Rifleman Archive
Thread: Will it even make a difference if Eyeshot burned Mind?
I've been reading threads all over the forums discussing Eyeshot and people's feelings regarding that skill. Quite frequently I've seen the suggestion thatEyeshot should use Mind instead of Action. However, I don't think that would deter BHs from continuing to spam Eyeshot.
Here's my reasoning. On my server, Kauri, the scatter pistols from master weaponsmiths have HAM costs along the lines of 12/50/12, or something to that effect. Notice the miniscule Mind cost, which makes sense since normally pistol specials burn off Action.However, now BHs would be able to spam Eyeshot for a minimal amount of Mind, instead of a larger amount of Action.
I have to concede that I don't have a good viable alternative, but I just wanted to point this out this problem with one of the more frequently voiced ideas.
my thought is to make it where eyeshot should require a rifle to use the skill. yes it comes from the pistol tree but the BH is suppose to be master of all weapons, they have a pistol and carbine line and a heavy weapon line, so why not make the skill require a rifle, it would give them a chance to use the rifle certs they get in mastering marksman. They would still need to up the mind cost on eyeshot, but because the ham cost for rifles have high mind cost, the up wouldnt be that much.
Just my two credits,
Er... bounty hunters have zero use for rifles after becoming a novice bounty hunter. (I find that silly, but that is how it is). Personally, I think it'd make more sense if BH'ers had a rifle than a heavy weapon. As it is, our rifle training is entirely wasted. But asking us to use a weapon that we cannot use the xp from is just silly.
beamstalk wrote:
my thought is to make it where eyeshot should require a rifle to use the skill. yes it comes from the pistol tree but the BH is suppose to be master of all weapons, they have a pistol and carbine line and a heavy weapon line, so why not make the skill require a rifle, it would give them a chance to use the rifle certs they get in mastering marksman. They would still need to up the mind cost on eyeshot, but because the ham cost for rifles have high mind cost, the up wouldnt be that much.
ZabrakGurl...
It was refreshing to see your signature. It says a lot about you. Thanks for playing the game for the enjoyment of the game and not just to be Uber.I really respect that. The only reason I stick with rifleman is because I simply like the style of hunting. In any high-level MOB fight, I use 2-4 different rifles, change positions several times, and use any number of different shots depending on the situation. This makes each hunt somewhat different and keeps me enjoying the game.... Strategy! what a concept!
It would make a difference.. most wouldn't use it.. because most have miniscule 450/400/400 mind stats or thereabouts. You can take foods to reduce that 50 action cost to pretty much zero. They'd probably wind up unmemming it.
WayneInAustin wrote:
In any high-level MOB fight, I use 2-4 different rifles, change positions several times, and use any number of different shots depending on the situation. This makes each hunt somewhat different and keeps me enjoying the game.... Strategy! what a concept!
And incredibly, that is exactly the way that bounty hunters are designed to fight as well. During a capture (more like kill... one of my gripes is that it's more like assassin than bounty hunter) I would routinely use 3-4 different weapons. And not just in turn with some scripted routine... but switching them up (often frequently) to react to changes in my mark's strategy, posture, etc.
That part was fun. The fact that as a bounty hunter I was given the tools and flexibility to take down some of the hardest target NPCs in the game. As it should be, in my opinion. What gets old is that they're pretty much all the same. The lowbie level missions are on the same planet all the time... fine, this is good practice for learning HOW to be a bounty hunter and fight smart. All the weapons and specials mean zilch unless a bounty hunter learns to be a better player. For that aspect of it, I greatly value my time spent in that profession. It DID teach me to play smart.
On the other hand, PvP requires much less though. Yep, Eyeshot is spammed. But in fact Eyeshot is far from a bounty hunter's best style. The only reason it's so effective is that it targets a non-healable pool. This is no revelation to you riflemen. People gripe about the BH'er ability to target the mind pool, but I feel it's justified since the devs designed the BH class and forgot to include rifle. HAD they included rifle as the 3rd weapon rather than a heavy weapon (/boggle) then there'd be no real need for Eyeshot. As master marksmen, I feel a BH deserves the ability to target all 3 HAM pools. Eyeshot is how that is accomplished.
Now, the real problem with it is... like I said... in fact a general weakness (read: bad design) of the entire HAM system. Frankly, there would be much less nerf-crying and cross-profession bashing if all weapons attacked health, action determined one's ability to perform specials, and mind was for healing capacity or what have you. In other words, every other game's simple but effective system. Yep, that's right. Sometimes newer isn't better. HAM sounded like genius on paper, but in practice in SWG it has turned into a nightmare.
Frankly, within the confines of the current system (HAM) I'm not entirely sure how to placate the concerns over Eyeshot. But I truly don't think it needs nerfing. In fact, I think the cries about it are only a symptom of a much larger issue... a serious flaw in healing.
Last thing: I fully support riflemen in their fight to be brought up to the level of effectiveness you deserve to be at. I've posted this in another thread in your forum today that if anyone in the game should be one-shotting other players, it ought to be riflemen. I don't see any problem with that, honestly. Further, the rifle should be the most accurate weapon, period. Clearly that doesn't seem to be how it's working out in practice.
Anyhow, nerfs hurt everyone. They snowball. It's a never ending cycle. The proper thing to do is to FIX your class. (And others that are broken, and that does even include BH to some degree). Once the classes actually bestow the benefits described in the hard-earned skill boxes, THEN it is a good time to consider balancing. But when balancing, it's ONLY fair to do so when comparing fully used templates. Not individual professions which may have widely varying requirements.
Cheers.
Oh yes, I almost forgot to comment on the specific topic of this thread. I've never been into the SWG PvP scene. It's a rediculous pointless waste of time that does nothing but inflame people to cry for nerfing each other. But making Eyeshot use mind pool would have made ZERO difference to me, and I doubt it'll matter much to other BH'ers either. Heck, I'm a Zabrak... my mind pool regenerates like mad. It might even encourage Zabraks to use it. Be careful what you ask for...
"Er... bounty hunters have zero use for rifles after becoming a novice bounty hunter. (I find that silly, but that is how it is). Personally, I think it'd make more sense if BH'ers had a rifle than a heavy weapon. As it is, our rifle training is entirely wasted. But asking us to use a weapon that we cannot use the xp from is just silly."
That was my point, give them a reason to use rifles, I find it kind of odd that they have to learn rifles just to not ever use them again. After saying that I do agree it would be silly xp-wise, I hadn't thought of that. But I was just thinking that might be simple solution, oh well will keep thinking on this some more.
I agree that bounty hunters SHOULD have been designed to use rifles. That entire skill line for us is essentially wasted. But heck, Bounty Hunters also have no practical use for Hunting, Survival, or Trapping either. So essentially HALF of the skill point requirements for bounty hunter have no bearing whatsoever on how the end-profession really works.
Bad design. But do I expect any radical changes at this point? Nope... and don't hold your breath either, because they may tweak this-and-that, but it'll never be truly overhauled.
Heck, in ZabrakGurl's perfect world, BH wouldn't even BE a combat profession. It would have only master scout as a pre-req. and be all about tracking and such. Someplace in between where it currently is with droid usage and the new features given to rangers. Then simply let the BH pick his or her own weapon and leave enough points for them to master it.
But heck, that would almost make sense. 
I'm not arguing concepts. I'm talking about the game. In SWG bounty hunters have no need and do not useone half of the skills they learned to qualify to become a bounty hunter once they are one.
That isn't to say that I had never set up a camp, never harvested... but I sure as heck never used traps and never used a rifle again once I met the qualifications. Why would I? Why waste my time with a weapon that does notthing to help me advance. And traps cannot be used on humanoid targets. I can assure you that I've never taken a bounty mission where the mark was non-humanoid. 
The pre-requisites exist primarily as a point-sink... to make it more difficult to become a bounty hunter and to limit the future training options of those bounty hunters.
Anyhow... the thread was started to discuss if Eyeshot using (primarily) mind pool would discourage BH'ers from spamming it in the PvP environment, and I'm simply saying that I seriously doubt it would matter.
ZabrakGurl wrote:
Anyhow... the thread was started to discuss if Eyeshot using (primarily) mind pool would discourage BH'ers from spamming it in the PvP environment, and I'm simply saying that I seriously doubt it would matter.
There are quite a few Bounty Hunters who think that it would, or there wouldn't be so much debate over it. We have made it clear that we are not asking for a nerf - just a recalibration of pool costs. Meyree for one, thinks that it would ruin the profession. He/she feels that a change to mind drain from action drain would be such a serious nerf that BHs would no longer be able to take out their targets.
*shrug* I don't know. I don't think that it would, but even if Bounty Hunters managed to adapt to the new circumstance (as I asure you, they would), I really don't believe it would be a detriment to the game. Furthermore, just because this isn't a special or class killing change doesn't change the fact that we would like to see it implemented.
I know this isn't how you meant it, but the argument of,"Well, the change wouldn't matter and we would do it anyway, so just keep it the way it is" doesn't hold water with me. I know there would be a difference, and I think it really needs to be looked at, and TESTED on the test servers, not just made live.
SocialConformer wrote:
Meyree for one, thinks that it would ruin the profession. He/she feels that a change to mind drain from action drain would be such a serious nerf that BHs would no longer be able to take out their targets.
Heh. That absolutely isn't true. Eyeshot is very useful to us taking out our marks due to it's blinding effect reducing their accuracy. Generally speaking, the best BH strategy is preventing the mark from ever hitting you in the first place so you can understand the advantage to that. But to go so far as to say that a BH would no longer be able to take out their marks is pretty weak, and entirely false. Unless you suck, which of course some folks do.
The issue may not affect me directly anymore since I've had all those BH styles but abandoned them. Frankly, while I think it would have been an over-reaction to do so... even if Eyeshot had been moved all the way up to Master BH I'd have shrugged it off and carried on. If doing something like that would reduced the people who dabble in BH only for that (the huge PvP advantage it bestows) then I say bring it on. I have a feeling that many people who are truly interested in mastering the BH profession would feel similarly. In other words, the only people who would object to such ideas are those who are taking BH strictly for that PvP pistol uberness.
Regardless, I still think the best solution to all of this is (a) bringing UP riflemen to where you all know they should be, (b) not nerfing other professions that don't in fact need it, (c) addressing the issue with HAM and specifically the mind pool. There's rumors of Squad Leaders perhaps getting a mind pool boost / heal / regen of some type. I'm down with that, totally... and it would be a perfect reason to let the T21 be a totally rockin' rifle again.