Rifleman Archive

soe's version of rifleman/sniper is REALLY of the mark here. forget about whether or not you can survive at the master rifleman level. forget about whether what gun is AR-whatever. i suspect that most people's vision of the rifleman that they want to play is not what the profession is or even should be. currenly, the porfession employs american revolutionary war-stlye tactics. kneel, shoot, reload, repeat until you kill what you're shooting at or it kills you. is this what you wanted? or is it a loner assassin or big game hunter? this simply isn't possible under the current setup.

consider rifle speed: remember lee harvey oswald? 3 shots in 10 seconds at 500 yards with a BOLT ACTION RIFLE. or for a less morbid example, anyone ever see professional skeet shooters? they can shoot down 2 clay pigeons at about 100m or so in about 1.5 seconds. but for some reason it takes me almost 10 seconds to re-aim at a kimogila's head. current weapon speeds are almost as slow as a musket, btw.

conisder damage: a sniper should be able to kill in one hit. period. that's the point, isn't it? if not, we're not very good snipers are we? i mean, if i went out hunting, took the time to cover and aim, i woudn't shoot at the deer's ass. i'd go for the clean kill. but that's not what happens, is it? instead i end up hitting the targets left small toe and pissing it off. we can't run and shoot. and we suffer huge melee penalties. who cares if we're the only class to do mind damage. we're dead before they are and that is not what is supposed to happen to good snipers.

consider range: go look up rifle competitions on the internet and tell me how many events have ranges of less than 64m. maybe one. one competition called sillohuette shooting involves taking 5 shots at various positions up to 500m away. btw, there's a 2-2.5 min time limit. another competition called position shooting with high power rifles is done at 1000m distance. in that competition you get 20 shots in 20 minutes. the lighter rifle version of the same competition allows 6 shots in 60 seconds at 200m. that's faster than my laser rifle at 60m. also, even in 1856 a rifled musket was 95% accurate at 100m. how is a laser rifle so innacurate at less than 60m? it's not like lasers are subject to forces like gravity and wind.

so here's my suggestion to un-gimp the class. the process of a sniper shot should be as follows: go prone, take cover/conceal, take aim, fire. aim time should be some linear function of distance and the SIZE OF THE TARGET. and yes we should be able to take shots up to about 100m (actually it should be something like 900m but that's probably impossible in the game) more or less undetected by our target depending on camoflage skill. a successful hit should incap or kill the target or at least do HUGE amounts of damage.

in addition, the concept of weapon speed should be eliminated completely. it's not like i have to pour more black powder into my laser rifle, cram a ball down the barrel and then pull the hammer back. i can lay on my belly and fire randomly as fast as the gun will allow me. if i want to aim, it itakes time. and as i advance in my profession, aim times should come down - at the master level 4-5 seconds at 100m based on the numbers above.

groda - Scyllasoe's version of rifleman/sniper is REALLY of the mark here. forget about whether or not you can survive at the master rifleman level. forget about whether what gun is AR-whatever. i suspect that most people's vision of the rifleman that they want to play is not what the profession is or even should be. currenly, the porfession employs american revolutionary war-stlye tactics. kneel, shoot, reload, repeat until you kill what you're shooting at or it kills you.

consider rifle speed: remember lee harvey oswald? 3 shots in 10 seconds at 500 yards with a BOLT ACTION RIFLE. or for a less morbid example, anyone ever see professional skeet shooters? they can shoot down 2 clay pigeons at about 100m or so in about 1.5 seconds. but for some reason it takes me almost 10 seconds to re-aim at a kimogila's head. current weapon speeds are almost as slow as a musket, btw.

conisder damage: a sniper should be able to kill in one hit. period. that's the point, isn't it? if not, we're not very good snipers are we? i mean, if i went out hunting, took the time to cover and aim, i woudn't shoot at the deer's ass. i'd go for the clean kill. but that's not what happens, is it? instead i end up hitting the targets left small toe and pissing it off. we can't run and shoot. and we suffer huge melee penalties. who cares if we're the only class to do mind damage. we're dead before they are and that is not what is supposed to happen to good snipers.

consider range: go look up rifle competitions on the internet and tell me how many events have ranges of less than 64m. maybe one. one competition called sillohuette shooting involves taking 5 shots at various positions up to 500m away. btw, there's a 2-2.5 min time limit. another competition called position shooting with high power rifles is done at 1000m distance. in that competition you get 20 shots in 20 minutes. the lighter rifle version of the same competition allows 6 shots in 60 seconds at 200m. that's faster than my laser rifle at 60m. also, even in 1856 a rifled musket was 95% accurate at 100m. how is a laser rifle so innacurate at less than 60m? it's not like lasers are subject to forces like gravity and wind.

so here's my suggestion to un-gimp the class. the process of a sniper shot should be as follows: go prone, take cover/conceal, take aim, fire. aim time should be some linear function of distance and the SIZE OF THE TARGET. and yes we should be able to take shots up to about 100m (actually it should be something like 900m but that's probably impossible in the game) more or less undetected by our target depending on camoflage skill. a successful hit should incap or kill the target or at least do HUGE amounts of damage.

in addition, the concept of weapon speed should be eliminated completely. it's not like i have to pour more black powder into my laser rifle, cram a ball down the barrel and then pull the hammer back. i can lay on my belly and fire randomly as fast as the gun will allow me. if i want to aim, it itakes time. and as i advance in my profession, aim times should come down - at the master level 4-5 seconds at 100m based on the numbers above.

groda - Scylla

All that's really needed for us to play as "snipers" is to BALANCE the ranges and damage of the various weapon lines. Make a pistol useless at 60m just as a rifle is useless at 15m. Bring the DPS of pistols down in line with rifles or bring the rifle DPS UP. The way it stands now, the best rifles I've see have DPS around 30-35. However, I've seen pistols with DPS of nearly 70!!!!!!!!!! That's total and utter bull$hit! I cannot comprehend how someone with a pistol can shoot MORE accurately and do MORE damage at max range that I can with my "sniper" rifle. This is my BIGGEST complaint!.

huh. that was wierd....

but you missed my point. balancing weapons isn't going to change the fact that under the current setup i can't properly snipe. it has nothing to do with pistol weapons or carbine weapons. it has to do with the fact that the combat system doesn't allow for proper sniping.

groda

Groda , Groda, groda my friend, 2 comments from your post:

1. For the last time, game mechanics isn't allowing ANY WEAPON to shoot farther than 64m. The devs are not able to do it period. WE WILL NEVER fire from more than 64 m because farther away, the mob AI isn't able to find us, meaning we could fire away at everything with no retaliation.

As for the rest of your post, with your rifleman template nobody would even be able to compete with us.

Please, you want us to be able to one-shot kill with no speed on weapons from 100m away? where's the fun in that? We would one shot everyone without even them knowing we are there.

Bottom line is this, I'm half up the tree to master rifleman. Ladies and gentlemen, WE ARE NOT GIMPED. In fact, we are one of the strongest profession in the game.

I can already one-shot nearly everyone in pvp, and my T21 is acting as AR 0, imagine when it will be AR3.

We have sniper shot, which is giving us a tremendous advantage in pvp, allowing us to gain tons of faction points, which in return translate in a lot of cool goodies.

At master rifleman, we actually shoot a T21 at around 1.5 seconds per shot, and we have strafe shot 2, an AREA OF EFFECT shot that hits for 2.5k everyone in like a 20m circle. If you ask me, its overpowered, as we can drop up to SEVEN player in one shot in pvp.

Please, you're only gonna get us nerfed by always asking for more, not withstanding than professions like BH and Commando SHOULD be stronger than us in PVP.

WE ARE NOT a combat profession.

BTW Groda, grats on a well writtend post though

Groda, you don't seem to understand that, this game is not real life. You cannot implement real-life solutions into a video-game setting, where there has to be a level playing field, so to speak. Yes, marksmen and sharpshooters can do great things in real life! Astounding feats.. However, if snipers can kill people in one hit (of course, everyone can right now. That -should- change, but I'm not sure, how, as any changes to PVP, or PVE, affect on another), whereas others can't, you have a major imbalance. DPS is not always the key. If you havea gun which hits for 2500 most of the time, but fires at freaking 5 minutes per shot - DPS means little in the situation, because you've killed the guy in one shot. There is your damage per second - 100%.

If this were DAOC, it would mean something more, to be calculating DPS for PvP, and such. Butwithoutscaling HAM bars,or with our huge damages incomparisson to average HAM levels, none of this stuff matters.

I believe that pistols should fire faster, but hit weaker. That carbinesshould be a good balance, and rifles should hit hardest, but slower.Rifles wouldhave the advantage of range, and frontloaded damage. Carbines would have a mix. And pistols would have the advantage of a fast speed, and the 'advantage' of range (if something is in your face, you can deal with it effectively, as opposed to rifles. It's still an advantage, just the reverse).

Not to mention Pistols not being able to shoot and hit just as accurately as rifles at max range.. ugh.

Also, another quick point. You say we cannot snipe people - this leads me to believe you've never even shot someone in PVP, or are a Novice. We snipe constantly. At max range, simple Headshot 3's tend to obliterate a lot of people out there in one shot.

Well well well...

we cant be farther than 64m to shoot... but WE CAN SHOOT THROUGHT MOUNTAINS!!!! woohoo! (many things need to be fixed!!)

Like when the mob is behind a SMALL rock... i mean small... like little, petite, very small rock... and you get a you cant see your target... come on!!

first, to say that we will never fire from more than 64m is a little short sighted. sure, there's time required to render, time required to update andaquire newcreatures/players on the map. but the thing is, a master sharpshooter's job shouldn't be to fire as quickly as possible. what does a hunter do? he sits, waits for a while. spends a great deal of time aiming. suppose you could bring up a scope. it would drastically narrow the angle at which you're trying to render the view, it would allow more time to aquire targets inside that cone at greater distances. it would make real sharpshooting/sniping/hunting much more feasible. the point is, there are solutions. and to say we'll NEVER see them is a little defeatist.

second, ok a master rifleman can fire a t21 at 1.5 times a second. that's acceptable. but that's a master rifleman. i don't pvp. i hunt for right now. and the list of things i can kill ony my own without being killed is extraordinarly short. as i advance the xp i get from those creatures drops but i don't get significantly more powerful. i mean, there's a whole column that adds to my camoflage bonus that doesn't help me out if i'm firing against an angry mob. how long will it take me to reach master rifleman? a year? i'll burn out before i fully realize that. oh yeah, and then i'll get strafe shot 2. and then i can do 2.5k damage on a group.

but doing 2.5k damage to a group isn't the character i want to play. and i suspect from most of the posts on this board complaining about max distance isn't the character those people don't want to play either. i guess there's really 2 branch's to being a rifleman, right? being able to spray bullets into an area to do as much damage as possible as fast as possibleor sitting, taking cover, aiming, shooting one target at a time. the thing is, aiming isn't a fast process. but if you aim right and you'rea little lucky then yes, you should be awarded with a one shot kill. if you spray bullets into an area haphazardly, then no you should not be awarded a one shot kill.

and so that's the ulitmate in rifleman is to sort of randomly fire at several targets at once? that's the penultimate finnesse of our character. i saw arnold kill lots of people like that in the movie commando, and i wouldn't call him a rifleman.

groda

Zelerian, next time you're in game, get 65 meters from your opponent, engage, regular shots and see what happens. From my experience, not only can I fire regular shots at 65 meters (not 66), but that mob will come charging down on me. 64 METERS IS NOT THE MAX RANGE FOR MOB AI. That's just bs they're telling you to keep them from having to do any real work.

xilaxtrasia:

i do understand that swg is not real life. i also understand things like game balance and server load. but to suggest that you can't implement real life solutions into software that is somehow in some way immitating real life without destroying the "delicate game balance" is taking a pretty unimaginative point of view.

people use bits of information like dps to rate howone profession compares to another. a master rifleman can do x amount of dps vs a pistoleer's y dps and it's fair or it's unfair.

and for the most part, people replying in this thread have told me how we're not gimped and we can't do this because of balance. but you're grossly missing point. i'm not saying a master rifleman is weak. clearly this isn't the case. what i'm saying is the THE QUALITY OF MY ROLEPLAYING EXPERIENCE AS A RIFLEMAN SUCKS ASS BECAUSE ALL WE CAN DO IS DUCK AND SHOOT! this doesn't have a single thing to do with dps. i haven't suggested anything that would give a huge advantage to the rifleman. what i'm suggesting is an alternative method to handle aiming, weapon speed and shooting distances that makes having a column of SNIPER SKILLS worth having and roleplaying.

if you're going to reduce the entire profession down to dps, you may as well be playing space invaders. it's oversimplifying and ignoring key issues as to why people chose this profession or even play this game.

and props to comet001 for understanding the work involved in making changes that would allow this kind of roleplaying. it's not that hard. the underyling stuff is already there.

groda

I can try that comet, and I dont know how you could, as soon as I hit 65m, it says target is out of range.

And for Groda, I understand your pain here, but I always saw the rifleman as a PVP profession, weak against mobs. As the truth is, you cant kill a kimo with a hot between the eyes nor a rancor, or a krayt dragon, it will take those massive creatures several shot to the head before dying.

However you can one-shot humans, which is why we are great at pvp.

If you dont want to pvp, but want to dominate solo, I'm afraid Rifleman is not for you.

Game mechanics aside the people you're comparing yourself too are very good at what they do. This is kind of like joining the track team and expecting to be able to run a 4 minute mile because the guys at the Olympics do. I know you play the lone sniper and make a kill and shot ratio of 1:1. The problem is that everyone can do it, you can be carrying a pistol and be a sniper. Big game hunting is very possible but you have to take up Scout and a little sniper. I know because I spread my points out at the begenning of the game and as I level is surrender and specialize. With just the scout abilities that add to creature accuracy I'm able to do noticably more damage to animals then riflemen that haven't invested in scout.

Rifle speeds get a lot faster as you move up and with the higher level attacks in PvP you pretty much use tab to target and hit a hotkey that fires off a combo of attacks and then hit tab to target.... It becomes a challenge to hit the buttons fast enough without a macro.

One hit kills on NPCs aren't going to happen, it's very unbalancing. Besides that I think the point of larger animals like Rancors and Krayt Dragons is that there is no place to make a clean kill. Seriously if there was a Rancor running through Northern Oregon there wouldn't lone gunmen hunting it. I do agree there is a problem with riflemen in PvE. We don't have nearly enough damage output to get reasonable exp in a group and any mob worth soloing will cover our meager range in a matter of seconds.

I like the range the way it is set up now except for the fact that it has no meaning. The general trend seems to be higher DPS for lower range. This makes sense as the lower the range the more damage they'll take comming in. Unfortunatly the blasters don't seem to have much loss in effectivness at long range regardless of their type and the range balance only applies to melees who have had their ranges set to point blank.

The only way to balance this issue is to truncate the ranges of pistols and carbines (major game changing nerf)or apply penalties to some circumstances. I think pistols and carbines should do less damage or be much less accurate beyond their optimal range.This lets riflemen make up for a low DPS by being able to get more shots in. The problem with this though, is that it would make riflemen the ultimate kiting class and overpowering in PvP. So riflemen also need to have a higher penalty for running and shooting then Pistoleers and Carbineers as the shorter range classes would have to do more. This would also help melees as now only Riflemen would be able to consistently make 1 hit kills from 65 meters and the Riflemen's lack of short range ability would be somewhat negated in comparrison to other classes.