Rifleman Archive
Thread: Anyone notice that Master Rifleman never agree with Novices on our Top Issues?
Current Master Rifleman cried the blues hard when they were Novice's. Now there Master's, have reached the curve where there overpowered, and are vocalizing so they don't get nerfed and not be overpowered anymore.
I think thats really unfair as until you reach Master this profession really bites. 1 of every 5 times I leave town I die to Thugs hitting me for 600hp per second. I can't hit them, I can try to run, but there faster. Hell, even if I do kill them there only light-blues giving 19pts xp to Rifle.Sure, if I make it out of town I can take down some pretty large things, but it just doesn't justify the whole.
2.5x melee damage is one of the things that makes Rifleman impossible to level, and it is our number one issue, becuase right now theres so many novice rifleman having a tough time leveling.
Impossible? I'm a novice rifle, 0011 TK. Getting to novice TK was vastly more challenging than getting to novice rifle. Getting to novice rifle was frankly quite easy and painless for me.
Now I'm levelling one or the other as the mood takes me, and I still think rifle is easier overall. Novice TK is a quantum leap in power over UA4 (because of how weak UA4 is), but in the end a melee has to grind it out with the mob, and take the hits and the subsequent wounds, all of which takes time to deal with. Novice rifle? I find mobs that I can kill in 1-3 shots; when they charge I just yank the scattergun and kite. I may have to kill 200 such mobs until I get conceal shot or mindshot 2, but that's nothing new in the mmorpgs. Once I get either of those skills, my possibilities really open up.
Btw, I also got 1111 CH while I was levelling - I don't see any reason why a rifleman can't take advantage of pets on the way up to master.
Bottom line - this is a novice rifleman who doesn't really have any complaints. Thus far the profession seems fine.
-Jeff
P.S. From the little I've seen, carbineer is the ranged profession that needs serious help. The ham costs are outrageous over in their neck of the woods.
Rifle is hard to master. True. Advancement can seem painfully slow compared to other classed who whiz through theirs, but something I've been struggling with lately is boredom. When I run out of skill points (AGAIN) and have to decide what to drop so I can master the next profession, Rifleman will not be it. In other games (I'll use EQ for example) there are much loftier goals to strive for. Want to hit max level? Heh, prepare for a lot of work. AA points? Sure, go ahead. Quests, items, etc etc. In SWG it's possible to master a couple of elite professions and spend the rest of your points incredibly fast. In the mean time, you've earned enough money to buy the best items in the game and have tons to spare. What then? There's not much to do in SWG yet. Travel all the planets? Theme parks? Badges? Easily doable in no time flat.
That's why I like Rifleman. It's actually challenging! The longer it can hold my interest, the better, since there isn't that much left to do it seems. I've heard too many people ask "What now?" and "What's the point of continuing?". Jedi doesn't seem like the answer to me. =P I say keep the 2.5x penalty, and force us to fight like riflemen, not like every other cookie-cutter class out there.
"2.5x is old news, and quite frankly if you think that it sucks that bad, move on, there are other things to worry about..."
Good point Darkinigma, but I think they are related. If the 2.5x dmg gets removed altogether like so many people wish....thenthe Devswill have to gimp us in another worse manner...like the 3 sec spd cap! Which i think everyone I've seen agrees is a very bad thing.
I don't agree that Masters and Novices don't see alike... at the risk of sounding superioristic though, it would be safe to say that Masters have a better general idea of the class as a whole and the experience of playing the class AFTER you're done advancing.
The last part is the key. Assuming that you're planning on sticking to Riflemen it's not IF but WHEN you reach master. I would much rather have a slow ride to the top and have the top be worth it, then have a fast ride there, but nothing to have when we get there. Novice is temporary... you're stuck at master forever.
It is also important to know that class as a whole (which is why some masters disagree with a lot of stuff) before trying to change parts of the class. I remember a thread asking to make Flurry2 more powerful of an AoE. That's just redundant because Strafe2 takes care of that. AoEs are extremely powerful hance why Flurry2 (which you get early on) is pretty weak. I also remember the vote thread where lots of people (a minority still, I think) were voting that Strafe2 become anon-AoE... 99% of the people were novices who never used it and were, effectively, calling to nerf our own class because Strafe2 is one of our best shots.
Now as for the issues, there is a lot of confusion in the Novice/Master rivalry claims...
1. 2.5 melee penalty
The 2.5 melee penalty is a double edged sword. Yes it sucks, and yes, masters hate it too. But... it's what's keeping us from getting a super nerf bat. It also forms the basis of good arguments on why we should get more fire power to compensate for it.
Yes it sucked while levelling, but all masters were novices at some time and we had to deal with it too. Its also silly to think that the melee penalty still doesn't affect us. While we don't kill for XP, we do kill for fun, sport, hunting (resource harvesting), exploration, themeparks, PvP, and a whole host of other reasons. I hunt just as much at master as I did at novice so, trust me, we have to deal with that horrid penalty all the time.
2. speed
Everyone seems to believe that you get magical super powers for rifle speed when you become a master. Again, that's just a PERCEPTION of masters and not true. The final speed boosts are abilities 4 and master rifleman. It just happens that for most people those are the last 2 boxes we fill out so we get 2 speed bonuses at the same time. In reality there are actually a good number of non-masters that are at x/x/x/4 so their master speed bonus is not going to be as significant (although every little bit helps).
3. damage and the T21
Most masters and novices agree that the T21 was nerfed to a piece of garbage and that our damage in no way justified the high ham costs, range penalties, and melee bonus. The main disagreement is where to put balancing damage increases into.
Personally, I prefer not to look at the individual skills for multiplier increases (although head3 is another story) and would prefer that the T21 was unnerfed as the old one was a decent deal for HAM justification.
4. too much power too soon
Lots of novice requests are asking for more power, but the problem is that many of these cases will provide too much power too soon. The better you get, the more powerful it becomes, and the more likely a nerf bat will come by again and hit us. You need to consider what affect these changes will have at the top because, especially with Riflemen, other classes compare their power to the masters when asking that we be nerfed.
A side effect is that it prevents dabblers and, in most cases, dabblers will bring the nerf bat. Look at BH. They get eyeshot very early on which makes then way too powerful early in the careers. Most BH have no intention of going master and just did it for eyeshot (I know a bunch that are only doing BH for the LLC line). This is a sure sign that something is too powerful when the masses are going for just one skill. As a result SOE is now entertaining ideas of moving eyeshot up to master status.
The Rifleman class is perfectly designed to scare away dabblers, other classes should work like ours.
5. other classes level faster
Yes they do and no master will disagree with this. But, again, the fact that we have quite a few masters now proves that levelling is not impossible, it's just hard. If you really want to lay on the grind stone, getting master doesn't even take too much time. I was at 4/0/0/2 when I decided to rush to master... it took 4-5 days of grinding to fill in the rest of the boxes.
6. Masters don't want to help
This is not true. If we disagree with something it doesn't mean we don't want to help... it means we smell a change that will bring on the nerf bat. The reaons why there aren't too many new posts is because all that could be said has already been said.
Just go through the forum archives...
1. We talked about using supression fire to level
-- after that was nerfed --
2. We talked about using warning shot & threaten shot...
3. What about conceal shot...
4. Kitable monsters...
5. Monsters that die pretty fast...
6. Tanking with pets...
7. Feign death (from Smuggler)...
8. Bleed & run...
There really isn't anything left that I can think of to talk about... it all seems to already been said - no need to write the same thing down over and over again.
If you have a question write it down and ask - someone mostly likely will post an answer on there.
The real big disagreement for Riflemen are the Sniper v Support v Ranged Combat arguements going on, but there are masters and novices on all of these sides so I won't get started on this one...
-- A6
I agree with all the masters in this thread.
I was a novice once with a 7.7 Laser Rifle to use to level up.
But you know what? I took everything I got and just killed as many MOB's as possible. Warping or no warping, 2.5 x damage I stood out in the hard planets killing anything. I agree it is extremely slow leveling up in novice, the reason is because your weapon does not shoot nearly as fast as the other weapons in the game. But at Master our weapon is finally capped, we finally can shoot and deal enough damage, sometimes even outdamaging a Pistooler or Carbineer.
I worked my ass off to get 4 million exp, and if they are gonna remove the 2.5x damage and nerf masters, they better be prepared to lose a number of players. Novices need to learn that to get to master in this class, you actually have to work your way up. This is by far the most challenging class in the game. But once master you willbe happy to know that you can actually do something.
I consider the Rifleman class the most challenging class in the game and the most underpowered. But 2.5 x damage is not an issue, I didnt even know there was a 2.5 multiplier until after the first month of the game and by that time i was already a master. There are other more serious issues out there
Example:
1. Headshot 3, useless as hell, cant even use it unless you wanna die really fast.
2. Riflemen wearing armor and high HAM cost. Ever try wearing a full set of composite sliced for HAM and using a rifle and doing all your specials? You get 2 shots and your mind is all white.
3. Flushing Shot, Conceal Shot, Surprise Shot, Flurry Shot, most useless abiltity in a game. Conceal Shot doesnt work in PvP and it doesnt work in PvE. Flushing and Flurry too easy to resist and Flurry shot dizzy??? Suppresion shot doesnt work so who do we change the position of an enemy to knock them down??! Suprise shot totally worthless, no damage and no special effect and you have to be in a cover position!!
4. The infamous weapon, the T21, I remember wanting this, only to see it nerf down to nothing. An FWG5 pistol deals more damage than a T21.Mind you its a pistol out damaging a rifle. We also get the worst aiming in the world at less than 60 meters. I got in a battle at 65 meters and I miss Strafe 2, 5 times!!! and he shot me once with a rocket launcher an instant Incap. Now what does that say to you chumps out there? Pistoleer Stopping shot me for 900 from 65 meters!! How can all these classes be able to snipe us out at that range?
I am not gonna give you anymore example why we Riflemen suck, but it was challenging getting 4 mill exp.
Jayjon Firestorm
the 2.5x damage penalty isn't the problem. It's not whats broken. COMBAT is broken, the 2.5x penalty is just a bandaid. Hopefully, just like all bandaids it's temporary. Once combat is balanced then maybe the 2.5x will be dropped.
I mean, and this isn't whinning this is observation, if the 2.5x is meant to be an integral part of combat then don't you think carbineers would have 1.5 and pistoleers would have .5???
For that matter shouldn't melee classes have 2.5x at long range and 1.5 at medium??
This is what I mean as a bandaid. I can't really speak of melee since I just started using it but, it seems to me the only way to balance combat right now without totally reworking it is to use accuracy as the modifier, not damage.
We have been going around in circles for weeks with this topic. Out of all of this discussion we have come up with one viable solution, and that is modifying damage modifiers based on position.
If we are going to continue to debate and discuss this 2.5 modifier, lets do a thread, sticky it, and debate solutions to offset it and balance combat, not just "get rid of it" , "they will nerf something else". If we can give solutions, we can expect the Dev's to listen.
Hooray for ArianSix...
I think he summed up everything in this thread with one sentence: "Novice is temporary... you're stuck at master forever."
This is why Masters should have more say than novice. NOTE: I am not yet Master. I personally have enjoyed the tough ride so far (4/2/4/3). I like having to think about where I start my attack, what macros will help me survive, what rifle is best for a given situation, etc. Rifleman is tough, but darn it's fun. I don't like the 2.5 melee either, but if fixing it causes a 3 second cap, then I say we should up the melee penalty to 4.0!
For game's sake, think about the future! And I repeat what ArianSix said one more time: " Novice is temporary... you're stuck at master forever."
travenwatts wrote:
joydiv66 wrote:
So we should serve the minority instead of the majority?
This does not make sense. The "majority" of novice rifleman are most likely working towards the "minority" master rifleman position. So therefore, shouldn't the master rifleman then become the "majority"?
I'm not. I don't want to give up Master Ranger and there are not enough skill points left. Actually that is not entirely true, I have enough, just not enough to keep my sword to deal with the warping critters. Also keep in mind I harvest for a living and sometimes a spawn pops in at the worst possible place and time. I'll join you when the trips to the cloning center is no longer the result of missing.
I'm hoping I can get a pet good enough to let me drop the sword someday, but alas, this too may get nerfed (some CH want to be the only prof to use a pet in battle). So I'm a little bit wary of a rifle being my only combat tool.
DarmutEngshire wrote:
You know, if this was a fantasy MMORPG, the riflemen would be renamed to wizards. Would you then complain that being a low level wizard is too tough? I'm guessing you would. Have they made wizard classes in any game easier at lower levels? **edit** no. That's the way it should stay.
3 cheers for the wizards of SWG!
Thinking inside the box again? I would like to think SW:G is unique, no? Even given your thesis is a mid level as inefective as a low level?
I want to play SW:G, not EQ with droids. Sorry, I forgotthey nerfed those too...
Man I ca't believe this thread is still going...
Professions should be balanced at the master level, not the novice.
I hate 2.5x damage, but guess what, thats part of being my profession, hence why I intend to do TK for melee defense as well.
Right now they are talking about speed capping at 3 seconds....3 SECONDS!!! This scares me immensely. 2.5x might as well be 80x if thats the fastest I can shoot.
Right now they are talking about having to go prone to fire?!?! Can you honestly tell me that the M-16 is not a rifle and that you can't shoot it standing???
So know I have to go prone, and I shoot once every 3 seconds, and there is a 2.5x modifier............
2.5x is old news, and quite frankly if you think that it sucks that bad, move on, there are other things to worry about right now and instead of debating an already submitted report lets try to organise and get it together for the next battle......
This entire arguement from what I see is being based on one seriously flawed premise.
No 2.5 = instant 100% chance of getting the speed cap.
For starters the devs have already said both of these are being looked into right now in upcoming patches, but linking them is quite a leap of logic since I've never seen anything saying, "Oh here's that but let's give them this instead cause we really do hate riflemen like mad right?"
Guys look atwhat has happened to the profession so far, and ask yourself, "Gee has this pointless and idiotic 2.5 that lets common thugs outside town slam me protected my profession from the wrath of the nerf bat before?"
* T21 nerfs
* Run and gun nerfs
* Changes to tusken and spraysticks still not fixed
* dizzy and suppression next to useless now
And that's just the ones that come to mind in one minute of thinking.
No offense but clinging to the 2.5 in the vain hope it's going to be some magic security blanket against the wrath of the great dev boogymen can be summed up in one word, and that's dellusional.
I didn't take this profession up to be a track and field star praying my bleeds work, or to hide behind a pet just to kill blue con mobs, or to not be able to hit the broad side of a star destroyer below 40 while the pistol user beside me is doing a double backflip and hitting at 60
I took it to be a bloody long range fighter, understanding the fact that in close I was going to have a hard time, but the 2.5 is overkill of the highest order when as has been said, we'rea long range class trapped in a short range world. When you put it with our terrible point blank acc and run and gun it makes me think the devs left a skill out at novice rifleman and that's /grabankles and wait to clone.