Rifleman Archive
Thread: Rifleman issues/thoughts/concerns for the upcoming Correspondent's Summit
I am Guru, the Artisan Correspondent. I'm making this thread in y'alls forum to give y'all a place to collect your thoughts and ideas regarding the Rifleman profession in regards to the upcoming combat revamp. Unhappily, since you do not yet have a replacement correspondent (TH indicates y'all should have one by the end of the week, btw), you will not have a correspondent at the correspondent summit August 26-28. I will be going to this summit and I offer to carry your issues with me and speak for you at the summit.
Why would the Artisan Corre do this? I am a Rifleman too.
I've played a Master Rifleman in live for 8 months now and have a decent feel for the profession in a live PvP and PvE environment. You know what they say, all crafting and no combat makes Guru a dull boy! I care about Rifleman issues and I want to make sure you guys get your issues represented as best I can.So, please collect your ideas on what you'd like to see out of the combat revamp regarding Rifleman. Rifleman Vision, role in PvP, grouping, PvE, etc are all issues that should be spoken to.
Please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns.
Take care,
Guru
Message Edited by Guruweaver on 08-10-2004 01:38 PM
Guruweaver wrote:
Hello all,
I am Guru, the Artisan Correspondent. I'm making this thread in y'alls forum to give y'all a place to collect your thoughts and ideas regarding the Rifleman profession in regards to the upcoming combat revamp. Unhappily, since you do not yet have a replacement correspondent (TH indicates y'all should have one by the end of the week, btw), you will not have a correspondent at the correspondent summit August 26-28. I will be going to this summit and I offer to carry your issues with me and speak for you at the summit.
If this is true you can expect a general outcry from Riflemen and probably TKA's too. Riflemen have been without a Correspondent for ten full weeks as of tomorrow ( 2.5 months). That was more than enough time for one to have been chosen with plenty of time for them to make the summit.
As for our concerns. It's kind of hard to say since we don't have access to the Correspondents board and hence do not know what is in the works for the revamp. Especially since none of that information is being released. We are in the dark here.
Our main concern is that we'll be nerfed into near uselessness. We hear the constant cries to make rifles slower. We hear them call for Riflemen to only to be able to shoot while prone or not moving. We hear that Riflemen shouldn't be able to do Stun damage or hit the head. We hear the Devs say we should be snipers when that isnt' possible. We hear all kinds of these things. Mostly because we are a working profession whiel many others are not. Because most of the nerf herders focus on PvP which only the minority do and they ignore what effects it will have on PvE. They see what works correctly in our profession but not what isn't. Granted there isn't much that isn't working but there are a few things. But we hear these things and I for one am nervous. Especially if we don't have a Correspondent there for us.
Thanx for the offer to carry our concerns to the summit. Randonb (Pistoleer) and DocSavag (Merchant) have also been looking to help us out. However it is rather critical we have our own Correspondent there too.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 08-10-2004 08:55 AM
biwan:We are the ranged class right now, bit only for one reason.
We hit the Mind pool. And PvP is allll about hitting the mindpool. Why? Beacuse of Doctor buffs and 80-90% composite. Doctor buffs on regen stats goes so high that it nearly impossible to make a dent in the health or action pools. Especially when you're wearing armor.
The professions that have been left viable are those that can target the mind, to damage the one pool that doesn't have 3000+ regeneration, and of course cannot be healed easily.
Kill doctor buffs and armor, and watch the other professions become more viable as players shed their armor.
- The Devs have stated their vision of Riflemen is that we are Snipers. This has been shown numerous times to be impossible given the combat limitations put in. Namely lack of range, inability to hide from radar, and no one hit kills (a snipers motto). Please disuade them from this approach as it is not workable. Riflemen in the game are Infantry with some Sniper like abilities.
- AoE : AoE causes aggro when there is no line of sight. Such as when the target is behind a wall and such. Perfect example is dungeons where using an AoE can aggro a large number of MOB's onto you. This should be changed so that if the MOB can't be hit (because of no LoS) then it can't aggro.
- StartleShot1/2 : These skills are higher in the tree than FlushingShot but have the same delay and damage mods. They also lack a state effect like FlushingShot1/2. They should be changed/replaced so that they are not redundent and at higher levels.
- SurpriseShot : This does not work as the description states. It does not 'surprise' the target nor do you have to be using /TakeCover to use it. Suggestion : Move SurpriseShot to Concealment IV. Make it a high damage/delay modsingle target random HAM special. This would make it basically a PvE version of SniperShot. It also gives a useful skill in the mostly bare Concealment branch.
- Melee Defense : As of right now it appears that Rifleman have higher melee defense than they actually do. Reason being though they have a good melee defense mod, melee also have a bonus to hit them which negates some it. Suggestion :Reduce the melee defense mods in Rifleman to the corresponding level and remove the melee to hit bonus vs Rifleman.
- Rifles Fire Slower : A main point of contention for the Rifleman. We frequently see claims that rifles fire slower than other weapons. There is no basis for this claim. The speed at which someone fires a weapon is not a mechanical limit on the weapon. It represents aim time. Rifles, pistols, and carbines all use the same technology in regards to the weapon. Which means they would all have about the same recycle rate. At Master, all professions should hit the speed cap with most if not all their specials. That is what Master means. Someone that is absolutely at the pinacle with their chosen weapon.
- Block : There seems to be issues with Block. Namely that it doesn't scale correctly with the other secondary defenses and it has been reported that it doesn't or very rarely works outside of using CoB which a Rifleman doesn't have. Suggestion : Change Block from reducing 50% damage when activitated. Make it so that Block stops 100% damage and state effect however it only works vs Melee. Personally I don't see how anyone can Block a blaster shot. Doing so would at least ruin the weapon.
- DPS : Another main point of nerf calls. Balance can not be achieved by making everyone have the same DPS. There are other factors that make up a profession. For combat professions there are three main areas. Offense, defense, and combat multipliers. Rifleman is high offense, mid combat multipliers, and low defense.
- Balance : Being a skill based game, you can not balance the profession in a linear manner. It can not be a 50/50 chance. A circular balance is going to have to be what the mark is. That means a more rock/scissors/paper approach. That means in PvP some professions will have what seems to be a gross advantage over other professions. That can not be avoided. However for every advantage there will also be a disadvantage. In the Riflemans case it's the lack of defense (other than ranged) especially in regards to state effects.
- Buffs / Armor : There are two different systems in use for buffs. You have the Entertainer system that is +X% and then you have the Docs which is just +X. Those systems cause a disparity. Both should use the same system and cap out at the same levels for Master. Armor is an aspect of this also since it is buffs which make the very high end near impervious armor wearable. Suggestion : Lower armor resists to cap in the 65-75 range. Also make armor more damage type specific so there are different suits that are more advantageous vs different damage types. Make the high end resist of the armor only cover 2-3 damage types.
- Suggestion : Accuracy Mods : There are accuracy mods in specials right now. This causes to confusion and people thinking some professions are much more accurate than others when if you factor these mods in they are nearly identical. Please remove the accuracy mods from specials and move them into the professions. It would clear up a lot of confussion and simplify things.
- MOB's : The way high end MOB's have been instituted makes it so that DPS is the only factor in taking them down. This handicaps those professions that have their advantages elsewhere and builts resentment towards those with higher offense. Suggestion : Vary the way MOB's work. Instead of increasing their HAM you can increase their defenses. If you make it so they get half as often it's the same as doubling their HAM or raising their armor/resists. Have MOB's use specials and state effects so that those professions that use defense as their primary defense have a use and chance to use their strong point against some MOB's. Also on some MOB's lower their near invulnerability to state attacks so that those professions that rely on those as their primary advantage to have a use vs certain targets. MOB's should be in the same advantage/disadvantage areas as PC's. Though their disadvantages should be less pronounced on high end content. However they should not all be the same with extremely high armor/resists, HAM, and invulnerability to state attacks.
- Suggestion : NPC Specials : There have been cases of low level MOB such as Meatlumps using very advanced specials such as StrafeShot2. The level of the MOB should limit the level of the special they can use. Also NPC's using specials should have the damage output based on the weapon in hand and not on the MOB itself. NPC's should be nothing more than computer controlled PC's and should be under many of the same strictures as the players.
- Suggestion : Critical Hits/Misses : Something that would be fun to see added. There would be a small chance that any hit you land would be a critical hit. That hit would do reduced damage (say 50%). However there would also be a chance of a critical hit. If a critical hit lands there would be an increase in damage. The increase could be random and could be along the lines of (75% of 1.5X , 20% 2.0X, and 5% 3.0X). It would add a measure of randomness to combat and allow for some great RPG stories. The chance of a critical hit would increase as you progressed thru the profession and would top out at say 5%. The crit hit mods would be in the branch that uses Combat XP and would be weapon/profession specific and would not stack. In the case of BH that as Pistol and Carbine useage, they would get their crit mods within their profession. However a hard cap of 5% would be in effect so it could not be stacked.
- Suggestion: Weapon Switch : Change how the weapons switch delay works. Base it off the weapon in hand to and weapon being switched to. Smaller weapons would switch faster. Also in the profession there would be a mod for this. It would cap out at +50 for a profession. Two exceptions would be BH and Smuggler which would cap at +65. Base weapon delay speed would be based on size. From smallest (fastest) to largest (slowest) it would be TKA, Pistoleer/Fencer, Carbineer/Swordsman, Rifleman/Pikeman/Commando. The fastest combo would be TKA to TKA switch which with the speed mod would be at about 1 second. Which means a starting speed of 1/sec for TKA weapons. Pistoleer/Fencer base would be about 1.5, Carbineer/Swordsman at 2.0, with the rest at 2.5. Those number of course could be changed/tweaked.
Well those are my suggestion for now. Should be a good starting point I hope. Not everything is concerning Rifleman but overall it should help combat I believe. Which is the point of the combat revamp. If you want any clarifications on my suggestions let me know.
Good luck at the summit. And if you are allowed please let us know what's going on and what suggestions were made not just to our profession but in general.
I know this is frustrating, it's frustrating to us too. In starting this, it was my intention to make sure you had at least one voice at the table. And, yes, when the Rifleman correspondent is selected, I'll work with them to ensure your issues are well represented. I care about y'all and want to make sure that you are not "nerfed into uselessness".
I thank you for the good details so far, please keep 'em comming.
As for the starting point, or what you have to work with, we don't know either. Perhaps between now and the summit we'll get more details on what the revamp proposal will be, but as of right now y'all know as much as we do. (See the threads in the In Development" board)
I feel very confident that no combat profession is going to be nerfed into uselessness. It is our intention, and the intention of the devs (as expressed to us and to the community at large), to help create a well balanced and useful revamp that gives each combat profession a real, fun, and effective role in SWG moving forward.
Let's try to work together and make the best out of this situation. We cannot change what has happened in the past, but we can effect the future. I would like to help you do that, please help me help you.
Take care,
Guru
Guruweaver wrote:
Hello all,
I am Guru, the Artisan Correspondent. I'm making this thread in y'alls forum to give y'all a place to collect your thoughts and ideas regarding the Rifleman profession in regards to the upcoming combat revamp. Unhappily, since you do not yet have a replacement correspondent (TH indicates y'all should have one by the end of the week, btw), you will not have a correspondent at the correspondent summit August 26-28. I will be going to this summit and I offer to carry your issues with me and speak for you at the summit.
Why would the Artisan Corre do this? I am a Rifleman too.
So, please collect your ideas on what you'd like to see out of the combat revamp regarding Rifleman. Rifleman Vision, role in PvP, grouping, PvE, etc are all issues that should be spoken to.
Please feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns.
Take care,
Guru
Message Edited by Guruweaver on 08-10-2004 01:38 PM
First of all, thank you very much for your attention to our profession. (Thanks to Randonband DocSavag as well.)
As has been mentioned, it is hard to know what to express as concerns since we are told nothing specific. We have to base our concerns on rumors and the mating calls of nerf-monkeys.
However, from what I have seen, the upcoming changes will make Mind healable. That is kind of to be expected; however, we have also heard that "slow weapons will fire slow, even in the hands of a Master, just not as slow as at Novice). That suggests a new, probably variable, speed cap in the works. We have also heard that for a rifleman to be most effective, he will HAVE to be prone and, probably, using a tank. And we have heard since January (and seen hints of on test), the new HAM system will not alow the continuous firing of specials. We have also heard that you will run slower carrying a larger weapon. Finally, we have heard that hitting a targeted pool will be much less effective in that, we have heard that there will be a higher chance to miss altogether on a targeted pool shot and that if you do hit, you will not necessarily even hit the pool itself.
If all of that is true, and nothing else changes, I foresee Rifleman becoming untenable as a profession. We have poor melee and poor state change defenses. That means that we can be knocked down by a gentle breeze, at which point our high DPSdrops to zero. Even if you are a Master Doc, as I am, and can cure dizzy, if you are fortunate enough to get up after a dizzy/KD, the dizzy will be back in two seconds and you will be knocked down again repeatedly. Our only chance is to keep out of range of melee and target the mind. If they get close, we (as a pure rifleman) are simply dead. And right now, that is okay since if they cannot get close, they are dead, meaning there is balance there.
But with the rumored changes, mind will be healable. Right now, the reason the mind pool is so important is that it has very low healability. Once that changes, mind damage becomes healable and extends the battle. That means it simply prolongs the time it takes to have to keep away from a melee opponent and virtually guarantees we will be caught. Once caught, our inability to do any kind of KD means that we cannot knock them down and our low defenses means that we are guaranteeed to be KDed ourselves. By the way, you cannot heal while knocked down either. Add to that the other rumored factors. Our best damage weapons will be reduced in DPS by a speed cap, meaning we will do less damage before they get to us. And if we have to run slower while holding this larger, more damaging weapon, that means that while having a reduced DPS, we are even more likely to be caught by our opponent. And if the targeted pool changes are correct, we will not even be able to effectively concentrate on our primary pool.
This all goes to the stated goal of the HAM system changes to extend combat. But as I indicate, for a rifleman, extended combat is death. We have no defenses to speak of, so if we do not take out our opponent quickly, we are nothing but fodder. This means that the HAM system changes to make it so that specials cannot be fired continuoulsly means that we have to rely more on autofire, which targets random pool and does minimal damage, extending combat more, making our profession even more vulnerable.
Then to top it all off, we keep hearing them say that we are supposed to be the long range snipers. It has been discussed ad nauseum here that sniping in this game is impossible. Yet, we have heard it said that to be most effective, we will have to be prone. But anyone who has PvPed knows that PRONE=DEATH. Prone is essentially immobile. It takes buta second or two to traverse the few meters from our ideal range to out of range, and prone, I cannot adjust quickly enough to keep them in range. It takes only a couple of seconds longer to traverse the 40 - 50 meters to get within melee range. That means that, prone, you get only a couple of shots off (even now and at Master) before you have to get up and start running. If you do not, you are dead because, at melee range, prone means you cannot shoot at point blank and, while prone, you take much more damage.
There is simply no way to go prone in this game unless you are shooting single targets who are otherwise engaged in battle already and unaware of you. But I can do the same thing more safely if I am standing and able to move when they do take notice of me. The advantages of prone are worthless in PvP.
Then, add to that the fact that it is impossible to kill a higher-level Jedi as a Rifleman due to the fact that they can out run you, block almost everything you shoot, and do melee damage when they, in very short order, out run you. That means that to survive with the hundreds of Jedi the devs seem to be intent on putting into the game (Jedi which did not exist at this time in galactic history, by the way), you will either have to bea Jedi yourself or you will have to have force enhanced skills, meaning Rifleman/Doc will be worthless against them. Of course, I gave up my M. Rifleman/M. Swordsman/M. Brawler template for M. Rifleman/M. Doc because I could not survive against CMs without Doc.
Frankly, from the changes I have seen proposed, rifleman will be a worthless profession. With virtually no usable state changes (Dizzy is of limited use without a KD or posture down effect, leaving Stun as the only useful effect) and no defenses against same, with no ability to escape, and no chance of killing your opponent before they catch up to you, and without the ability to hit a targeted pool that cannot be easily healed, they have taken away the things that make us survivable, and given us nothing workable.
So whats the porpose of this?
Have all 3 proffesions fire at the same exact rate? Then in that case, they should all have equaly powerfull weapons since you put "mechanics" into the argument.
No. If all professions fired at the same rate, that does not necessarily imbalance anything. Specials, defenses, and offensive power are moresignificant means of balance. I don't know where you got the idea that same speed=same power, but that's the kind of thinking that got us into this mess to begin with. If things are to be fixed, more creative solutions and mechanics need to be implemented.
thepunisher286 wrote:
"Rifles Fire Slower : A main point of contention for the Rifleman. We frequently see claims that rifles fire slower than other weapons. There is no basis for this claim. The speed at which someone fires a weapon is not a mechanical limit on the weapon. It represents aim time. Rifles, pistols, and carbines all use the same technology in regards to the weapon. Which means they would all have about the same recycle rate. At Master, all professions should hit the speed cap with most if not all their specials. That is what Master means. Someone that is absolutely at the pinacle with their chosen weapon."
So whats the porpose of this?
Have all 3 proffesions fire at the same exact rate? Then in that case, they should all have equaly powerfull weapons since you put "mechanics" into the argument.
Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 08-10-2004 04:26 PM