to make our avatars stop sliding out of our chairs. When this happened to me the first time I played the game, I thought, well, this will be fixed before the week is over. LOL!
I don't hate being a shipwright, it just frustrates me. If I look at it as a whole though, I have to say that every profession that I've mastered has frustrated me to one degree or another. Just keep sending your money, and praying if you do that sort of thing.
Mirkwoods puts five engines in the reverse engineering tool and pulls the arm on the side... dang it, no kuat fragment again!
GadonThek
Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:10 am
#24
Diorchas wrote:You'll find, if you reread my post, Gadon, that nowhere did I argue for the nerfing of loot. I want only to make the system work in such a way that crafters cannot possibly be excluded. They need to either be able to make better/equal parts on their own or they need to be an indispensible link in the loot chain (and by this I mean that pilots need an obvious and compelling reason to turn over their loot to a SW rather than just sticking it in their chassis).I am not arguing that loot rates need to be cut, that loot needs to be powered down or that loot should not be equipable without REing. What I am arguing is that SWs should ALWAYS have a way of equaling or exceeding the stats of a looted component. Anything less damages the profession.On other posts I've been making the case for SWs having the option of creating a schematic from RE rather than a prototype. I think that would make everyone happy, looters/pilots included.
My last comment wasnt aimed at you mate, I was just clarifying why I said what I said. I think we're both reading from the same page.
Your schematic idea is good, but it would have to be limited to prevent the market becoming flooded with amazing componants, perhaps you get a 5-use schematic that cant be used to create others, although I really prefer RE as it is now, everyone get a unique componant.
A few minor changes to Shipwright and the way experimentation works is all thats needed to put us on a par with the good loot, beyond that I really dont see the need for any big revamps.
My point remains though, there is a vocal group of Shipwrights who just want loot nerfed, period. They dont care what quality Shipwright componants are, providing they're the only option pilots have, they just want a 100% share of the cash from space, and they do need to be stopped, SOE have a poor track record when it comes from sorting the wheat from the chaff in the community ideas department.
Diorchas
Sat Dec 11, 2004 10:32 am
#25
The more I think about it the more a limited-use schematic makes more sense. I think you're right... it would have to be that way.
But I still think it's a feasible, widely acceptable idea.
I don't have any more patience with the wild-eyed set than you do. I'd rather push workable alternatives than knee-jerk overreactions.
Insidius
Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:10 am
#26
Ackew wrote:Actually gadon DOES know what he is talking about with the exception of capactors i have YET to see ANY space loot thats better than something i can craft. I have seen hundreds geting on to thousands of loot parts too.
pgm2b2 wrote:And are they reverse engineered loot parts a lvl10 gives a 10% bonus?*buzzer*Only press the buzzer if you know what your talking about, standard gameshow rules
Obviously you haven't seen my cert lvl 4, 93 speed, YPR 70+, 3k mass engines I looted then.
Or my 2553 shields with a 15.63 recharge. Or my 4100 damage blaster.
Anyhow, all this loot was REALLY rare, and when it comes to drop rates like this, I think the ratio is spot on. Certain loot SHOULD be better than crafted parts. If they weren't, I'd have virtually no reason to fly anymore, god knows PvP isn't viable when you're the only guy in Deep Space.