Rifleman Archive

Thread: Our 3rd Question(Version 2.1)- All Riflemen, Please Read. [Updated Again!]

Onichi
Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:05 pm
#53


Latest 19 answers...


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=in_live&message.id=15830#M15830





Rifleman


Why do we have +40 (or so) at 60m with a laser rifle, and then -50 at 64m? Will range modifiers be reviewed in the new balances?


Again, absolutely. These changes are they types of things we want to address in the Combat Balance.





Umm... isn't the question in this thread supposed to be our question? or is that for the next round? *This Wookiee is confused*



In the immortal words of the mighty Chewbacca "MUAAAAAAAARRRRRRrrrgh!"
Imperial Leiutenant

Official Rifleman's Motto: Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most.
"If you can see it without a scope, it aint Sniping"
Sotaudi
Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:10 pm
#54




JayBurns wrote:

Currently a rifleman at master gets more speed bonus than a master pistoleer,and a master marksmen/riflemen/+2 riflespeed tape can hit the speed cap with anything. This is absurd because a pistoleercan't even hit the speed cap on most pistols at master, they would have to pick up a few tabs from bounty hunter to equal the speed of riflemen (that's an extra77 skill points, just to master scout). And to add insult to injury, pistols don't have near the damage or AP of riflemen. What if they pinched a little riflespeed from the tree, just enough to make a master pistoleer and master riflemen do the same DPS. Would many of you be opposed to taking the riflemen down a few notches?


I'm just interested, because it seems this thread is mostly about improving riflemen, which frankly I don't think it needs.


Welcoming your constructive input,


JBurns







This is the oldest argument in the game, and it has been hashed and rehashed in these forums ad infinitum, so I will not bother going into detail here. If you want more difinitive anwers, check any of the thousand nerf cries that have been discussed on these boards.


Let me leave it at saying just this.Combatis not just about DPS. It never has been. If it were only about DPS, then all DPS would be equal, and the only difference betweeen the professions would be the rate of fire and per shot damage. And combat would be nothing more than people standing toe-to-toe or at range shooting until one person drops. Which is why people complain about our DPS, because they want to basically do that, and are at a disadvantage when they try.


It is always amusing to me to see people complain that they cannot hit the speed cap unless they pickup another profession. As you pointed out, even if we pickup Master Marksman -- a profession that is also available to Pistoleers and Carbineers -- we are not able to cap without picking up speed tapes, an option available to Pistoleers as well. Yet, also as you pointed out, you can pickup BH to hit the cap. You can also, alternatively, go to Smuggler to pickup additional pistol help. But once we hit Master Rifle, outside of Master Marksman, there is no place else we can go to improve our rifle skills.


So basically what you are saying is that we should have our speed lowered to give us the same DPS as a Master Pistoleer, then sit there helplessly as that Master Pistoleer goes out and picks up more speed and morespecialsby picking up BH (which also allows him to attack our mind, using Health and Action, while we, when we attack mind, also use our own mind). Of course, if we complained that your DPS was now more than ours, you would say, "Well, of course it is. I spent more points so I deserve a higher DPS."


Yet, at the same time the argument to reduce our speed to make our DPS equal never requests that other professions pickup our weaknesses. For instance, no one seems to want our weakness to melee, or the fact that we have no status effects other than Stun (useful) and Dizzy (barely useful), and Posture Change Up (completely useless). Even our Delay effect is only useful if the person is in cover, something only a rifleman can do and never does. We have no knock down, and if we pickup a brawler profession that complements our mind attacks (Swordsman), we get a low 67 melee defense even if we pickup Master Brawler as well. And a Master Pistoleer/Master Fencer/Master Brawler gets more Ranged defense than we get with that build while also capping melee defense and Dodge and still being able to target health with either Pistol or 1 handed weapons. Yet, Swordsman uses Counterattack while Rifleman uses Block, so there is very little help there.


Okay, so I went into a few more things, but the point is that the game is not just about DPS, so you cannot ask to get our DPS without taking into account what we give up to get that DPS, and with the Combat rebalance, we will lose the only other major advantage we had, and that was to be able to attack the only unhealable pool since the revamp will in all likelihood make mind healable like the other pools.


So, you arguments are not really well thought out. Besides your "Would many of you be opposed to taking the rifleman down a few notches," remark is exactly the problem. We want the broken professions, including Pistoleer fixed, while you and others who have come here, want us to be as broken as your profession. That is just plain the wrong approach.



Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



XaverriJade7
Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:16 pm
#55




Onichi wrote:



Latest 19 answers...


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=in_live&message.id=15830#M15830






Rifleman


Why do we have +40 (or so) at 60m with a laser rifle, and then -50 at 64m? Will range modifiers be reviewed in the new balances?


Again, absolutely. These changes are they types of things we want to address in the Combat Balance.






Umm... isn't the question in this thread supposed to be our question? or is that for the next round? *This Wookiee is confused*




To be honest, this isn't much of a surprise. Since I began to draft this 'Question 2' for us, I wondered ifit may have been too late. This range question is an important one too though. At least it was simple and we got an easy, honest, straightforward, and pleasing answer! YAY!


I'll edit this thread to reflect that it's likely what we'll want to know for out '3rd Question' in 2 weeks or so- if this is indeed what we want when the time comes.

Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 06-03-2004 04:32 PM





Kezia Sunshade
RIS Certified - Master Armorsmith - 12 Exp. Pts
Vendor locations:
Outland, Naboo (7013, 3646) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor & Imperial Prototype PSGs
Elexis' Hard Wars Cafe in Paradox, Lok (1330, -305) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor
LLJK_Griz
Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:17 pm
#56




eXcali1979 wrote:



LLJK_Griz wrote:




They've said they can't increase ranges because of limitations of the game engine and bandwidth. If combat is possible at longer ranges, then the server has to send data about everything in that range and it'd become unplayable for dialup users.


how about they reward their broadband clients! I mean we don't cause nearly as much server side lag as dialup.



As of August/September 2003, over 60% of Americans and nearly 90% of worldwide users are on dialup. This is why every game is designed to be playable on 56k. Also, increasing range would cause an exponential increase in the amount of data being sent to clients (64m requires information on pi*64^2 = ~12860 m^2, 96m would require ~29938 m^2, 128m ~51445 m^2) and seeing how the servers are already quite laggy in heavily populated areas, I doubt if their hardware would be able to handle this.



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HUGE UGLY SIG
JayBurns
Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:30 am
#57

Currently a rifleman at master gets more speed bonus than a master pistoleer,and a master marksmen/riflemen/+2 riflespeed tape can hit the speed cap with anything. This is absurd because a pistoleercan't even hit the speed cap on most pistols at master, they would have to pick up a few tabs from bounty hunter to equal the speed of riflemen (that's an extra77 skill points, just to master scout). And to add insult to injury, pistols don't have near the damage or AP of riflemen. What if they pinched a little riflespeed from the tree, just enough to make a master pistoleer and master riflemen do the same DPS. Would many of you be opposed to taking the riflemen down a few notches?


I'm just interested, because it seems this thread is mostly about improving riflemen, which frankly I don't think it needs.


Welcoming your constructive input,


JBurns


beamstalk
Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:43 am
#58




JayBurns wrote:

I'm just interested, because it seems this thread is mostly about improving riflemen, which frankly I don't think it needs.







Well we are riflemen and god forbid us to actually try to improve our class, maybe you can try and get pistols improved instead of trying to nerf others. We (as in riflemen) feel we need some clarification on what we have been told, that is what this question is about. We don't want to see our profession get destroyed because the preception of what people think we should be and what Devs think we should be are completely different and these changes cannot effectively be implemented. Like I said though maybe you should ask for more speed in the pistol trees, or work towards duel wielding or any number of different skills that can help pistols. Nerfing only leads to nerfing, remember this truth always.



Kel-jun
Master Rifleman
Dark Blade - PA
Flurry
Thrawn caught his eye; and to Pellaeon's astonishment, the Grand Admiral smiled. "But," he whispered, "it was so artistically done."
JumboFett
Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:48 am
#59
Forgive me for interjecting real world thoughts into our fantasy game. But if you had a choice between useing a rifle or a pistol in a gunfight, which would you use? Persoanlly I'd take the rifle because it has better range, accuracy, stopping power, and equal speed as a pistol (semi-auto vs semi-auto).

The only reason NOT to use a rifle is encomberance. Rifles are heavier, and generally more combersome than a pistol. I suppose the only way to refelct that in game would be to reduce the amount of items that a toon can carry, or to jack the HAM costs way up.

Anyway I digress. I would like to see the range issue fixed. I hate that fact that pisto lfire rains down on me from 64m



We never spoke....I was never here
JayBurns
Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:20 am
#60

I commend you all for keeping your tempers and replying to my posts maturely about your feelings on a slight nerf, although some of you did get above a slow smolder, you did not burst into flames. I would be happy if they fixed pistol specials, kept the new high mind cost on riflemen for headshot3, and implemented the original idea the developers had for ap > ar calculations (found at the bottom of this link, in yellow text).


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=fencer&message.id=12599&highlight=armor+piercing#M12599



Thank you and regards,


JBurns


PostScriptum:


I can't believe jedi cried foul in their 19 questionsabout a feature that isn't supposed to be in the game.
Waste93
Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:21 pm
#61




JayBurns wrote:

I commend you all for keeping your tempers and replying to my posts maturely about your feelings on a slight nerf, although some of you did get above a slow smolder, you did not burst into flames. I would be happy if they fixed pistol specials, kept the new high mind cost on riflemen for headshot3, and implemented the original idea the developers had for ap > ar calculations (found at the bottom of this link, in yellow text).


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=fencer&message.id=12599&highlight=armor+piercing#M12599



Thank you and regards,


JBurns


PostScriptum:


I can't believe jedi cried foul in their 19 questionsabout a feature that isn't supposed to be in the game.




We can hope they do not implement that AP vs AR system. The reason is simple. It is worthless to have AP weapons in most cases. Since it only lowers the armor condition it is only of use in PvP.


Who cares if you lower the armor of a MOB since it isn't going to repair it.


Lets not forget, most people do NOT PvP. They PvE. This system might be good for PvP, but it would be horrible for PvE.





Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
JayBurns
Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:53 pm
#62
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=34762&highlight=armor+piercing#M34762

In this thread, it is supposed that the damage enhancement formula is normal, and not a bug? In the link that I posted previously, it was stated that the developers knew this was a bug. Perhaps they had one of those change of hearts and took a liking to the damage bonus formula, thereby not requiring a fix. This could be an interesting query in the next round of 19 questions, as from my viewpoint it shows a great imbalance in favor of two specific professions. HS and RM are the onlycombat professionsthat have anything more than AP1, and appanrently jedi too, when they get their 56% damage enhancement to "make up" for everything being vulnerable to their lightsabers (that's an odd statement when said plainlyin my humble opinion).


Regards,


JBurns
XaverriJade7
Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:20 pm
#63






JayBurns wrote:


...HS and RM are the onlycombat professionsthat have anything more than AP1...




Carbineers' Laser Carbine is AP2 if I'm not mistaken. Also, Commandos have several AP2 weapons and two or three AP3 ones


Besides, HS and RM are the heavy hitters of melee and ranged combat respectively. Giving everyone else AP2s and AP3s would kill the whole 'circular balance' concept.







Kezia Sunshade
RIS Certified - Master Armorsmith - 12 Exp. Pts
Vendor locations:
Outland, Naboo (7013, 3646) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor & Imperial Prototype PSGs
Elexis' Hard Wars Cafe in Paradox, Lok (1330, -305) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor
JayBurns
Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:03 am
#64

I'm not saying everyone should get AP2/3, I'm saying the damage enhancement tied to those few weapons shouldn'texist at all. All that should be happening is that if AP>AR, there is no penalty and the weapon will inflict damage as normal. If it's too hard to implement the increased damage on armor when AP>AR without adding that extra damage to the target, then simply take it out of the game.

Waste93
Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:39 am
#65




JayBurns wrote:

I'm not saying everyone should get AP2/3, I'm saying the damage enhancement tied to those few weapons shouldn'texist at all. All that should be happening is that if AP>AR, there is no penalty and the weapon will inflict damage as normal. If it's too hard to implement the increased damage on armor when AP>AR without adding that extra damage to the target, then simply take it out of the game.




No. If AP does not add damage but only increases weapon armor decay it's useless for anything but PvP.


What you will have is all weapons doing almost the same damage. AP won't be relevant except for causing armor decay in PvP. So there is no real difference between professions. Just graphics and damage types.


But it would mean having some pistols with AP0 being just as effective as a T21 in PvE. Which makes no sense.


There was a large analyses of what would happen to various weapons if this system was implemented. The post was late last year on this board. You can search for it if you want. But it shows how doing this kind of system is nothing more than a huge nerf to all AP weapons while a major boost to AP0 weapons.




Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
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