Rifleman Archive

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GriffinsMyth wrote:
Hmm, I'm liking the idea of specific weapon mods over general but I dont see how Pistoleers will benefit. The current Pistoleer whinge is that they are out ranged, out damaged, and everyone can use their nifty specials. Its really hard to work out adjustments for professions that are still in the process of being adjusted, so I think we should really hold off a little while longer and see what happens.
What I would like to see is decent Master weapons, it irks me that the ALR, a CL 54 only wep, is usually a better rifle then the Master Riflemans T21. If this is fixed I'm sure you'll see a lot more Master Rifleman/carbineer/pistoleers using weapons of their class and I think that plus the specific over general mod idea would be enough.

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In my suggestions, Pistoleers, with their Pistols equipped, can spam their attacks fast. While other professions with non-pistol weapons CAN use Pistoleer specials (provided they have the skillboxes), they will not be as efficient (fast) with it. Their Cooldown timers will be noticeably low. Remember, with my suggestions, the total amount of General Ranged Mods will be drastically cut down in favor of Weapon Specific Mods. Again, there are 2 spots which grant healthy doses of General Ranged Mods with my suggestion: Bounty Hunter and Master Marksman.

On an unrelated note to my thread, I too would like to see "CL 54, Master XXX" weapons be of a higher quality than mere CL 54 weapons.

Edit to add: I'm putting in Part 1 that the majority of General Ranged Mods for Bounty Hunter will be granted at Master.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-27-2005 12:24 AM

This will be the last time I will allow myself to drift Off-Topic on this thread which I'm trying to keep on-course. So...

There are pistoleers out there that have HUGE problems against Rifles.

Rifle ranges are greater than Pistols. That holds true in real life. They don't like that.

Rifles do more damage than a Pistol. Also true in real life. But in real life, Rifles also penetrate more. They don't like that.

Rifles are still useful in close quarters. Same in real life. Not as handy in tight spaces as a Sub-Machine Gun, Pistol, or Carbine, but you can make it work, esp. with training. I know I can with my given job. They don't like that.

Riflemen are accurate with their Rifles. The ONLY reason Rifleman can hit decently and with good damage is due to the great Rife Accuracy Mod we get. They don't like that.

They seem to have a problem with Riflemen using Stopping Shot, but yet I bet they have no problem by using Carbineer, Smuggler, Rifleman, or Bounty Hunter specials.

If you don't believe me if there are definite cries to Nerf Rifleman from within the Pistoleer Community, take a look at their forum. As a matter of fact, the Pistoleer Correspondent CREATED and STICKIED the thread. There are pleas for more powerful pistols to shoot out to 64m... the vaunted max.range of most Rifles. There are pleas to put an absolute minimum firing range on Rifles or severe accuracy penalties on closer ranges.

It's all there for you to read around in.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-27-2005 09:16 PM

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Warmaker01 wrote:
This will be the last time I will allow myself to drift Off-Topic on this thread which I'm trying to keep on-course. So...

There are pistoleers out there that have HUGE problems against Rifles.

Rifle ranges are greater than Pistols. That holds true in real life. They don't like that.

Rifles do more damage than a Pistol. Also true in real life. But in real life, Rifles also penetrate more. They don't like that.

Rifles are still useful in close quarters. Same in real life. Not as handy in tight spaces as a Sub-Machine Gun, Pistol, or Carbine, but you can make it work, esp. with training. I know I can with my given job. They don't like that.

Riflemen are accurate with their Rifles. The ONLY reason Rifleman can hit decently and with good damage is due to the great Rife Accuracy Mod we get. They don't like that.

They seem to have a problem with Riflemen using Stopping Shot, but yet I bet they have no problem by using Carbineer, Smuggler, Rifleman, or Bounty Hunter specials.

If you don't believe me if there are definite cries to Nerf Rifleman from within the Pistoleer Community, take a look at their forum. As a matter of fact, the Pistoleer Correspondent CREATED and STICKIED the thread. There are pleas for more powerful pistols to shoot out to 64m... the vaunted max.range of most Rifles. There are pleas to put an absolute minimum firing range on Rifles or severe accuracy penalties on closer ranges.

It's all there for you to read around in.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-27-2005 09:16 PM

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Riflemen are accurate with their Rifles. The ONLY reason Rifleman can hit decently and with good damage is due to the great Rife Accuracy Mod we get. They don't like that.

No it isnt, its because the basic stats on our weapons. Accuracy means pratically didly when it comes to damage and the only time you should really worry about /aim in PVP is when you're dealing with MDef Jedi. Only when you're in a situation where the other guy has a ton of defense is a Rifleman's "massive" accuracy going to help em. I believe you that there are pistoleers crying for nerfs on us, but honestly thats been happening since before the CU tbh. They have no reason to complain either. They can pick up an ALR and do their specials at max range and do pretty great damage, they have level 54 kinetic weapons that if they wanted to get into range and use they could. They can make us fight them on their turf, if they want us to fight on their turf they can just stand behind a corner and make us come to them. They dont need any rifle skills to use an ALR at 65m and they'll do well against anyone other then a TK or Jedi with Aura up. They honestly just want everything handed to them on a silver platter instead of thinking for half a minute in combat. I've read the threads over there and their "issues" are bull.

Example: One guy was complaining that durning the phase of the village where you attack those bases, capture the commander and escort him back he could do nothing because the rifleman in the group were rooting targets beyond his range. Well lets see what you can do.
A) Switch to an ALR.. and I can maybe understand why this might be distasteful to a pistoleer but its a valid option
B) I dunno, maybe tell the group to WAIT for stuff to get closer before rooting it? Its more *efficient* to have everyone damaging the target and having the pistoleer apply the states. If they don't they're morons and the guy ought to find a better group.
C) Not think at all, come to the forums and cry. Unforunately this is what most people do.

So honestly, if they want a solution to their problems - its to think. Pick up some BH for some nice damage (god knows we have to so that we can do some decent damage) and pick up CM. They'll be able to outheal pretty much any single target among countless other things. If they truely cant figure it out, they can drop by STarsider and I'll respec a character over into a pistol template and show em it works.

I'm a pistoleer and a rifleman (and carbineer but thats neither here nor there in this topic) and find my kinetic pistol is preferable in close quarters to my energy rifle. I rarely use my carbine though, anyway, point is, whats to stop a pistoleer using an ALR to root thier target with advance stopping then closing the distance to pistols. Even if the rifleman gets stopping on them its usually Improved at most and will wear off before the Pistoleers on does. Disarm also drives rifleman nuts.

Basically the nerf calls are from Pistoleers who want the game to cater for them and as yet have not grasped the concept of the CU, and the use of varyied weapons. Let them whinge for now, devs aren't gonna give pistols rifle range or put a min range on rifles. 20m sniper range is as far as its gonna get *fingers crossed*

There are pistols that come pretty close to rifle damage capability.

Pistols are also generally faster.

They also generally have lower SAC than Rifles' immense SAC. Only Commando Hvy Weapons have higher SAC on average, and even then, we fire relatively slow with them.

Also, consider this:
A PURE Rifleman Template's Ranged Mods:
Gen.Ranged Accuracy +105
Rifle Accuracy + 85
Total Accuracy = 190
Gen.Ranged Speed +20
Rifle Speed +65
Total Speed = 85
Ranged Defense +100
Rifle Defense +30
Total Ranged Defense = 130

A PURE Pistoleer Template's Ranged Mods:
Gen.Ranged Accuracy +105
Pistol Accuracy +40
Total Accuracy = 145
Gen.Ranged Speed +25
Pistol Speed +45
Total Pistol Speed = 70
Ranged Defense +85
Pistol Defense +50
Total Ranged Defense = 135

Accuracy and Range are Rifleman's greatest strengths. If Sniper Shot is pulled off properly, then damage is also. Greatest detractors? High SAC, lower speeds, poor Melee Defense, and a lack of variety of specials.

Pistoleer's greatest strengths: Speed, great utility specials, higher defenses, and comparable damage to Carbineer. Greatest detractors? Limited range.

Again with accuracy: Accuracy makes a big difference. A Rifleman has a higher total accuracy over a Pistoleer by a value of +45. 45 is a big difference in damage output.
* My M.Rifleman / MCM / Doctor 4000 does FAR less damage than my M.Marksman / M.Rifleman / M.Carbineer / Pistoleer 3404 character.

* With the latter template, the TOTAL Accuracy with Rifles is +345. I can do ALOT of damage with that accuracy. The previous template only yielded a total accuracy of +190. With the high accuracy of the latter template, in practically EVERY group I am with, I attract the aggro. I am the tank. I do the most damage.

Same with all rifleman it seems, and that crap Recon armour dont help in PvE. I'd be glad if armour drops its req professions.

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GriffinsMyth wrote:
Same with all rifleman it seems, and that crap Recon armour dont help in PvE. I'd be glad if armour drops its req professions.

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In PVE, there is one place where Recon Armor really shines: Against ranged NPCs. This includes everything from pirates to factional NPCs.

I like the idea. I respeced from rifleman to pistoleer, and I'm mainly following the pistoleer forums now, though I pop in here every so often.

First off, if you read the stickied thread in the pistoleer forums, it's actually one of the more constructive and mature threads I've read across any of the forums here. Far more than anything on the jedi/bh forums. There is not a cry for a nerf (though some opinions may come across as that, for example min range, which I am whole-heartedly against), just a balance. Like in my sig, balance != nerf.

Secondly, after moving from rifles to pistols, pistols suck! Big time! No, really! Stun doesn't work, half the specials are only good against groups of critters, but then you don't want them all coming at you at once, making it a moot special. They are saying the don't want to have to resort to using the ALR to get the extra range - they want to be able to do what they do better.

I actually think the old pre-cu accuracy modifiers for range should be re-introduced. Then range becomes the same problem that they had before. Like someone said here - pistols don't fire as far as rifles. Not strictly true - they can fire as far, but with no where near the same accuracy as a rifle. They should be able to shoot further than 35m, but whether they hit or not is a completely different matter. It's this hard max range cap that makes pistols weaker now than before, especially if a rifleman can dabble in pistols (or even master it) and use their own specials against them, so they can't even try and hit back.

This may have gone slightly off topic, and I apologise, but I need to say that the pistoleer thread isn't a nerf thread - its one of the few, proper 'balance' threads I've read.

It's times like this I wish there was a general 'ranged' forum - the audience would be far bigger and far more diverse than it is now, where we have to rely on linking between posts about cross-profession topics.