Rifleman Archive

BaronJedi, your yet another person that responed only to my post without reading not only the post in the link but none of the rest of this thread, your the one that looks foolish. I don't feel like reiterating what I said and meant another time, not that you would be able to comprehend anyway.

Okay, now that I've received a good night's sleep and am in a better state of mental concertment, here would be the rebuttals to the original statistics:

1. There is no proof that the weapon firing is actually the weapon offered in the screenshot. Even less that, say, a Speed Powerup had not already been used.

2. The Laser Rifle is only a moderately good weapon -- I would be far more interested in tests showing a similar firing rate with a T21, which now is -the- end game Rifleman weapon. Which I suspect I won't see, simply because I am a T21 wielding Master Rifleman with a +90 speed bonus and I certainly don't fire Strafe Shot II any faster than 2-3 seconds at the quickest.

3. Even assuming a 1.0 second firing delay, which is selective and highly improbable, this neglects to mention the costs of styling attacks. 150-200 mind cost for a Head Shot III is a very strong disclaimer to even continuous firing, should its existance be accepted. Four shots in four seconds followed by 1-2 minutes sitting downwaiting for that mind to come back is FAR worse than a Pistoleer who can keep up firing at a one second delay for minutes on end.

4. Sheer DPS disparity is of minimal import, considering that Riflemen have a 2.5X Melee Damage modifier, resulting in CONSTANT deaths P v E due to endlessly warping mobs, and exacerbating the Rifleman's extreme P v E weakness to CH Mobs (which often run faster than burst run speed) and all melee classes (we have the distinction of being the ONLY ranged class really at the mercy of melee, with Commandoes).

5. Our run speed is also much reduced, minimizing our mobility and allowing enemies to catch up to us with ease. These are disadvantages that Pistoleers or Bounty Hunters do not experience.

6. AP is largely borked in P v P right now, meaning that the 450 damage Laser Rifle we can fire four times in four seconds (ASSUMING this dubious data is true) with a consequent 1-2 minute downtime is FAR inferior to a FWG5 with 250 max damage or more which can fire once every second . . . for 1-2 minutes, minimum.

7. Even beyond the necessarily inferior Damage over Time due to excessive downtime resulting from rapid HAM depletion, we also lack knockdown moves which are currently avaliable to Carbine and Pistol users. A Knockdown is as good as an instant defeat, whereas a Rifle will never be guaranteed an instant victory.

8. The superiority a Rifleman -allegedly- possesses at Master is much harder to attain than is the case with a Pistoleer, for instance. I personally died anywhere from twice to ten times an hour in P v E due to warping mobs which would summarily kill me before I could unequip my weapon and burst run to an adequete distance, or which would simply one-shot me and spare the few second wait. As a Pistoleer, there is a very simple response to warping mobs -- Pistol Melee Defense 1, or the infamous Pistol Whip. Even if it can theoretically no longer be spammed, it is a get-out-of-trouble free card in these instances. The Rifleman's resort is immediate death. I could gain experience twice as fast when working my way through Pistoleer as I could through Rifleman.

So, in conclusion, if Rifleman have a transitory advantage in DPS over a few seconds, following which they must face downtime that pistol users do not, it is a small advantage compared to the many privations of being a Rifleman, listed above. So, yes, we do have a great deal of room to complain.

As I stated earlier, I'm the rifleman in question. I'm on Tarquinas, usually on Talus, if you want to track me down and/or run tests.The gun that's shown in the first screenshot is the one I used for the testing. If there are any other master rifle/master marksman out there, I'm sure they can confirm what's been stated here. Near as I can tell, I can fire anything with a net delay of 20s or less (after styles, etc) with an adjusted delay of 1s, as the formula would imply. I'm pretty sure the results will be the same with the T21, since the HS3 has a delay of (I believe) 2.5x, which means anything less than an 8s gun would still cap speed (note a master rifle without master marksman would cap only with 4s or less weapons). It costs me around 130 mind to use HS3 with that gun and 1100/600/600 mind stats.

I'm not neglecting the downsides of the rifle - after mastering it, believe me, I know them very, very well. The funny thing is, despite how 'overpowered' I am, a relatively low level pistoleer or a smuggler can beat me, even if they don't use knockdown, due to panic shot, and (I'm told) fan shot, both of which impose stackable delays on the target. But that's a different issue.

I hate riflemen you all suck. Respect.

I recently started a second character on Starsider while waiting for the Devs to fix my screwed up HAM (I got saddled with a minimum of 1000 Action pool, thus giving me only 600 points to distribute between all of my Mind stats. . . oh the pain). I wanted to try out Smuggler, so I bought myself Notive Marksman and Novice Brawler. I burned through Pistol I-IV in a matter of hours. HOURS. I could grab myself some ren con MOBs and just lay down with the Bodyshots until it died. I was hitting way over 75% of the time at 60 meters. By the time the MOB reached me it was halfway dead. I was kiting out MOBs that would kill my Rifleman (using my best Headshot2/3, Mindshot1/2, and Supression Fire combos) at Pistol III. It's obscene. We always whine about how overpowered Pistoleers are, but I never realized just HOW ridiculous they are until I played on Starsider. And I wasn't even a Pistoller. I was still in the MARKSMAN tree. It's so disgusting I feel like a cheater for even using a Pistol. I've decided to ditch most of Pistoleer for Teras Kasi on that character just so I can live with myself.

Believe me, I've got room to complain. I've got acres, baby.

Ok, let me give you guys the exact weapon speed formula so you can stop calling each other names.

WS= Weapon Speed SM= Speed Mod DM= Delay Multiplier

(SM(WS X DM)

Basicly, once you get +100 speed mods, that means you fire every weapon and every special at 1.0 seconds. This has been confirmed through testing on the pistoleer boards. So yes, you can do headshot3s with a 9+ second T21 evert 1.0 seconds. However, at master rifleman(+90) it is 2.0 seconds. This is why rifleman have no room to complain. They can get many many times more DPS increase from speed mods than any other class in the game. Now, I personaly think the whole system is flawed and should be reworked. As it is now, a master pistoleer with +26 more speed mods will fire a FWG5 two times faster, but a master rifleman with +10 speed mods will fire a pre-nerf T21 nine times faster.

On one hand, I can hit the health pool for 2X more damage every second with a FWG5.

On the other hand, I can hit the mind pool for 3X more damage every second with a T21.

I say this, as both a rifleman and pistoleer.

Here is an example using a 7.1 second T21. The 9+ second ones are pre-nerf, and the 6.1 second ones are inbetween the pre-nerf and post-nerf. The 6.1 second ones were only craftable for a few days. This is how the speeds are on bloodfin.

Master rifleman +90 speed mods using 7.1 second T21 and headshot3s at a 2X delay modifier.

(0.10(7.1 X 2) = 1.42 seconds

This means that a headshot3 coming from a T21 used by a master rifleman with no extra speed mods takes 1.42 seconds to fire.

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RhysMarantz wrote:

Here is an example using a 7.1 second T21. The 9+ second ones are pre-nerf, and the 6.1 second ones are inbetween the pre-nerf and post-nerf. The 6.1 second ones were only craftable for a few days. This is how the speeds are on bloodfin.

Master rifleman +90 speed mods using 7.1 second T21 and headshot3s at a 2X delay modifier.

(0.10(7.1 X 2) = 1.42 seconds

This means that a headshot3 coming from a T21 used by a master rifleman with no extra speed mods takes 1.42 seconds to fire.

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I believe HS3 is actually 2.5x multiplier. If you read the rest of the thread, the issue is whether or not someone can fire HS3 at 1s intervals using an arbitrary rifle, without speed mods. A master rifle/marksman has +95 speed, and thus can fire anything with less than 20s adjusted delay at capped speed. This translates to capped speed on HS3 on any gun with a delay of 8s or less.

Rifles:
Head Shot1: Damage x1.5, Time x1.5
Head Shot2: Damage x2.5, Time x1.75
Head Shot3: Damage x3.0, Time x2.0
Mind Shot1: Damage x1.5, Time x1.8
Mind Shot2: Damage x2.0, Time x2.0
Conceal Shot: Damage x2.5, Time x3.0
Flushing Shot1: Damage x2.0, Time x2.1
Flurry Shot1: Damage x2.5, Time x2.0
Strafe Shot1: Damage x2.0, Time x2.0
Startle Shot1: Damage x2.0, Time x2.1

At master rifleman, (without master marksmen) everything will be 2.0 seconds. (styles) Except for maybe a Spraystick,or a DLT20a, with a speed slice of 40, and a 32 percent speed power up. It will showup as 2 seconds, for example, I have a 5.1 spd DLT, (5.1x2.5).1=1.275, but on your combat screen it will show up as 2.0 seconds all the time.

But with master marksmen, everything is 1.0 unless you have a T21, with 9.0 seconds.(9.0x2.5).05=1.125, this should show up as 2.0 seconds.

The reason rifleman complain, is becuase they are not master rifleman/master marksmen, or let alone master rifleman. That is why they complain, I have told them a thousand times it turns around at master, but they havnt understood that yet. We benefit from the spee bonus the most, others will benefit close to us, pistoleers get it the worst though.

Its kind of like a curve grade, were the lower grade benefits more then the higher grade. Were that low D, bieng rised to a high C with the curve . While your the low B, bieng raised to a Higher B.

Sorry, but you are the one looking like an idiot by jumping to conclusions. And making a post you claim was in order to gather proof of the contrary. Which is complete crap as you were just stating your opinion on the subject and then trying to protect it with those little "If this is true" statements. Like someone already stated why didn't you just explain what the guy said and ask for our opinions? If you were really trying to prove the contrary...But no you weren't. Nice try.And EVEN if what you said was true, youSTILL don't have all the facts. Like how insane HAM drain is using a T21. Overpowered? It STILL wouldn't be IMO. Maybe if you had a complete argument taking things like that into account you wouldn't look so clueless.

My original question stands. Why the hell do people start posts without knowing all the facts?

Anyone understand who BaronJedi is talking to and what he is talking about? If this was directed at me, I would be more than delighted to debate the pros and cons of a rifleman. I can also explain how a master rifleman can do more DPS to the mind pool than any class to any specific or random pool.

Rhys...
No, I think he was talking to the originator of this thread. That is a continuation of a "you're a moron"/"no, you're the moron" conversation that was dominating this thread earlier. I'm not sure why he decided to jump back into it again when the originator hasnt even replied lately!!