Rifleman Archive

Thread: Draft: To reduce uberization using cross profession abilities.

Slysix
Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:30 pm
#1

Ok I've said this many times before on different post but I do not think I proposed a workable solution to the problem.

Problem: Players have access to use abilites on weapons that those abilities have not been designed for.
Example: Using a Knockdown or Root shot with a rifle.

Solution: Introduce a Profession specialty(ies) to all abilites and weapons. If one of the specialties of the ability does not match at lease one the specialties of the weapon a penalty is applied.
Possible Penalties:
A Cool Down timer multiplier.
Movement penalties.
Daze effect.(the shooter tries to sniper shot with a rocket launcher...temporarily blinded by backwash....)
Increased Action/Mind Cost.

Advantages:
Highly adjustable/tweakable.
Does not nerf any profession.

Disadvantages:
Might be difficult to implement intially.

Comments welcome.

PyscoJuggalo
Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:02 pm
#2

Cross use of specials aint even the issue, pistol weilders will always feel gimped because pistols don't deal damage. They have always felt this way since when the dev's nerfed the crafting of pistols so that they only used Power Handelers Or Feed Mechanisms, not both like they did in the before times.



I bet you anything if all pistoleer specials were made pistol only they would still complain.





I am the Mad Rifleman, Writer of the Riflenomican. I understand the secrets of the Dark Ancient Developer ones and their Evil. (Maniacal Laughter) He he he he he, Ha ha ha ha ha, Aha ha ha ha!
CM's are like nukes. You have them just incase you need them, but as soon as you start using yours the other guys start using theirs and everything goes to hell-PyschoticChipmunk -The First line of the Riflenomican.
Slysix
Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:12 pm
#3

Guy bub...keep it civil...I'm looking for solutions as we stand on our impending nerf precipice.

You sure it's not special moves? Cuz I'm seeing a lot of calls to have specials moved to the master box...
My proposal would circumvent that need.
It would also limit the riflemen from using that 65 m Root then startle shot spam. Which many people seem to be having difficulty with.
And will kinda corral people into the CU vision of Nukers, Support, Tankers and Healers.

PyscoJuggalo
Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:54 pm
#4






Slysix wrote:
You sure it's not special moves? Cuz I'm seeing a lot of calls to have specials moved to the master box...





Yes, I'm sure. People call for this and that in the master box, but it still will not change the fact that people will pick up that special no matter what, if it is a great special (Like Stopping Shot). The issue is that pistoleers who do not have another weapon profession are mad that their pistols suck. Are Carbineers mad because people pick up charge shot? No because carbines are useful weapons.


I'm a guy who studies human behavior and the reasons behind it. Here the reason is simple, pistols stink(Which they do) so pistol-weilders want to take it out on non-pistol weilders because the dev's do not fix things that you say are gimpped in a quick manner (They only do half-assed measures, like nerfs).


What would make pistols good, hell if I know? I'm not paid to figure that out.



I am the Mad Rifleman, Writer of the Riflenomican. I understand the secrets of the Dark Ancient Developer ones and their Evil. (Maniacal Laughter) He he he he he, Ha ha ha ha ha, Aha ha ha ha!
CM's are like nukes. You have them just incase you need them, but as soon as you start using yours the other guys start using theirs and everything goes to hell-PyschoticChipmunk -The First line of the Riflenomican.
Cpl_Fisher
Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:00 pm
#5

Pistol want to be able to do high damage, which would severly unbalance them if they did. If pistols were given riflman like damage, they would have to have all of there crowd control abilities up, and a lot of there defense. With a nice goraxed FWG5, pistoleers can still out dps rifleman over the long haul, becuase of sac issues. spamming ranged shot with a FWG5 outdps my krayted T21 spamming sniper shot.



Member of the Rock alliance.
CO of DD 214
Member of EC-p8r militia
"Have faith in God, but believe in antimatter"
Bounty Hunters kill for credits, Commando's kill for the hell of it!
Slysix
Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:06 pm
#6

I'm sure everyone want's to do high damage. So what's bothering pistoleers is the if we pick up a little bit of their tree we can use their effective abilites with our rifles. That is why they're calling for equivalent damage to what we can do.

However if we make the say the root shot that they have difficult for us to do, they do not have grounds to ask for a balance......

Now if we extend this to all the profesions....Tankers, Support, Nukers and Healers tend to fall in their assigned slots. Reguardless of how much we try to mix and match....we'll have to use the appropriate ability with the appropriate weapon or inccur the penalties.

PyscoJuggalo
Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:17 pm
#7

I think if we gave pistols duel weild (Were both weapons did 2/3'rds damage of each weapon added together) and/or a DOT that can be experimented on, on each pistol. They would be happy and we could all finally live in peace (And they really would'nt be all that overpowered).



-I know the DOT thing is like, "why would you locgically do this?" Well it is because I have no other ideas on how to make pistols useful in a combat situation.





I am the Mad Rifleman, Writer of the Riflenomican. I understand the secrets of the Dark Ancient Developer ones and their Evil. (Maniacal Laughter) He he he he he, Ha ha ha ha ha, Aha ha ha ha!
CM's are like nukes. You have them just incase you need them, but as soon as you start using yours the other guys start using theirs and everything goes to hell-PyschoticChipmunk -The First line of the Riflenomican.
Nisdain
Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:22 pm
#8

Or maybe all that code thats there that "isnt" working like the timer on roots and what not. How bout we fix that. How bout they fix stun so it does what its supposed to and all that jazz. Then maybe they'd find out they have some really strong crowd control abilities. Pistols arent supposed to do a lot of damage they'd supposed to apply states quickly... which they do. Its like us complaining that our rifles are too slow.



-Nisdain Vesrial / Caspers Neetakka
GriffinsMyth
Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:37 pm
#9

I think one of the major annoyances of non Rifleman is our ability to pin someone down. Use Charge Shot, or Underhand (which are both pretty easy to pick up) and then spam Adv Startle and they cant get up, plus rooting them from 65m, then applying crippling and being able to stay out of their range the whole fight. Its not so much dam or DPS or SAC pistoleers complain about, I have a gorax featherweight that'll out dam both my T21 and Elite Carbine over 10 secs, plus Pistoleers can solo krayts, just give them ranger, CM, or a bit of Carbineer and its no trouble.


Just fix consussion shot, make it so disarm does not break on dam and give people resists against repetative effects. First stopping shot will work, second one is fifty/fifty, third at 20%, same with disarm and snares.
Jaim_Darkstryder
Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:43 pm
#10



Nisdain wrote:
Or maybe all that code thats there that "isnt" working like the timer on roots and what not. How bout we fix that. How bout they fix stun so it does what its supposed to and all that jazz. Then maybe they'd find out they have some really strong crowd control abilities. Pistols arent supposed to do a lot of damage they'd supposed to apply states quickly... which they do. Its like us complaining that our rifles are too slow.




Sorry, you have been banned for using logic on the forums.


Really, fix what is broken before you go on a "Nerf Fest". Instead of Nerfing, perhaps add something to the master boxes of pistlols, smugglers and carbineers that adds to their respective Crowd Control ratings. Perhaps combine the Fan Shot and Stopping Shot abilities into one special at Master Pistoleer, thus giving them an area effect root, add an area effect concussion shot to Master Smuggler, and finally either make Carbineer's current area shot (suppression fire) work, or give them an area Knockdown again, also at Master Carbineer.


The fact that a rifleman will do more damage per shot with any special is pretty much a given on account of the fact that our weapons fire slower but hit harder, the other ranged professions make up for this with their speed (both rate of fire and movement). Sadly, most of the complaints about a Rifleman come from the same people that constantly complain about Bounty Hunters being too powerful... the Jedi. Of course you will be at a disadvantage when you are a melee profession facing a long range profession.



# I support people who don’t pirate the ribbon symbol and plaster all over irrelavent "causes" YARR, matey!
Donder
Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:00 pm
#11

OK, seems things are different on other servers.


On Kettemore, there are several pistols that do in excess of 800 points of damage. As well as those that do around 1000. The pistols, on average, fire faster, and have a much lower 'hit' on your action bar, despite having near the same SAC score.


Pistols are the weapon of choice on Kettemore, even amongst PvP'ers. That does not mean we don't have carbineers and riflemen, we do. Most of the BH's still master pistols. Thier DPS is comperable to the rifles, but can stay in the fight much longer due to the lower cost to action. (even when using strictly rifle shots).



But, I fully agree on one point to the original thread, Something Has To Be Done!


Increasing the SAC or action costs for use of non-proficient weapons, and for the use of most of the specials when used with a weapon they are not designed for, is the most reasonable course of action. I don't just mean ranged weapons, but any weapon. This also seems the most fair, and less likely solution to cause folks to cry 'Foul'.



Bunker/Donner


Slysix
Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:52 pm
#12



Jaim_Darkstryder wrote:


Nisdain wrote:
Or maybe all that code thats there that "isnt" working like the timer on roots and what not. How bout we fix that. How bout they fix stun so it does what its supposed to and all that jazz. Then maybe they'd find out they have some really strong crowd control abilities. Pistols arent supposed to do a lot of damage they'd supposed to apply states quickly... which they do. Its like us complaining that our rifles are too slow.




Sorry, you have been banned for using logic on the forums.


Really, fix what is broken before you go on a "Nerf Fest". Instead of Nerfing, perhaps add something to the master boxes of pistlols, smugglers and carbineers that adds to their respective Crowd Control ratings. Perhaps combine the Fan Shot and Stopping Shot abilities into one special at Master Pistoleer, thus giving them an area effect root, add an area effect concussion shot to Master Smuggler, and finally either make Carbineer's current area shot (suppression fire) work, or give them an area Knockdown again, also at Master Carbineer.


The fact that a rifleman will do more damage per shot with any special is pretty much a given on account of the fact that our weapons fire slower but hit harder, the other ranged professions make up for this with their speed (both rate of fire and movement). Sadly, most of the complaints about a Rifleman come from the same people that constantly complain about Bounty Hunters being too powerful... the Jedi. Of course you will be at a disadvantage when you are a melee profession facing a long range profession.




I'm not calling for a nerf here...I'm calling on a limitation on which weapon can be used with a profession's ability. A person with a rifle should not be able to root but if he picks up some pistoleer skills he can. So he should be able to root USING A PISTOL. And this is the point I'm trying to get across to some people who seem to want to ignore that fact. The only crowd control special a rifleman can use slows down a target. It's not a knockdown and it's not a root. The only special a person equiped with a rifle should be like wise be able to use the slow special. To do other special not inherent with a rifle profession should incur penalties as stated above. This should be applied across the board with ALL weapons and ALL specials. The fact that they now have weapons that only have CL as a requirement exaberates the problem.

GriffinsMyth
Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:31 pm
#13

Then it kinda defeats one of the purposes of the CU. Abilities are aquired through profession, but are in two catergories, ranged or melee. the only things that will come of penalties for 'wrong weapon specials' is, if the penalty is slight, it'll make no difference and I'll still use stopping with my rifle, if the penalty is large everyone goes back to preCU where its specific weapon to specific ability.


Seriously, if you want the range of a rifleman, use an ALR. If you want the specials of a pistoleer get pistoleer. In this game you can be whatever you want, it doesn't mean the template you choose must be the deadliest.

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