Rifleman Archive

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whitethunder wrote:

just to chime in briefly...

I have a DMG capped ALR with and 82SAC. Ive used a 33% DMG pup up until about 2 days ago. I tried a SAC pup (which brings me down to 58 SAC) and It seems better suited for higher HAM opponents (and Jedi) than the DMG for one simple reason: I NEVER run out of action. I mean sure when I use the dmg pup I am ripping through enemies with incredible damage alternating with imp. headshot/adv. critical, , but my action is gona after so many shots. Since battles with elite BH marks (35K HAM) and Jedi usually last quite a while, I was constantly running low on action, even with doctor buff and food. This puts you in a horrible position if you are even KD.

In short, 7-12K HAM: use dmg pup, anything more use SAC pup and NEVER have to worry about spamming imp headshot with adv critical.

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I am in complete agreement with you about the SAC PUPs, Whitethunder. I think they are much more useful than either speed or damage PUPs against high-HAM targets, even if you have a SAC-capped rifle. For low-HAM targets, I still think speed PUPs have an advantage over damage PUPs (based strictly on my fieldtesting--this may not hold true in all situations), but I still use SAC PUPs in almost all situations, personally, just because I don't like having to swap them, and because I like to be prepared for any surprises. Many is the time that I started attacking what I thought would be a quick kill, and then I end up having to shoot other targets immediately afterwards (because a creature turned out to be social, or an NPC's buddies ended up swarming me, or because a cone attack inadvertently hit something that I didn't intend (causing aggro), or because something else spawns in the vicinity), etc., and I just find the SAC PUP to be the best all-around PUP. For low-HAM targets, I also don't really care if I am putting out the maximum possible damage per shot, because I'm going to kill the mob no matter what even if it takes an extra couple of shots. I'm more interested in keeping my action high.

Your tests show what I have felt. Have compared to using ranged/placed shot and come to the conclusion that for me it is more efficient with the heavy hitting specials.

I am using a sac pup on a sac 82 rifle and never run out of action when using crit/hs

But one thing about your tests. You did not get any misses and also got 4 criticals when using the sac pup. this increase the average damage. if you use the same average damage as in your hs/cs test with speed pup you will get a higher total damage using rs/ps during a fixed period of time (for example 60 s). With rs/ps you can fire 48 shots in 60 s and with sac pup 25 times in 60 sec

48 x 857= 41136 damage

25 x 1403= 35075 damage

However you should miss more times when firing more shots using rs/ps, but still rs/ps should give a higher total damage.

Excellent points, Bermag. I understood you correctly, it looks like you are comparing Ranged/Placed Shots with an action PUP, against Critical/Head Shots with a SAC PUP. I think you were trying to point out that my average damage per shot was higher in myspeed PUP trial than in my SAC PUP trial (using ACS/IHS specials in both trials)--which I see is definitely the case and not something that I had even paid any attention to at the time. So which of the two numbers is more accurate? I don't know--I would have had to run a lot more trials to get a good average. Let's say for the sake of the argument that the correct number is the average of the two trials, which comes out to 1555 per shot. So that makes it 25 shots x 1555 per shot = 38775 damage over 60 seconds for ACS/IHS with a SAC PUP. So Ranged/Placed with an action PU still appears to have a bit of an edge in your calculation, at least on paper.

Another advantage of using a SAC PUP though is that you can throw in other specials than just ranged and placed shots (along with the occasional heals, which also drain some action)without worrying about running out of action. You can use the occasional KD, or cone AOE shot, for example, along with the occasional heals that also hit your action, and it's not going to drop your action appreciably... or you can start kiting a big group of mobs and use a cone AOE the whole time (I've donethis a lot on the hunting trail on Kashyyyk--great fun!). Hehe, it sounds like I am trying to talk myself into using the higher-SAC specials, and perhaps I am.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion and the good eye for details in the calculations, Bermag. I'm all done testing this stuff for the time being (I've done enough number-crunching for one week and think I want to get back to just playing the game), but I would welcome seeing anybody else's results to help get this figured out once and for all. I think I'm still going to keep using ACS and IHS for now though--if nothing else, it makes me feel more powerful seeingthe higher damage numbers in my combat spam after each shot.

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whitethunder wrote:

one quick question about this SAC pup as well: How low accuracry reduction is acceptable ?? My ALR went from 20 to 4 when the SAC went from 82 to 58. Is this acceptable or do you supplement this reduction with some type of food ??

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I've actually been wondering the same thing. The Accuracy Bonus stat on the rifle is not the same as the player accuracy mod, and I am unclear about how exactly it works. I'd be willing to bet that it's been described pretty thoroughly on the Weaponsmith forum.

I'm interested in this discussion as I'm a bh. More damage over time is very important to me (Fights vs full templates can last over 30 minutes from time to time) I asked another hunter their opinion of this subject as got this response:

with a doc buff and a .99 modified speed rifle (speed sliced, speed pu'ped), i alternate between placed shot and ranged shot. it fires off once a second. sometimes there's a 1.x second delay between shots, so combat log shows "2 secs" between shots, but it still is pretty fast.

Thanks Maura for the feedback by the way. What kind of speed between shots are you guys seeing with ACS and IHS? Would alternating between the two basic shots actually do more damage over time as you can shoot faster?

Also, I've used my own strategy to maximize damage. I have 2 capped rifles, one with a full speed slice and speed pup (.86 I'm capped +50 bonus speed from seas, though they might not even be affecting modded speed from what I'm reading on the jedi forums lol), and one with a fullspeedslice and sac pup. What I do is alternate between the guns during the fight. I switch to the speed gun, kd, then ACS IHS over and over till I'm down to about 20% action, then switch back to the sac pup to continue damage, but allow me to regen action. This burst damage strategy seems to work well for me when hunting Jedi as it completly throws their healing pattern off.

Also, in your original post, how did you get the averages for speed between shots? My detailed combat log only ever shows it in seconds.

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Phaylen wrote:

I'm interested in this discussion as I'm a bh. More damage over time is very important to me (Fights vs full templates can last over 30 minutes from time to time) I asked another hunter their opinion of this subject as got this response:

with a doc buff and a .99 modified speed rifle (speed sliced, speed pu'ped), i alternate between placed shot and ranged shot. it fires off once a second. sometimes there's a 1.x second delay between shots, so combat log shows "2 secs" between shots, but it still is pretty fast.

Thanks Maura for the feedback by the way. What kind of speed between shots are you guys seeing with ACS and IHS? Would alternating between the two basic shots actually do more damage over time as you can shoot faster?

Also, I've used my own strategy to maximize damage. I have 2 capped rifles, one with a full speed slice and speed pup (.86 I'm capped +50 bonus speed from seas, though they might not even be affecting modded speed from what I'm reading on the jedi forums lol), and one with a fullspeedslice and sac pup. What I do is alternate between the guns during the fight. I switch to the speed gun, kd, then ACS IHS over and over till I'm down to about 20% action, then switch back to the sac pup to continue damage, but allow me to regen action. This burst damage strategy seems to work well for me when hunting Jedi as it completly throws their healing pattern off.

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I've never actually measured the time delay between shots--that would seem to be almost impossible to measure accurately. The combat log only shows the time between when each shot is fired, not between when one shot ends and the next begins. All that I really concern myself with measuring is the total damage dealt over a long span of time, and dividing the first by the second estimates my actual DPS. In my field trials, I found that I was getting more damage over time alternating ACS/IHS than alternating RS/PS, but it's clear to me now that I really need to check this over a much longer duration fight (or by repeating the trials many more times) to get a good average. The occasional miss or critical strike can really throw off the calculations over the short term.

I really like your idea to alternate equippingrifles with different PUPs on them--I may try that! That would be a whole lot easier than removing a PUP and equipping another one on the same rifle in the middle of a fight. I guess that would require an additional ADK though!

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Phaylen wrote:
Also, in your original post, how did you get the averages for speed between shots? My detailed combat log only ever shows it in seconds.

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As an example using my data above, if I fired 65 shots, and it took 80 seconds to fire those shots, then 80/65 = 1.23 seconds to fully complete one shot. That's for the combination of whatever two specials I am alternating (so it could be more like 1.8 seconds for a placed shot and 1.4 seconds for a ranged shot, but because the timers overlap, the average is less than the sum of each of them).

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OhBuggah wrote:

This is an interesting test, but it only applies to PvE. Most people who do use the ranged/placed shot alternating combo are the ones doing PvP ... Jedi hunting. In PvE I use damage powerups and only high damage specials because I am in no danger of dying, the mob has ZERO defenses so chances of missing are remote, and it doesn't matter if combat cycles are longer. I don't heal in PvE so it doesn't matter if it takes longer to get to the next round. Whereas in PvP, Jedi hunting, I am in real danger of dying and the duration of combat cycles do matter. This is where ranged shot/placed shot comes in more useful as the other player is actively trying to kill you. Also in PvP your target has high defenses, which means you will miss quite often. Missing a low damage shot isn't as devastating to your DPS as missing a high damage shot.

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Good points, OhBuggah.I was only interested in PvE data when I did these tests, and probably should have specified that in my first post.

well i just carry around 3 rifles each with different pups easiest solution to m e

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QuantumArtist wrote:

Tell you what... Go get your modified speed down to .86 or more, and try it! Its no exageration!

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You didn't answer as to whether or not this is PvE or PvP. As I said, PvP I would not be surprised if you can get in more than one or two shots while your target is down. Players are (mostly) only human.

PvE, yer talking out yer butt. I'd buy two shots, but not 4+. Unless you delay something while it's down, it just won't happen. Your target will have either gotten up, or be in the process of getting up - either way, they're not counted as being knocked down anymore. You may see them on your end as still being down when your shot goes off, but again that isn't the same as them actually being down. The server must still consider them to be down or you won't get the bonus damage/breathing space.

I've had my speed down that low, though not with a rifle. And you're using the same skill I used - Underhand Shot.
I'd be frankly quite shocked if you're getting anything like the number of attacks in you think you're getting in.