Rifleman Archive

Currently, people are b****ing and moaning about Rifleman.

I hear frequently the complaints of NON-Riflemen being very deadly with the Adv.Laser Rifle.

Allow me to suggest a very simple fix for being deadly in a weapon class that your character has no experience in.

*****PART I*****

*** For Pistoleer, Carbineer, and Rifleman, NERF the hell out of General Ranged Accuracy and General Ranged Speed Mods. In return, drastically increase their XXX Accuracy and XXX Speed modifiers for their specialized weapons. These 3 Professions are specialists with their weaopons. Increasing the dependence on weapon specific mods may lessen some of the weapon dabbling, i.e. Pistoleer/Carbineer template killing everything with an Adv.Laser Rifle.

Some general guidelines for them with their specific mods:

Pistoleer- Low Accuracy, Very Fast Speed (More shots off in the dangerous close quarters zone)
Rifleman- Very High Accuracy, Slow speed (Slower attacks, but VERY deadly)
Carbineer- Balanced Accuracy & Speed mods (To reflect the "Jack of All Trades" presentation of Carbineers in SWG)

*** Master Marksman should get a healthy increase of General Ranged Accuracy & General Ranged Speed Mods. Make this box desireable. Make it reflect that a character had to be truly efficient with all ranged weapons to attain Master Marksman... being proficient with Pistols, Carbines, Rifles, etc. This box should be viewed even more as an "enhancer" to the elite ranged professions.

*** Bounty Hunter and Commando: The 2 Ranged, Elite, Hybrid professions. My 2 cents with them...

Bounty Hunter: Needs to maintain the healthy dose of General Ranged XXX mods, the majority of which will be granted at Master Bounty Hunter. A Master Bounty Hunter can master one other elite ranged profession to suit their style. Example: MBH/M.Rifleman. Yes, with his General Ranged mods, he could be decent with a pistol or carbine, but with MBH General Ranged mods, stacked with his M.Rifleman mods, he will always use a Rifle.

Commando: The devs feel in SWG, that Commandos are heavy weapons specialists. My proposal is this for my beloved profession... Lower the General Ranged Accuracy and Speed mods. But increase Heavy Weapons Accuracy and Heavy Weapons Speed Mods. But Heavy Weapons Accuracy needs to be increased alot to raise the damage output for this "Offensive 5" profession.

This is something I thought up when I was talking to a friend in game and playing around with Kodan's Character Builder, trying to figure a template for my return to Commando. This idea is very rough and general, I believe. But it may have some merit.

It became my belief that some of the problems we have is due to the VERY generous General Ranged Mods given out. Lowering these mods (except for the specific areas I mentioned) but increasing the weapon specific mods could lend clearer lines between the ranged professions.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-27-2005 12:25 AM

*****PART II*****

If it is possible from the devs end of things, attach Weapon Specific traits to the specials, but still allow General Ranged Mods to affect it just the same. But keep in mind that the total amount of General Ranged Mods will not be as abundant as it is now if my suggestions are implemented from Part I. It sounds weird, but here's an example:

A Master Rifleman / Master Pistoleer, gets into a fight with his favorite T21 equipped. He wishes to use his Adv.Stopping Shot (M.Pistoleer skill) on his target while his T21 is still equipped. He can still use it, but the Cooldown Timer is longer since the special relies on Pistol & General Ranged mods. And keep in mind from Part I, Rifleman sacrifices speed mods for much higher accuracy.

Another example:

A Master Carbineer / Master Rifleman, wishes to use his Adv.Sniper Shot (M.Rifleman skill)with his E11 Mk.II equipped. He can use the special as normal. However, the already lengthy Cooldown time is increased even more since the special relies on Rifle & General Ranged mods.

Another example: A Master Marksman / Master Pistoleer / Master Rifleman gets into enemy contact with his T21 equipped. He wishes to use Pistoleer's Improved Fan Shot. It fires off normally, the Rifleman is happy. The Cooldown timer however, is a little slower, but not dreadfully slow due to having more General Ranged Mods from Master Marksman. Even with General Ranged mods, he should not expect to fire off Fan Shots as fast with a T21 equipped compared to having a pistol equipped.


What I hope all this accomplishes is that people would want to use their specific weapons more... stuff that their character has training or specialization in. My adjusted system, would still allow cross-profession usage of weapons and specials, but it will not be as efficient compared to having the optimal weapon type equipped and used with the specific profession skill (i.e. a T21 with Adv.Sniper Shot is far more efficent with the Cooldown timer than a Elite Carbine being used for Adv.Sniper Shot).

What I hope this accomplishes:
Pistoleers can quickly spam their specials at their close ranges... with their pistols.

Rifleman can destroy their targets at longer ranges, with their specials and far reaching rifles.

Carbineers are still effective with their carbines, due to the very flexible group of specials they possess. It shouldn't spam specials as fast as a Pistoleer, and they shouldn't annihalate targets in quick order as a Rifle equipped Rifleman.

Again, everyone can use each others specials provided they of course have the skillboxes. But it will not be as fast/efficient compared to using the proper weapon with the proper profession skill.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-26-2005 03:23 AM

Great ideas. I'm all for it.

[Throws flame-proof shield]

But watch out for some Jedi who'll flail at you for taking away Advanced Laser ownage.

/sign

Since this was linked from the commando forum by yourself, I have to point out that since commando gets no specials they have to rely on other professions. Which means that using your system their cooldown timers would be always high.

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icarus-uk wrote:
Since this was linked from the commando forum by yourself, I have to point out that since commando gets no specials they have to rely on other professions. Which means that using your system their cooldown timers would be always high.

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Hmm... that's an interesting one that slipped past me.

How about this proposal in regards to Heavy Weapons:

If the Commando has mastered another Ranged Profession, they can utilize those specials as normal (with full efficiency benefits) while their Heavy Weapons are equipped. If they dabble into other ranged professions without mastering them, then they get 1/2 or 3/4 of the full efficiency on specials cooldown. Commando needs the benefit to Heavy Weapons and specials since Commando has no inherent specials outside of Marksman 0004.

What would my fellow Commando thoughts be in this? I haven't added it into my earlier Part I & II since I want to see if this is acceptable.

Edit to add: Here's another option for Heavy Weapons.
Flag all the ranged specials to be able to use Heavy Weapons mods with no restriction. Commando will be then dependent on its Heavy Weapons Accuracy & Speed mods. Remember, in my original proposal, Commando will receive very low General Ranged Mods, and would totally depend on Heavy Weapons Mods (which I suggested to be drastically increased to make up for it, esp. accuracy).

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-26-2005 10:07 AM

fix broken, don't nerf working.

simple, and yet it hasn't happened yet.

Do I look like a Dev? Do I have a red SOE tag on me?

My friend, I too would love to see all broken things fixed. Then again, how long have we all been awaiting things to be fixed? Are you a Commando or have spent extensive time in Pre-CU SWG as one? Then you'd know about that.

But the problem with some people isn't with broken specials in this rift between Pistoleers & Riflemen.

There are people complaining about the system, which IMO, is fine for most parts. But my proposal tries to keep this freestyle system going but at the same time putting clearer lines between the professions.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-26-2005 07:07 PM

This rift doesnt exist. Pistoleers are crowd control which they exceed at, rifleman are all about damage. A rifleman that picks up pistoleer or pistoleer that picks up rifleman shouldnt be penalized for doing so. They invested the skills points into what they wished and made certain other sacrifices. Example: I'm one of those dreaded MBH/MR/0404 Pistoleers but you know I have no healing abilities at all other then stims? I sacrificed everything for great damage and some decent crowd control. So when I come up against someone with some decent damage and healing generally I find myself not able to do jack all to them because of it. People with crowd control templates need to learn they cant do everything and depend on others to accomplish things just like I have to depend on someone to keep me alive to do damage. I don't mind people using ALRs even if they dont have a single rifle skill though Id like to see some type of nice weapon at master rifleman (maybe a kinetic t21 or the like).

Instead of going around changing everything I think everything needs to be fixed first. Example: did you know stun is supposed to stop action regen? There are a ton of things that arent working right now like that, that if fixed would change things up quiet a bit and make it so that you to work together with a well rounded group.

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Donder wrote:

hmmm....

The only part I like, is lowering the general accuracy and speed, and increasing the weapon specific accuracy and speed.

BTW, you did forget Smuggler. They are a ranged profession.

I do not agree with increasing the general modifiers for Bounty Hunters. In fact lower them slightly, but increase weapon specific modifiers in each of the pistol/carbine/rifle trees under BH. Let them decide a Weapon of Choice. That will still get all the special actions under BH, as well as any for their choosen weapon. The stackable accuracy and speed modifiers will make choosing a full Combat profession Imperative to thier survival, as it should be.

Outside of novice Marksman, my character has no Pistol or Carbine skills, yet he is deadly with them. Not good.

I agree that the major concern of others is the CL 54 weapons, (of all classes), that are just as deadly in the hands of one not proficient, as they are in the hands of a Master. This includes any CL 54 character, even melee classes, using a weapon that is vastly different. aka swordsman using an advanced laser rifle, or a rifleman using a CL 54 sword. In my opinion this is just ridiculous, I mean, why even have combat professions?

Bunker/Donner

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I left out Smuggler intentionally for one reason: I have never played a Smuggler, and I don't want to promote possibly breaking changes for the profession. I don't know how the feel & theme is supposed to be smuggler. That's why I skipped them.

As for Bounty Hunter reliance on General Ranged Mods, there are several reasons, in no particular order:
* Bounty Hunters, of all the ranged professions, have no forced preference of weapons, i.e. Carbine, Rifle, Pistol, or even Heavy Weapon mods. What makes BH really nice is that it gives a player a chance to choose an accompanying Elite Ranged Profession to fit his idea of how he wants his Bounty Hunter to be.

* Remember, in my suggestions in Part I... the total amount of General Ranged XXX mods will be lessened nearly everywhere, EXCEPT for M.Marksman and Bounty Hunter. Even Commando, in my suggestion, will take far less General Ranged Mods in favor of Heavy Weapons Mods. So the threat of Bounty Hunters walking around with mountains of General Ranged Mods will not happen with my suggestions. He can gain more of course by getting M.Marksman, but that is also less SPs to dabble with.

You also said this: "Outside of novice Marksman, my character has no Pistol or Carbine skills, yet he is deadly with them. Not good."
- My answer is this: This will not happen with my fixes. Remember, the total amount General Ranged Mods will be severely lowered in favor of Weapon Specific Ranged Mods. You can kick butt with your when you have your Pistol and Carbine equipped. You can try equipping your Adv.Laser Rifle but you will not wipe the floor with your opponents by using it.

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Nisdain wrote:
This rift doesnt exist. Pistoleers are crowd control which they exceed at, rifleman are all about damage. A rifleman that picks up pistoleer or pistoleer that picks up rifleman shouldnt be penalized for doing so. They invested the skills points into what they wished and made certain other sacrifices. Example: I'm one of those dreaded MBH/MR/0404 Pistoleers but you know I have no healing abilities at all other then stims? I sacrificed everything for great damage and some decent crowd control. So when I come up against someone with some decent damage and healing generally I find myself not able to do jack all to them because of it. People with crowd control templates need to learn they cant do everything and depend on others to accomplish things just like I have to depend on someone to keep me alive to do damage. I don't mind people using ALRs even if they dont have a single rifle skill though Id like to see some type of nice weapon at master rifleman (maybe a kinetic t21 or the like).

Instead of going around changing everything I think everything needs to be fixed first. Example: did you know stun is supposed to stop action regen? There are a ton of things that arent working right now like that, that if fixed would change things up quiet a bit and make it so that you to work together with a well rounded group.

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I know what you're saying... I like the current system, but if you believe there is no rift between the professions, then later Publishes with increaed Rifleman/Rifle Nerfs may surprise you.

Publish 19 is a tiny step in that direction. A Nerfing of a profession is uncommonly done in one, nasty publish.

Hmm, I'm liking the idea of specific weapon mods over general but I dont see how Pistoleers will benefit. The current Pistoleer whinge is that they are out ranged, out damaged, and everyone can use their nifty specials. Its really hard to work out adjustments for professions that are still in the process of being adjusted, so I think we should really hold off a little while longer and see what happens.
What I would like to see is decent Master weapons, it irks me that the ALR, a CL 54 only wep, is usually a better rifle then the Master Riflemans T21. If this is fixed I'm sure you'll see a lot more Master Rifleman/carbineer/pistoleers using weapons of their class and I think that plus the specific over general mod idea would be enough.

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Warmaker01 wrote:

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Nisdain wrote:
This rift doesnt exist. Pistoleers are crowd control which they exceed at, rifleman are all about damage. A rifleman that picks up pistoleer or pistoleer that picks up rifleman shouldnt be penalized for doing so. They invested the skills points into what they wished and made certain other sacrifices. Example: I'm one of those dreaded MBH/MR/0404 Pistoleers but you know I have no healing abilities at all other then stims? I sacrificed everything for great damage and some decent crowd control. So when I come up against someone with some decent damage and healing generally I find myself not able to do jack all to them because of it. People with crowd control templates need to learn they cant do everything and depend on others to accomplish things just like I have to depend on someone to keep me alive to do damage. I don't mind people using ALRs even if they dont have a single rifle skill though Id like to see some type of nice weapon at master rifleman (maybe a kinetic t21 or the like).

Instead of going around changing everything I think everything needs to be fixed first. Example: did you know stun is supposed to stop action regen? There are a ton of things that arent working right now like that, that if fixed would change things up quiet a bit and make it so that you to work together with a well rounded group.

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I know what you're saying... I like the current system, but if you believe there is no rift between the professions, then later Publishes with increaed Rifleman/Rifle Nerfs may surprise you.

Publish 19 is a tiny step in that direction. A Nerfing of a profession is uncommonly done in one, nasty publish.

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Explain where the rift is? Pistoleers can pick up an ALR and do great damage and have the range rifleman do, rifleman can pick up pistoleer specials and be pretty good at crowd control. If there is a rift it isnt between rifleman and pistoleers, its between ranged vs melee.

Pistoleers ask "why should I use a pistol when I can use a rifle and kick ass with it". Rifleman ask "Why should I be a rifleman when I can pick up other professions, use an ALR and do better damage and have a more versatile abilities to boot." High accuracy means pretty much diddly against anyone except Jedi because even if you have 1000 more accuracy then the ot her character has defense it caps at 250 which means you do a whopping 175 damage extra, take armor into account then: 87, 88 extra damage. Woo! Remove the caps and then stacking accuracy or defense is the way to go.. just like pre CU. The other thing: in your system I fire a special from across profession. Is that re-use timer going to be used compared to my weapon or my pistol speed? If its my pistol speed and I'm a master pistoleer... big wow, you still have that problem with someone with a rifle using pistol specials at 65m at no penalty. On the other hand you could base it off the weapon's speed in which case my rifle is only a bit slower then a pistol and I have barely any penalty. *Or* you could do some artifical modifier that because I have a rifle equiped and even though its a .0001 speed rifle I still get large wind up timers for cross profession specials. In which case why would I bother getting a bunch of those skills? Right now you have people grabbing a lot of skills in favor of having a lot of firepower and crowd control. They die pretty easily though if you have even a handful of medic skills though. If you dont penalize for cross profession specials in your system enough, nothing changes. IF you penalize them too much they'll say hell with it, drop which ever skills they were dabbling in and pick up medic. Then youll have professions who are mostly crowd control crying that they cant out damage the healing they do.

The system right now is rock, paper, scisscors but it seems that pistoleers are the rock, rifleman are paper and healers are scisscors. But guess what? I'll almost guarentee you that any of those that have any healing. If they did they'd find out one on one they could outheal anything a rifleman could throw at them. What else do those pistoleers have I really wonder. The ones I know in game dabble in commando and use their abilities with AoE to apply states to huge numbers of people at once. A master pistoleer/master smuggler dabbling in commando is a scary thing, so much that if I know one is on the other side we'll target him first because he can drastically change the tide of battle more so then any other non-jedi. Once hes dead you move onto any non-jedi, and finally onto the Jedi in the end (might change now that pub 19 is coming out about the order you take Jedi out in).

Pistoleers can make just as an effective template as rifleman.