Rifleman Archive

Thread: Our 3rd Question(Version 2.1)- All Riflemen, Please Read. [Updated Again!]

Sotaudi
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:15 pm
#79




XaverriJade7 wrote:









Here is our 1st question to the Devs and their reply to us. Followingit is a proposed 3rd question as a follow-up. I would like as many Riflemen to comment on it as possible and providerelevant feedback. Whether you want to be a Sniper, Infantryman, or something else altogether, we wanna hear what you have to say! Thanks!


Note: The most updated version of this question which is also on page 2, has been moved here so it is easier for everyone to find


Question 1:


Rifleman: What is the Development team’s vision for Rifleman with the upcoming combat system overhaul?


Development Team: The vision for the rifleman hasn’t changed. They are still intended to be the long range snipers and that will stay the same. What will change is the mechanical balance - - especially with the HAM revamp portion of the CB. The new HAM system will be much more dynamic and as a result will change the focus on “mind hits”. I don’t know to what degree, but that is something that will surely be looked at.


(Proposed)Question 3:


Given the constraints of the current battle system, the Rifleman class does not feel that their role canfit that of a sniper. A sniper needs range(in excess of 300 meters), concealment(radar invisibility), and power that results in the majority of kills requiring but a single shot(think in terms of 10x our current damage or greater). These requirements cannot be met now and even if they were feasible following the Combat Rebalance, it would severely overpower the Rifleman class and imbalance the entire combat system.


Since being a true sniper is not possible given the above limitations, we would like to see the Rifleman profession shaped as more of a hybrid between a Sniper and a standard Infantryman. Many Riflemen feel that our Mindshots and Headshots are toomuch a part of what 'makes us what we are'to just give them up in order to make us purely Infantry. This fits with your stated vision of us. However, as many(or more) members of the Rifleman community feel our AoEs are too integral to the profession to give up even though they do not fit the Sniper role, but rather that of the Infantryman. As it is now, the Rifleman profession is very close to this hybrid and would require very little change aside from fixing a few broken or redundant specials. (Yes, we know- in addition to whatever the CB brings )


All that said, our 3rd question to the Development Team is this: Do you agree with the above and will you work to adjust your views to reflect this or do you see the Rifleman profession as one of 'sniping and nothing more'? Please explain why or why not. Thank you!


Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 06-03-200410:19 AM


Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 06-03-200404:23 PM


Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 06-11-200404:30 PM


Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 06-11-200404:39 PM




I am concerned with the statement that it is our AoEs that make us Infantry. I would be greatly suprised ifthe combat balancetook away our area effect shots since, basically, all combat professions have AoE shots.Will we really feelsafe ifwe are firing Strafeshot2 at 4 or 5 seconds per shot? Remember, there is word that "slow weapons will fire slow even in the hands of a Master, just not as slow as Novice." It is not just the fact that we can hit multiple targets (everyone can). Our speed is what makes us effective. Thus, I would change that paragraphto say:


Given the above limitations, Rifleman is not currently nor can it be a true sniper, so the Rifleman community feels the profession has to be a hybrid between a sniper and a standard infantryman. We have shots that target the head and affect the mind pool, and many of us do not want to see that changed even given the intent to make the mind pool less the deciding factor in PvP. This, and Concealshot,is the sniper aspect of the profession. But we also have high speed and area effect shots, which makes us more like the standard infantryman.Given ourlack of status effect shots, many, if not more, of us do not feel that the profession can survive in PvP without this. As it is now, the Rifleman profession is very close to this hybrid and would require very little change aside from fixing a few broken or redundant specials. (Yes, we know- in addition to whatever the CB brings )


Given what we already know, speed is going to be nerfed. I would hate to see them think, "Okay, we cannot make them snipers, so let's leave them with the area effect shots, but go ahead with the powerful, slow weapons." We need to force them to address this now.




Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



XaverriJade7
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:20 pm
#80




Sotaudi wrote:





XaverriJade7 wrote:









Lots of stuff




I am concerned with the statement that it is our AoEs that make us Infantry. I would be greatly suprised ifthe combat balancetook away our area effect shots since, basically, all combat professions have AoE shots.Will we really feelsafe ifwe are firing Strafeshot2 at 4 or 5 seconds per shot? Remember, there is word that "slow weapons will fire slow even in the hands of a Master, just not as slow as Novice." It is not just the fact that we can hit multiple targets (everyone can). Our speed is what makes us effective. Thus, I would change that paragraphto say:


Given the above limitations, Rifleman is not currently nor can it be a true sniper, so the Rifleman community feels the profession has to be a hybrid between a sniper and a standard infantryman. We have shots that target the head and affect the mind pool, and many of us do not want to see that changed even given the intent to make the mind pool less the deciding factor in PvP. This, and Concealshot,is the sniper aspect of the profession. But we also have high speed and area effect shots, which makes us more like the standard infantryman.Given ourlack of status effect shots, many, if not more, of us do not feel that the profession can survive in PvP without this. As it is now, the Rifleman profession is very close to this hybrid and would require very little change aside from fixing a few broken or redundant specials. (Yes, we know- in addition to whatever the CB brings )


Given what we already know, speed is going to be nerfed. I would hate to see them think, "Okay, we cannot make them snipers, so let's leave them with the area effect shots, but go ahead with the powerful, slow weapons." We need to force them to address this now.






Great point, I feel so dumb for not catching that Thanks- updating it now!


EDIT: Question got sent off before my update. Hopefully it'll all work out though

Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 06-16-2004 05:28 PM





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iseinip
Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:22 am
#81
I'm not sure why people keep bringing up sniper... its 1.. i repeat 1 of the branches of rifleman... but so is soldier.. so what are we snipers or soldiers.


Lets look at the facts the only weapon that even resembles a "sniper" weapon is the tusken rifle and you get that in the marksman tree and no one uses it so thats out of the question. The DXR6-b disruptor rifle. Comes with a scope on it so some may think its a sniper rifle. Its a modified carbine its no where near a sniper rifle. The T21long barrel rather large weapon. Could be a sinper rifle but it has no stock so where are we supposed to put this thing to steady it?


Now for the soldier side of it. Lets look at the riflemanweapons from a soldiers standpoint. DXR6it being a modified carbine it fires fast not as fast as the carbine but fast none the less, and its more accurate then the carbine version plus it has more power. The T21 large heavy armor piercing high damage weapon and its a light repeating blaster which means it shoots pretty fast. It can be shot by one person.


With the range limitations and the types of weapons we have there is no way we are snipers. It just can't happen. I do have an idea that might balance the ranged proffs but might make some people mad.


Pistols- Slowest firing, lowest damage,medium accuracy, highest defenses, best status effects and knockdowns.

pistols is supposed to be a last resort weapon meaning its used to get you out of a sticky situation.


Carbines- Fastest firing, medium damage, least accuracy, medium defenses, most AOE attacks.

I view carbines as SMG's and SMG's generally fire faster then most rifles.


Rifles- Medium speed, highest damage, best accuracy, low defenses, most single pool attacks.

rifles are supposed to be accurate but also fire rather quickly but since the guns are larger and heavier then the others a riflemans defenses should be lower.



Expect the worst and hope for the best and you'll never be disappointed.
Nevaryn
Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:20 am
#82
Here's what I would think would make both snipers wannabe's and soldier wannabe's happy. Just keep the rifleman tree the way it is... high rifle speed, but simply change the snipe ability. It does the deathblow from range, but if you changed it around you could make it do 10Xdamage to a target's mind pool, but at a severe to hit penalty if the target isn't still and a severe time wait between the snipe and a second shot. This will fit the idea that a sniper should be waiting for just the right opportunity to get the one-hit kill. If the time penalty is big enough and the to-hit penalty for a moving target is severe enough, even for a master rifleman, then we would all wait for the proper opportunity to use the ability otherwise if the target moves the shot is almost guaranteed to miss and you have to wait a long time for the next shot.


On the soldier side of the argument, you simply don't have to choose to use the ability, you still have your nice to hit modifiers at range, but get to shoot normal shots at a decent rate of fire.


Of course, I agree that extra range only makes sense, and addressing the range penalty modifiers... it is silly that moving 1-2 meters should make a +/- 30 to my hit modifier would be a good step towards making the rifleman class what it should be.
honoimasu
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:09 am
#83
Personally, I would much rather the revamp go down the gunner path than the sniper. After all, the only time you see a T21 in the movie, its mounted on a tripod and fired at the Millenium Falcon



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Coran_Sienar
Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:17 am
#84
Actually, that was the E-Web, not the T-21. The T-21 was in Episode IV in the detention block where Chewie gunned down several Stormtrooperswhile shooting it from the hip. (God, I can't believe I know this.)



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slaier0702
Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:19 am
#85
A thought about the limitations on the 64m game mechanics.

Now I know next to nothing about being a Rifleman, I only opened that level last night. I've read on this forum that 64m for the firing a weapon is an intregral limitation of the coding of SWG. Bah......


With the integration of SWG and JTL the limitation or the firing of a weapon must be MUCH greater the 64m, can you imagine being in your fighter and needing to be looking into your enemy's exhaust to firea weapon! SoE has stated that the expansion is integrated into the core game, so where is the 64m limitation?
NatasMai
Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:14 am
#86
One thing everyone including the devsseems to be forgeting, is that the t-21 is a LIGHT REPEATING BLASTER RIFLE. Which means it is a light energy machinegun, not, I repeat, not a sniper rifle. Its the Star Warsversion of the m249SAW or the m60. The devs need to go take a look at modern military weapons. Pistols are of course pistols, carbines are basically submachineguns that fire assualt rifle ammo like the 5.56 nato round and the 7.62mm russian round, rifles on the other hand are varied in their design and purpose, from sniperand huntingrifles,to true light machineguns, to assualt and battle rifles. Not to mention limiting our range to 64 meters is just plain stupid. Go ask any accomplished marksman how far they could snipe something from with a high powered rifle or even a high powered pistol. I'll tell you right now its a hell ofa lot farther than 64 meters, and they aren't using energy weapons.Don't get me wrong, I like this game better than any other mmorpg thats around right now. But sony had screwed the pooch on ranged weapons in this game. If they want rifleman to be snipers, fine, give us some sniper rifles and move the t-21 to the commando class. Or better yet split the rifle man class into 2 different classes snipers and infantryman. My whole point is that sony needs to fire some devs and invest some of their billions of dollars into a database that classifies weapons correctly and allows us to shoot farther than 64 meters.



You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution.
Waste93
Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:34 am
#87




NatasMai wrote:

One thing everyone including the devsseems to be forgeting, is that the t-21 is a LIGHT REPEATING BLASTER RIFLE. Which means it is a light energy machinegun, not, I repeat, not a sniper rifle. Its the Star Warsversion of the m249SAW or the m60. The devs need to go take a look at modern military weapons. Pistols are of course pistols, carbines are basically submachineguns that fire assualt rifle ammo like the 5.56 nato round and the 7.62mm russian round, rifles on the other hand are varied in their design and purpose, from sniperand huntingrifles,to true light machineguns, to assualt and battle rifles. Not to mention limiting our range to 64 meters is just plain stupid. Go ask any accomplished marksman how far they could snipe something from with a high powered rifle or even a high powered pistol. I'll tell you right now its a hell ofa lot farther than 64 meters, and they aren't using energy weapons.Don't get me wrong, I like this game better than any other mmorpg thats around right now. But sony had screwed the pooch on ranged weapons in this game. If they want rifleman to be snipers, fine, give us some sniper rifles and move the t-21 to the commando class. Or better yet split the rifle man class into 2 different classes snipers and infantryman. My whole point is that sony needs to fire some devs and invest some of their billions of dollars into a database that classifies weapons correctly and allows us to shoot farther than 64 meters.




A couple corrections. The M60 is a GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun), not a LMG (Light Machine Gun). So the T21 is not like the M60. It's like the SAW, but with more power.


Sub-machine guns do NOT fire assualt rifle ammo. Subguns by definition fire pistol ammo. Carbines can fire assault rifle ammo. Examples of a subgun are the H&K MP5 (9mm), UZI (9mm), and MAC-10 (.45). Carbine examples are the M4 carbine (5.56mm) and the M1 Carbine (.30 carbine).





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furlock1
Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:53 pm
#88
they are doiong that with Force sensativity.




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furlock1
Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:54 pm
#89
They are doing that with Force sensativity.. hmm wonder what a Jedi Rifleman would be like.





Esre Ai-eomo
Imperial Inquisitoria/Hand of the Emperor
Sith

(gnn[[[[[[[[[[nnnnWX9ggggggggggggggggggggg)


Through Knowledge I gain Understanding

Through Understanding I gain Self Mastery

Through that Mastery I gain Honor

In the virtues of Loyalty, Honor and Obeyance

I find my place in the Force, I am one with it.

There can be no Light without Dark,

No Dark without Light,

The Force is in all things and I am within it.
Xodarap777
Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:58 am
#90
I don't think that the sniper idea needs to be so unbalanced. As it stands, every profession hits at an insane speed at master. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- in the long run, it is damage/second that matters for the purpose of balancing. If riflemen shoot at 1/10th the speed of other professions, they can do 10x the damage. Add that to a horrible inability to move while shooting, and a partial inability to stand while shooting, and you've got balance in a sniper. This is also exactly what I would like riflement to be. This also fits with ranged deathblows.

Sure, there might be whiners in PvP, complaining that they got one-shotted by a rifleman, but that will teach people to travel in groups. Any group would destroy the sniper. And the sniper would learn to keep friends nearby, too, then. This adds a party dynamic to PvP that should exist. Just as the party dynamic has been lost from PvE, and needs to return (soloing enraged rancor lairs while reading a book is boring and ridiculous), the same is true of PvP.


Think about it this way. In the real world, in real war, there are snipers. There are also lots of other professions and roles. The sniper can one-shot anyone, and hide himself from view. But no one complains that the sniper is "overpowered." The sniper is simply best at what he does. There is balance found in the whole strategy; in tactics. You can't just say, "No fair, I can't do that."


A sniper has many weaknesses. That is the balance.


(Oh, and obviously, enhanced range is unbalancing...)



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Xodarap777
Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:08 am
#91
Actually, another idea. I think it would be great if it could be implemented, but it would require a fairly severe change in game mechanics, and I don't know how well the devs would look at it...


Anyways, the idea is a sniper shot. It would, of course, be a one-shot kill. Here's the catch: it *charges* before it fires. This is like the long pause-time after a shot, but more balancing, and it would even be balancing in 1-on-1. While it's charging, the chance to hit could go down severely if the target moves, and it would simply fail if the sniper moves. It could only be done from cover. This is beyond balanced, and would probably be used rarely and only while perfectly safe. It also makes perfect sense, as a sniper must line up a shot. This shot would DB if it kills, as part of the same shot. This certainly is not "uber" enough to unbalance the class, and would probably fit in with the devs' plan. It would certainly be fun, and fit in with my vision of riflemen


I think this should be brought up to the devs, even if it would require the first ever move to charge before, instead of after, the attack.



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