Shipwright Archive
Thread: CDEF weapons in space
From a practical standpoint, one would think that certain weapons (whether cannonical in reference or created specifically for SWG) would have been exceedingly common. Generally, the availability of such weapons would be attributed to the fact that they are less costly to produce and thus, buy.
What I find interesting here is that this is simply not the case in SWG at all in its current incarnation. You hardly see CDEF or even DL44's excpet in the hands of complete newbie's because, well, they're lower tier weapons. Never mind the fact that there should (from a realism standpoint) be more of these weapons in circulation than just about any other.
Of course, you can extend that same analogy to just about any weapon type you want, but I like pistols and you get the point I'm sure. ;-)
Additionally, there was a clause in one of the old designs for the Combat Balance (and yes, at that time it was 'Balance' - this was nearly a full year ago) that was going to address this by introducing a full range of every weapon type at every certification level - including master. I remember this because I was excited by it - getting to be a master pistoleer AND use a DL44... that didn't SUCK?! RIGHT ON!
Now, I have no idea if this is still in the plans for the Combat Upgrade, but that's really not the point. The point is, we have an opportunity to do something right now that will prevent this exact same thing from happening in space!
As it stands, I've yet to hyper into Kessel or Deep Space because, well, I've yet to reach a point in my piloting career wherein I can outfit my ship with the level of gear I know I'll need in order to stay competitive.
Having qualified that (and feel free to correct me if I'm worng) I simply can't imagine very many players warping into a PvP zone in a novice level (not 'starter - novice level) ship.
This bothers me for two reasons.
1) From a sheer standpoint of realism and pragmatism, the novice level ships (TIE light duty, Scyk and Z-95) represent the least in terms of resources, time invested and cost to the buyer.
Because of this, it seems to me that you'd be seeing more of these types of fighters than any others in the space lanes - but that will most assuredly not be the case... if my suspicions are correct, it already isn't.
2) It places an arbitrary and unecessary limitation on a player's choice of what craft to fly and what best suits there play style. It essentially breaks down to a war, not of skill, but of who has the better ship and equipment loadout.
Ships and equipment should, no doubt, play a role in deciding the outcome of a confrontation, but not to the extent to which it would between, say, a Z-95 and a TIE Opressor.
What needs to be done? IMO the player crafted versions of the starter ships need a mass increase - nothing major mind you, just bump them to about 20-25K mass.
Why? Because this increase would allow players to, at the very least outfit these ships with 'decent' shields and weapons that will allow them to remain competitive!
You may be asking yourself, "why would anyone want to fly these ships?"
I'll tell you - for one they represent the most manuverable ships in the game (for the most part) with faster roll and yaw potential than any of the higher tier ships. Speaking as a 'fast and light' kind of guy myself, the handling variables of these ships are highly desirable - though the current mass restrictions make them entirely impractical.
Additionally, making the novice tier (player crafted) ships slightly more viable could also create an additonal sink/ pool affect in the economy. No doubt, the wealthier pplayer/ characters might start using these as 'disposable' fighters, which in essence is what they are - to a degree.
I have one last bone to pick and then I'll quit - and this one is Privateer specific and focuses on (my obvious favorite ship) the Hutt Scyk.
Basically, it seems as though Rebels get higher overall mass, Imperials get better overall handling, and Privateers are somewhere in the middle (relax - that's just how I see it - I didn't say it was gospel =P )
That said, Privateers go through the same progression twice - light, medium and then heavy. That much is fine. What irks me is that while I have two viable choices between medium fighters and even heavies (yes, some players actually dig the Kimo), there's only 1 viable option for a light fighter - and it sure as heck isn't the Scyk.
Pardon me, but that bites!
I'll grant you that it's primarily aesthetic (barring those all important handling variables - which makes it more than an aesthetic argument) but I don't WANT a Blacksun Light fighter - I want a Scyk!
Lastly - do we, as privateers even HAVE a 1.0 speed modifer ship? I don't think we do - in fact, I'm fairly certain that the speed modifier for the Scyk is the same as the Dune Lizard (0.95) which is a grave injustice to a ship which equates to an engine with a seat.
So there you have it - give us tougher novice level ships. Give us more variety in a way that's viable and efficient. Up the mass on novice ships to 20 - 25K. Please don't let these ships become the CDEF weapons of space. =\
ShadowHonor wrote:
(Do you know how embarrassing it is to have a Z-95 Headhunter, tier 4 or 5, fly circles around you fast enough that it takes out your FORWARD shields and destroys you?)
Arkenor wrote:
It would be nice if there were Advanced versions of some of the early ships that look the same, but had a significantly higher mass. The certifications for these would be higher up the tree. An advanced Z95 and Scyk with similar stats to the TIE/in would be fine by me.
Message Edited by TurboSith on 11-12-2004 02:28 PM
That being said, I do kind of like the idea of Scyks/Z-95s/Light TIEs having some use past tier 1 or 2. 20K mass might do the trick, but you'd need to think about how this would relate to other ships. The standard TIE Fighter, for instance, has 20K mass right now, but takes three times the resources of the Light TIE. How would you balance this? Make advanced tier zero ships take more resources? That's a possible solution, but the more I think about it, the more it seems each faction has at least one craft that fills the recon/swift assault role.
If there's a good way to deal with balancing, though, I'd say it's worth some consideration.
Not just because the Z-95 is a very manuerverable ship, but because I like to have options regarding what I am going to go flying around in and have those options be viable throughout my pilot career.
As it stands now, I am likely going to continue flying the Y-Wing or Longprobe well into Mastering the profession, because few people will continue to do so and it does have enough mass to be useful in large space combat missions going after the Star Destroyer and similar. Especially since it is more manuerverable then the B-Wing, from what I understand.
However, it would be nice to see some more use out of the Z-95.
However, it would be nice to see some more use out of the Z-95.
Kassuff wrote:
However, it would be nice to see some more use out of the Z-95.How about as a target drone?
They already act as target drones, if you count NPC piloted Z-95's.
TurboSith wrote:
Arkenor wrote:
It would be nice if there were Advanced versions of some of the early ships that look the same, but had a significantly higher mass. The certifications for these would be higher up the tree. An advanced Z95 and Scyk with similar stats to the TIE/in would be fine by me.
i have a feeling that we will see this in time... because if they dont... it will be a bunch of bwings and oppressors going at it in pvp... and how is that any different then everyone in compostite with a DoT pike... hopefully they implement.. i have faith
Message Edited by TurboSith on 11-12-2004 02:28 PM
BadKarma777 wrote:
From a practical standpoint, one would think that certain weapons (whether cannonical in reference or created specifically for SWG) would have been exceedingly common. Generally, the availability of such weapons would be attributed to the fact that they are less costly to produce and thus, buy.
What I find interesting here is that this is simply not the case in SWG at all in its current incarnation. You hardly see CDEF or even DL44's excpet in the hands of complete newbie's because, well, they're lower tier weapons. Never mind the fact that there should (from a realism standpoint) be more of these weapons in circulation than just about any other.
Wouldn't SWG players regard themselves as, above the average joe blow in the SW universe? We get missions from key movie characters, we can travel to anywhere at any time in the SWG universe, we can be whatever profession we desire, we can even become Jedi. None of us are stuck on a moisture farm helping out for a few measly credits to survive, or patrolling some backwater starport on the lookout for suspicious behaviour, because some superior told us to. To take your analogy, wouldn't a master pistoleer (with the ability to make as many credits as desired, I might add) want to use the best possible pistols? Why would they limit themselves to civilian grade CDEFs just because they are massed produced and cheap? BTW you can get a pretty mean DL44 made in this game, which would be useful if99% ofmobs didn't have some immunity to energy. This is a mob-protection issuerather then the DL44 being crap.
Of course, you can extend that same analogy to just about any weapon type you want, but I like pistols and you get the point I'm sure. ;-)
Additionally, there was a clause in one of the old designs for the Combat Balance (and yes, at that time it was 'Balance' - this was nearly a full year ago) that was going to address this by introducing a full range of every weapon type at every certification level - including master. I remember this because I was excited by it - getting to be a master pistoleer AND use a DL44... that didn't SUCK?! RIGHT ON!
Now, I have no idea if this is still in the plans for the Combat Upgrade, but that's really not the point. The point is, we have an opportunity to do something right now that will prevent this exact same thing from happening in space!
With all the database limitation we have been witnessing, this idea has probably been scrapped. Imagine everything in the game having 3 levels to it (beginner, intermediate, expert) I think this would become a crafters nightmare myself. It also doesn't necessarily solve the usefulness of early skills after masteringproblem. An expert CDEF pistol may still be garbage compared to a Novice FWG5, who knows?
As it stands, I've yet to hyper into Kessel or Deep Space because, well, I've yet to reach a point in my piloting career wherein I can outfit my ship with the level of gear I know I'll need in order to stay competitive.
Having qualified that (and feel free to correct me if I'm worng) I simply can't imagine very many players warping into a PvP zone in a novice level (not 'starter - novice level) ship.
This bothers me for two reasons.
1) From a sheer standpoint of realism and pragmatism, the novice level ships (TIE light duty, Scyk and Z-95) represent the least in terms of resources, time invested and cost to the buyer.
Because of this, it seems to me that you'd be seeing more of these types of fighters than any others in the space lanes - but that will most assuredly not be the case... if my suspicions are correct, it already isn't.
You do... JTL simulates this by having NPCs fly the starter ships in the most trafficed ofzones (Naboo/Rori, Corellia/Talus, Tatooine). Again this analogy relates to your Pistoleer example; why would a master pilot want to fly around in a training-level ship? It's kind of like being a multi-millionaire, but choosing to live in someone's basement and driving around in somejunk car. I doubt many in the real world would choose that lifestyle if they had the choice.
2) It places an arbitrary and unecessary limitation on a player's choice of what craft to fly and what best suits there play style. It essentially breaks down to a war, not of skill, but of who has the better ship and equipment loadout.
Ships and equipment should, no doubt, play a role in deciding the outcome of a confrontation, but not to the extent to which it would between, say, a Z-95 and a TIE Opressor.
Yes indeed it should.
Z-95: Training ship used by the Rebel Alliance to familiarize new pilots with spaceflight and starfighter controls.
TIE Oppressor: Is being deployed in limited numbers among selected units of the Imperial starfighter cadre elite.
Let's assume by year's end most of us are Master Pilots and flying around in elite craft. There will still be more Tier I and II NPCs spawned in starter ships then Master PCs in high end ships at any given time. I again view this as being above the average joe blow in the SW universe.
What needs to be done? IMO the player crafted versions of the starter ships need a mass increase - nothing major mind you, just bump them to about 20-25K mass.
Why? Because this increase would allow players to, at the very least outfit these ships with 'decent' shields and weapons that will allow them to remain competitive!
I believe things are fairly balanced as it is now (except for privateer ships which have been addressed in pub 11.2 on TC). Let's take a TIE Light Duty. If you bump it up to 25K mass, what would you do with the TIE Fighter? Raise it mass, then bump up the mass for the TIE/In, Interceptor &Advanced respectively? Well then, would the Advanced be almost as useful if not more then the Oppressor (less mass but more maneuverable)? How would the bumped up TIEs relate to the light and medium ships of the Rebels and Privateer? Would they be more maneuverableand have more Mass then the Reb and Privateer ships of similar class? If so what would you do next? Raise the mass of the reb and privateer ships? or reduce the maneuverability of the TIEs to bring them inline? But then they would be less like the cannonical idealism of TIEs, 'being quick and expendable'.
I'm sorry but there is just so much more to it then saying "IMO the player crafted versions of the starter ships need a mass increase - nothing major mind you, just bump them to about 20-25K mass."
You may be asking yourself, "why would anyone want to fly these ships?"
I'll tell you - for one they represent the most manuverable ships in the game (for the most part) with faster roll and yaw potential than any of the higher tier ships. Speaking as a 'fast and light' kind of guy myself, the handling variables of these ships are highly desirable - though the current mass restrictions make them entirely impractical.
Additionally, making the novice tier (player crafted) ships slightly more viable could also create an additonal sink/ pool affect in the economy. No doubt, the wealthier pplayer/ characters might start using these as 'disposable' fighters, which in essence is what they are - to a degree.
Really? I don't see that happening. Currently you have pilots who buy the starter chassis, then they pretty much by a chassis for each Tier in there pilot trees (except Privateer, since their ships need a balance as mentioned above). This in turn also means a higher cost/sink to pay the Chassis Builder. If you make the starter chassis too viable then why would a sane pilot bother with the other chassis'? "Well I can do Tier I - III in my Z-95, no point in getting the Y-Wings or X-Wing". In terms of decay every chassis is equal regardless of Tier or mass. Each chassis after 6 'blow ups' is at 50% of original hitpoints and after 43 is at 1%HP. Personally though, I would like to see decay reduced to 5% on chassis because the costs are just too high at this point (both in credits and resource consumption)with 10%.
I have one last bone to pick and then I'll quit - and this one is Privateer specific and focuses on (my obvious favorite ship) the Hutt Scyk.
Basically, it seems as though Rebels get higher overall mass, Imperials get better overall handling, and Privateers are somewhere in the middle (relax - that's just how I see it - I didn't say it was gospel =P )
Just wait for pub 11.2 to hit live, hopefully the privateer ships will become more viable. I do agree it is currently messed up for Privateers though.
That said, Privateers go through the same progression twice - light, medium and then heavy. That much is fine. What irks me is that while I have two viable choices between medium fighters and even heavies (yes, some players actually dig the Kimo), there's only 1 viable option for a light fighter - and it sure as heck isn't the Scyk.
Pardon me, but that bites!
I'll grant you that it's primarily aesthetic (barring those all important handling variables - which makes it more than an aesthetic argument) but I don't WANT a Blacksun Light fighter - I want a Scyk!
Lastly - do we, as privateers even HAVE a 1.0 speed modifer ship? I don't think we do - in fact, I'm fairly certain that the speed modifier for the Scyk is the same as the Dune Lizard (0.95) which is a grave injustice to a ship which equates to an engine with a seat.
So there you have it - give us tougher novice level ships. Give us more variety in a way that's viable and efficient. Up the mass on novice ships to 20 - 25K. Please don't let these ships become the CDEF weapons of space. =\
I do sympathize with what you are trying to address. However, if everything was equal it is my belief that the majority of players would use the cheapest version of the equality. It could result in us being no different then the average joe blow, which Idon'tthink is our role. It's quite difficult to balance everything, give everything a use, and at the same time not have one thing used by everyone, I will give the Devs credit on that. If you ask me starter chassis are serving their purpose quite well, as a platform to learn flight mechanics on.