Rifleman Archive
Thread: Foxhole Camps: the Ultimate in Sniping
This was an idea I had when brainstorming about making Scouts' camps and camping more attractive; it seems logically linked to Rifleman, so let's see what you guys think.
- Give Master Rangers the schematic for a "Foxhole" camp. A logical culmination of the /conceal and Survivalist branches craftable onlyby Master Rangers, foxhole camps would allowa /concealed, proneplayer (a Ranger or someone concealed by a Ranger) to become invisible on other players' radar. The player would only become visible again when the /conceal wore off, the player changed posture or moved more than a couple of meters, initiated combat, or was detected by a counter-sniper who makes a luck roll based on the Alertness mod (which currently seems to have no use, so that would kill two birds with one stone).
I think this would be an awesome, as well as logical addition to the skillset of Riflemen. It would be a great way to introduce actual sniping into the GCW, and could also stack with /concealShot to further reduce NPC reaction time (maybe in a foxhole, Riflemen can use a few non-/concealShot special attacks before being discovered).
Perhaps only Rangers and Riflemen who have mastered the Concealment Tactics branch (which could use some more usefulness)would be certified to drop a foxhole camp? Maybe require that the player is both a Rifleman with Concealment Tactics and a Ranger? What do you guys think?
But....
How many Rangers would complain "Why do I have to be a RIFLEMAN to use one of my skills??!?" (ie... Pistol Rangers, Carbine Rangers, TKA Rangers)
How many Riflemen would complain "Why do I have to be a RANGER to use one of my skills??!?"
Personally, I wouldnt complain... but im planning on mastering both of those professions anyway.
But hopefully you see my point...
I said "maybe" make it only Riflemen, just because the Concealment Tactics tree is there and it doesn't do a whole lot. Giving it to all professions, or limiting it to Rangers only, would be possible as well.
But I don't see why people should automatically shy away from a Profession interdependency that involves only two professions (in this case, Rangers have a skill that could potentially aid only Riflemen). It allows more diversity, and feels more like fine-tuning a few classes than sending a bunch of professions back to the drawing board. Besides, Master Weaponsmiths don't complain that they can'tuse a Light Lightning Cannon even though they can make them, do they?
I think that granting certain Profession combinations unique benefits like this would allow more character diversity...like allowing Architect/Rangers the ability to create a semi-permanent hunting lodge on adventure planets, or allowing Riflemen/Pikemen a special melee attack using the butt end of a rifle.
Anyway, just brainstorming. I'm sure there is a balancing way to make it work (isn't it incredibly annoying to be visible on radar to PvPenemies all the time?).
Brilliant idea, make sure the Devs see this!
It'd be very cool if what they were was basically a very, very low lying camp (so you only just fit under the canopy when prone) that blended in with the planet (obviously that means there'd have to be different ones for each planet).
Maybe make them made by Rangers, but give Rifleman a skill that allows them to place the camp.
I think the idea itself is sound, and I agree that it would be better if it was something a Ranger could craft but that someone who had achieved a certain level of one of the elite professions could place for themselves. The Ranger applying /conceal could possilbly make it more effective, but I think limiting it to placement by the Ranger as well would probably make it less useful. Also, although you frame it in the GCW perspective, I suspect that its usefulness against players would be limited. Most GCW warfare takes place in the cities.You cannot plant camps in the city. Even if you could, if I noticed a red dot, in the middle of town, and it suddenly disappeared from radar, I am pretty certain that I would guess that someone just planted one of these camps and call for reinforcements. Thus, it would be more likely used to setup ambushes, so the timer would have to be quite long on it, and that would probably be difficult to setup, except to grief mission spawn points, though technically, that would not really be griefing from a war perspective.
From an NPC/Critter perspective, it would need to add something different than you describe. I can already use Concealshot to take down creatures without being detected, and anyone, if they are undetected, can go prone and get off two or three ranged shots before the creature aggros on you. So this would have to give some kind of other bonus. For instance, Concealshot works fine as long as you are out past 40m or you do not miss twice. If you miss twice, they will aggro on you. So maybe the camp could let you miss one or two more times before that happened. Likewise, if a target gets too close, it will notice you and aggro even if you have not missed. Perhaps it could be that if the creature does wander too close, and you stop shooting, that they could not detect you unless you move, or reintiate combat while they are close, or the conceal wears off, etc.
Otherwise, it is an interesting proposal.
SilverLobo wrote:
In every game there are skills and counters to thatskills. So can you tell me exactly what would be used to counter this? Oh wait like balance you spent absolutely no time on it.
Rifleman have a Concealment Tactics branch, that currently is not very useful. Riflemen have a Counter-Sniping branch that offers a lot of defensive bonuses, but there's no real "counter-sniping" involved. Riflemen would balance other Riflemen.
And do you play a Rifleman? If you do, you don't feel considerably underpowered right now ? Take a look at the massive "A reasonable request from a Rifleman" thread on the SWG Discussion forum if you need an example of why Rifleman need some extra muscle to increase balance things.
Or is it your opinion that the game is perfectly balanced right now, and the only way to deal with unruly people like me, who insist on trying to stimulate constructive discussion about ideas for improving the game and our class within the game, is to shoot their raw ideas down usingcaustic sarcasm,as if they were official proposals from the developers?
Only allowing Rifleman to use it would be rather unfair to the other combat classes.
A good idea is to allow Rangers to sell the camps. I'm worried then that they would be over-used, and thence get nerfed to hell making it useless for Rangers.
So, ideas:
1) Rangers can make and sell them to anyone.
2) Anyone can use them
3) Non Rangers or Rifleman get a large penalty to any modifiers the camp provides.
4) Rifleman only get a slight penalty to modifiers.(maybe pistol can have large penalties, rifle small, carbine in-betweem)
5) Rangers obviously have no penalty.
Still though, kinda unfair. Maybe it would be worded better as 'Riflemen get slight bonus to modifiers, Rangers get massive bonus to modifiers, that doesn't sound right to me though.
1) Ranger makes. And can trade.
2) Only Rangers and/or Rifleman with master concealment can use.
Snoopacca wrote:
SilverLobo wrote:
In every game there are skills and counters to thatskills. So can you tell me exactly what would be used to counter this? Oh wait like balance you spent absolutely no time on it.
Rifleman have a Concealment Tactics branch, that currently is not very useful. Riflemen have a Counter-Sniping branch that offers a lot of defensive bonuses, but there's no real "counter-sniping" involved. Riflemen would balance other Riflemen.
And do you play a Rifleman? If you do, you don't feel considerably underpowered right now ? Take a look at the massive "A reasonable request from a Rifleman" thread on the SWG Discussion forum if you need an example of why Rifleman need some extra muscle to increase balance things.
Or is it your opinion that the game is perfectly balanced right now, and the only way to deal with unruly people like me, who insist on trying to stimulate constructive discussion about ideas for improving the game and our class within the game, is to shoot their raw ideas down usingcaustic sarcasm,as if they were official proposals from the developers?
Umm.. Yeah, you must be new here. Lobo knows this class far better than most; He's just kranky.
Riflemen suck at Novices. It's a fact. Anything we add at the novice level will GASP! still be there at master!! Thereby making master VERY overpowered. I suggest you find a master or two on your server of choice, and follow them on a hunt. You will be VERY surprised. Master RM own. I've seen 2 take out all of Theed in about 5 seconds. Scary **edit**. 5x per second (or close to it) in a cone with a 700 max, ap2 or ap3 gun does a lot of damage.
700* 1.5 * 5 * 1.56=8190 damage, per second, in a cone. WOW. The number for an ap3 gun: 10238
Do some research before you post. Thisgame is not balanced, Not in the least.ButRiflemen are pretty darn close to it.Sure, the T-21 is abit off, but nothing major.
Issik wrote:
Umm.. Yeah, you must be new here.
...
Do some research before you post. Thisgame is not balanced, Not in the least.ButRiflemen are pretty darn close to it.Sure, the T-21 is abit off, but nothing major.
I was a Master Rifleman for a few months; it was the first profession I got. Which part of my post indicated that I don't understand how the class works?
Your argument is that Master Rifleman works, but that every single level below the Master box kinda stinks, right? (I agree with this, it felt like a completely different profession at Master) However, do you really think that's justification for not trying to improve the rest of the tree whatsoever? Why the need to belittle my knowledge of the Rifleman profession just because I tried to share an idea I had that could potentially make the class more fun?
Besides, the skill I'm talking about wouldn't increase the power of a Rifleman - it would just offer the Rifleman a new tactic (having to stay in one spot, but invisible). Since you guys seem to want to dog-pile on me since I didn't include an impact analysis on how this would affect other every other class, allow me try to come up with checks and balances on it:
- There's a Rifleman Concealment Tactics, and a Snipingbranch. There's a Rifleman Counter-Sniping Techniques branch. Counter-Sniping should, by definition, be a balance against Sniping. However, currently neither sniping nor counter-sniping really exist. Rifles just employ the same tactics as other weapons, they just target and drain a different pool. Allow counter-sniper mods to greatly increase the chance of detecting covered Snipers, and of dodging the first Sniper attack (after which the Sniper is revealed).
- Rangers with the new area search command could locate covered Snipers.
- Sniping would be a pretty much solo-only tactic (perhaps limit the proximity of one sniper to another, thereby also granting snipers another check for nearby snipers), so they'd have to be careful when they decide to open fire. It wouldn't create any "uber" skill, just give Riflemen another tactic to play with. Don't you think a single Pistoleer jogging back to base after killing some Imperials ought to be easy prey for a Sniper? Don't you think any MORE than one or two competent combat players would be able to stage an effective counter-attack (or at least retreat to safety with a casualty or two) once the Sniper began firing, thus revealing himself?
blah blah blah. You can make every arguement under the sun about why you think it is a great idea, but the fact of the matter is you are going to give rifleman a free shot, possibly two. NOW tell me how are you going to balance that? Using the argument that this would make us balanced because Rifleman is aweak profession is laughable, and I will hazzard the guess that 99% of Master Rifleman would agree with me.
What I have said from the begining you people really need to look at the profession and realize that asking for my stuff comes at a price. Like our corespondent trying to turn Rifleman into a sniper will come at a price, that I am not willing to pay for.
The Rifleman profession is one of the best all around professions in the game because of how well it can combine with other professions. Just because the majority does not see that does not mean it is not true.
asking for my stuff comes at a price
Should have been "asking for more stuff comes at a price"