Rifleman Archive

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Uthyr wrote:

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whitethunder wrote:

one quick question about this SAC pup as well: How low accuracry reduction is acceptable ?? My ALR went from 20 to 4 when the SAC went from 82 to 58. Is this acceptable or do you supplement this reduction with some type of food ??

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I've actually been wondering the same thing. The Accuracy Bonus stat on the rifle is not the same as the player accuracy mod, and I am unclear about how exactly it works. I'd be willing to bet that it's been described pretty thoroughly on the Weaponsmith forum.

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Bermag wrote:

Accuracy on weapon is just added together with other accuracy (from skills or food). If your accuray is much higher than target defense you will do damage closer to the max damage on your weapon, if opposite you will do damage close to min damage. There is a great thread in game guide forum which also have damage caclulator which take accuracy and defense into calculations.

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I just did some additional field trials on this topic, and am now quite convinced as to how this all works. I've added a different twist to my comparisons here, to answer the question of how various combinations of PUPs and special attack strategies compare.

I used a sliced Heavy Lightning Rifle with the following stats (as listed with no PUP attached):

Damage: 476-1144 +39 elemental (electricity)
Attack Speed: 2.36
My Modified Speed: 1.42
Accuracy Bonus: 83
SAC: 83

My targets were Dune Banthas, because I could easily kill a lot of them of the same combat level (all were CL 82), one at a time. I cleared 3 lairs, one for each of three weapon setups/strategies. This included a total of 29 banthas, and a total of 355 shots fired (so 355 data measurements taken). I have been doing a lot of research on other forums lately that seems to be suggesting that the Accuracy Bonus stat on weapons, as well as the accuracy penalties on PUPs, are currently broken. Furthermore, in my previous trials I noted that the occasional critical strike or miss can throw off the averages, and the only way to average these out to get an accurate number is with very large sample sizes. I therefore decided to only use the results for those banthas for whom I had no critical strikes and no misses. The total number of measurements actually used will therefore be less than 355, but the results are much more consistent and comparable between banthas using these exclusions. I am therefore assuming that any differences in the accuracy stats between different PUPs will not have affected the results noticeably. In case this turns out not to be true, I'll discuss below what the results would have shown if I had included the misses and criticals. As with the earlier trials, I'm using the term "aDPS" to represent the actual damage over time that I measured over the full course of each trial, converted to units of damage per second.

Here are the three comparisons:

Trial #1: Alternating Ranged/Placed Shots with a +33.42% damage / +12.72% speed PUP ("Damage PUP")

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Phaylen wrote:

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At that point, I'd switch over to a SAC-PUP'd rifle and you can continue spamming the same specials.

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I see you used my strategy I posted earlier in this thread. Works great huh? By the way, you sir are the man for the detailed tests. These are very helpful.

I've been running tests with kinetic vs energy guns recently against a target with a psg. I should put you to work on that since you're so good.

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Yeah,I was trying to remember who put the idea into my head to try that strategy. I remember now that it was you. I actually haven't played around too much with that strategy (I've been trying to focus on just a single variable at a time in these trials), but it makes perfect intuitive sense that it would work very efficiently, based on what I am seeing for test results. You can bet that from now on, I am going to have two ADK'd rifles in my toolbar--one with a SAC PUP on it, and the other with a speed PUP. I intend to alternate these often to maximize my damage output.

As for kinetic vs. energy guns, that is indeed something that I would like to test soon, and I'd be very interested in hearing your results. I've been reading people saying that they are getting much better results using relatively weak kinetic rifles compared with more powerful energy rifles, but my high-end energy rifles are so much more massively powerful (on paper, anyway) than my nicely-sliced LD-1 that I am very curious how much of an actualdifference I will see in the field, particularly since I almost always fight PvE and don't often fight targets wearing PSGs.

Anyway, thanks for the comments, Phaylen.

Nice work!

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Uthyr wrote:

Trandoshan Hunter's Rifle, Mark 1-B

Damage Type: Energy

Damage: 487-1151

Attack Speed: 1.67

My Modified Speed: 1.00

Accuracy Bonus: -11 (due to penalty for using speed PUP)

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That was where you went wrong on this whole test..... Think about what else you said....

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Uthyr wrote:

When I was using the low-SAC specials, my action always stayed pretty close to 100%

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The sac capped weapon was a waste when hitting ranged/placed as you had more action then you could burn through.... What you need to find is a weapon with a higher DPS, and not worry too much about SAC, then test the low-SAC specials with a speed pup again. Ask a WS to make you a weapon with a DPS close to 400, and a SAC somewhere close to 120 ish, I have a weapon like this and when I have a speed pup on the base DPS alone hits 660!! Trust me on this, find the correct weapon and the low-SAC specials start to look MUCH more interesting!

Here is my issue - most fights last longer than a min.

so i tried testing to allow for re-genning action to be able to shoot some more (in the aDPS - actual Damage Per Sec) .

this test was against a series of 20k Health wall modules from aNPC base. i shot untill the health had gone, then waited till the action had completely regened.

my weapon was a trandosion hunters rifle - unpupped :

2.51 speed

530-1183 damage

85 sac

i tested each pup - SAC, Damage & Speed with both placed/ranged combo and Head/startle i was also doc adrenal buffed for each:

Damage PUP + head/startle: 26 sec + 23 sec = 408 aDPS

Damage PUP + range/placed: 32 sec +5 sec =540 aDPS

SAC PUP + head/startle:25 sec+ 19 sec = 454 aDPS

SAC PUP + range/placed:34 sec +3 sec = 540 aDPS

Speed PUP + head/startle: 23 sec + 31 sec = 370 aDPS

Speed PUP + range/placed: 26 sec + 4 sec = 666 aDPS

Key:

RED = time to do 20k damage

GREEN = time to regen back to full action after

YELLOW= actual Damage Per Second

what this shows, in contrast to the last series of tests is that for any decent duration of time using ranged/placed is a preferable option - as soon as you're out of action you can't shoot its very simple, so best idea is to push yourself and guage the length of the fight and act accordingly. most new AI on the bosses if you're in a small group will severely prolong the fight so you'd need to be conserving action while doing optimum damage. fair enough you may be doing some decent damage using action pups and head shot, but action is still used heavily and you're not firing as fast or hard as possible either.

i see so many people fighting with no action its amazing, then they all claim to be using action pups and head shot. no one really thinks that with no action you're actually waiting for your own action to re-gen toshoot again - hence taking into account the above tests.

best way if you don't beleive me is to take advantage of the 2 range arms and shoot at 2 turrets and measure the time it takes to destory each. first time using headshot and critical, or startle, or leg with an action pup and then second turret using a speed pup, and only ranged and placed. my bet is you'll be taking that turret out quicker with ranged/placed every time.

the other way i see i out damage over time or in short bursts is in PVE - i only ever use ranged placed and still i pull agro, before heals and alongside pre cu jedi, other riflemen, commandos, you name it.

Message Edited by Iasha on 10-27-2005 10:08 AM

I heard that the SAC cost is the same for placed shot and headshot. Is there any truth to this? I know that I can alternate ranged and headshot and actually gain action if I use my 82 sac rifle with some food. I would think this combo would do more dps than the placed/ranged combo. Have you tested that combo before, because that is what I use when fighting krayt and high end creatures.

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Geddeo wrote:

I heard that the SAC cost is the same for placed shot and headshot. Is there any truth to this? I know that I can alternate ranged and headshot and actually gain action if I use my 82 sac rifle with some food. I would think this combo would do more dps than the placed/ranged combo. Have you tested that combo before, because that is what I use when fighting krayt and high end creatures.

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Sac on a weapon is seen as a %, headshot takes 18% (multipied by the weapon sac), placed is 10% and ranged is 2%.

Wow, I thought this old thread of mine was long dead!

Anyway, in the months since I did these tests, I have settled down into a default strategy that seems to work very well for me, that basically goes along with the test results I reported. For the vast majority of my battles, I use a very fast damage-capped ALR (I so wish that I could find a badder-looking gun that is as powerful as my ALR), with a SAC PUP attached. I eat blob candy to boost my action regen, and there are very few mobs (or even groups of mobs) that I can't kill without completely draining my action (or even coming close). if I ever do run low on action (which usually only happens when I have to do a lot of healing), I just switch to a secondary rifle that has a speed PUP, and switch to Ranged/Placed Shots--or sometimes just keep using the original ALR with Ranged/Placed Shots, if I need my action to regen faster.

Aside from my test results, one of the main reasons why I prefer alternating high-end specials is the psychological factor--I love seeing high damage numbers for every shot I fire, and I suspect that there is an intimidation factor in PVP when people see a huge damage number from a successful critical shot. Ranged/Placed shots, with the right rifle and speed PUP, might do nearly as much damage as the higher-SAC specials, but it is very unimpressive to see the tiny damage numbers on the combat spam. Landing a successful critical strike with a high-damage special (like Adv. Critical Shot)on a KD'd mob is also a lot more devastating than hitting a KD'd mob with a Ranged Shot.