Rifleman Archive
Thread: Eyeshot Post by a BH
Just as a quick side note, TKAs can also hit all three pools. Well, they have attacks that wound all three pools..
Anyway, regarding this thread, Meyree, you have been exceptionally cool... For a Bounty Hunter 
I appreciate the fact you came in and spoke as constructively and objectively as possible.
I would just like to point out, grinding Rifle XP is much more difficult up the Rifleman tree than the impression you may have gotten going up rifles in the Marksman tree. In turn, we Rifleman can get a little edgy when hearing the "I have to master 2 professions" argument knowing what effort we have to put in to our trade. Couple that with the fact we are naturally protective over what little domain we have (which right now is mind damage), I am sure you can understand why we tend to get somewhat., passionate.
One last little gimmick here, you said:
"Now combination of rifleman skills alone will EVER stand up to a BH. Now, if you spend the same amount of skill points as we do on combat professions alone, then you will be just as strong as us."
If I was Master Marksman, Master Rifleman with Master Pistoleer (or Carbine), put the rest in Medic, I will have spent WAY more true combat points then any BH could ever hope to get.... And I would still get owned by Eyeshot, and LLC, and Underhand Shot, etc... UNLESS I got the drop on you with a StrafeShot2, but thats a whole different matter 
Actually, if I were to suggest a good BH counter other than commando or jedi, it would be one of a couple things:
1) Rifleman/ CH/ Marksman
2) Rifleman/ Carbineer/ Medic
3) Rifleman/ Pistoleer/ Medic
4) Rifleman/ Pistoleer/ Carbineer
In order of those who would take down a BH easiest to those who would have the hardest time.
The CH combo would win the fight, you should note, but only by default. It's fairly guaranteed that a master CH will kill almost anyone they go up against, but that is through pets, thus the CH's survival is not guaranteed.
Riflemen actually DO have a great counter to BH: Mindshot 2
Bleed the mind, and run. The BH has the choice of standing there healing themself, in which case you can come back aroud and start shooting. Afterall, you can't /firstaid yourself while targetting another player, or the Bh could give chase, but would ultimately die, and the rifleman would usually come back up first, from my experience.
Of course, this works against anyone, not just BH.
You're right that doctors can rez, etc... Each class has one unique thing at least.. Riflemen' unique realm is not the mind pool. Complaining that other people can hit that is like a doctor complaining that a combat medic can heal the health pool. It's not exactly that broad, but none the less is not the real class defining ability.
You need to be able to use /conceal in PvP period. I didn't know prior to this thread that you couldn't, and I find it outrageous that any profession has any skill completely barred from use in PvP. When that is done, the class' abilities are unnaturally lowered. Now, that's not to say there shouldn't be limits in PvP that don't exist in PvE, but to remove a skill completely in PvP is not fair at all really.
BHs get MS1, too, and they can use the laser rifle, which is generally considered to be the best rifle in PvP other than pre-nerf T21s.
Also, how do you run away from someone who can run at the same speed you can?
I'm still confused as to how this addresses the problem of Eyeshot not using mind pool.
The CH issue is a different one in that CHs can use their abilities in parallel with their other abilities. A master medic can't heal while shooting, and a master carbineer can't use a pistol at the same time as a carbine. CHs just stack well with every class (including the BH) because their commands don't go through the combat queue.
I'm confused how a Rifleman/Carbineer/Medic, Rifleman/Pistoleer/Medic, Rifleman/Pistoleer/Carbineer have a better chance than a pure Rifleman. Where exactly in the strategy do the other skills come into play that makes those combinations more effective?
I don't see concealshot not working in PvP to necessarily be an issue. Sniper shot is purely a PvP special. And again, mind attacks mean nothing in PvE. It's only in PvP that it becomes important.
Bottom line is: Why is it okay for Eyeshot not to take up mind pool? What's wrong with rearranging its HAM drain so that it takes mostly mind? Everything else is just smoke confusing the issue.
Myree...though I appreciate your discussion in relations to eyeshot/BH vs rifleman...I can't help but notice your continued reluctance to have eyeshot drain from a BH's mind pool as a remedy. Your arguments to the contrary continue to blatently highlight this fact.
Yes, your arguments thatBH's are a conglomeration of all three marksman classes...and thusly should have perks from each class...however with those perks should come the penalties of each. Rifleman special moves hit the mind pool, both our targets and ourselves...therefore to maintain consistency, even in your argument..the BH eyeshot SHOULD also drain from the mind pool since it attacks the mind pool. The mere fact that BH's spam eyeshot, doing mind damage at the expense of their ACTION pool is unbalancing and inconsistent. A BH simply carrys StimB's and heal themselves making Eyeshot the special of choice (As we see from its overuse currently) Switching eyeshot to drain mind, will make the BH think about his own mind pool before spamming it...it doesnt make it useless...but does make it a useful as a Special move in special circumstances. Which is how it should be.
Rifleman don't want other classes nerfed even more..we have our own issues as yet unaddressed...we are not saying nerf eyeshot or remove it from BH's...we are saying it should be consistent across the board and drain from the mind pool as it does mind damage,, making it a special move used in special circumstances ..not the eyeshot spamfest with total disregard since action is healable we currently see in its present form.
Meyree wrote:
Nonetheless, I think if a BH were going toe to toe with a rifleman using eyeshot, with the rifleman using headshot 3, if both have the same mind values, then the rifleman should win hands down.
Has anyone tested to see if this happens? I mean exact same mind, and only using those moves?
Disagree for the following reasons. BH will get off more shots. Pistols are much faster than rifles. Unless you are a Master Rifleman. Both will be hitting their targets Mind pool. However, the rifleman will also be draining Mind using his special. Eye shot uses Action pool which the BH can also buff so there is no real effect on his pool. Therefore the BHshould win. The BH will possible drop later from the bleed but the Rifleman will still be dead and will not get the XP of FP from the battle. Also rifle HAM costs are very high. I don't know what BH's are but the average rifleman can only do a half dozen or so good specials before their mind is dangerously low.
Solution : Any special that targets a specific pool should also drain from the same pool.
Notice that I said "should". It's not that way, but honestly, it needs to be.
Having eyeshot drain the BH mind pool would seriously hurt the BH profession too much.
Thus, another solution should be found, if possible, to right the imbalance without really messing up any class.
It doesn't do much good to fix one thing if it breaks another, which would require another fix which could break another... It's a horrible cycle that simply has to end somewhere, and the most beneficial way for it to end would be at the start, not after three or four bad changes.
Now, I and y'all could be wrong as well. I tend to sympathize with any rifleman who uses HS3 against a BH using eyeshot and loses. It just doesn't add up. I could be wrong though, as BH IS supposed to be THE best profession to combat.
The key here in the rifleman concerns is finding a solution that is mutually beneficial. The most obvious or simple solution is not always the best. The only way for this to be fixed without BH being badly hurt by it or by the nerf swinging around to other professions in a balance chain reaction is for BH and riflemen to work together to find a good solution both agree to, which we could then work together to bring t the devs' attention.
If we cry something is broke, they will add it to the list of things to fix, fix it in a hurry, and it wil lcom eback up for a long time.
If we cry something is broke, and offer a well thought out solution that even those who were overpowered in the situation can agree with (when being reasonable, and not just power greedy), then they are ver likely to say "hmmm... they have a point"
What this boils down to is, out of the ideas on this thread, and maybe some of your own, what OTHER than making eyeshot take from the mind pool would work?
If we do this mental exorcise, cognitively drawing out the ramifications of all the ideas, and come to the conclusion that any other fix would hurt something or someone more, then it must be so. Nonetheless, if it is at all possible to find something better, shouldn't we try?
Once I draw attention to what we come up with in the BH board, and draw them here, most will be a bit taken aback by the idea that the very people screaming for a nerf took the time to think of a way to do it that is not only fair, but doesn't break anything.
Personally, I think it would be awesome if the whole community were able to work like that with changes, instead of only preaching the most obvious or simple solution.
Anyway, I'm not too sure there's much more I can say from the viewpoint of a BH who DOES sympathize with riflemen in this situation, so I guess it's in your hands now.
I want a fair fight when I fight a rifleman. I want it to be fair for both of us. I also don't want my profession hurt very badly, and would even go so far as to say nobody really wants that, when it comes down to it 8)
There's a pretty big difference between shooting a player (presumably an alert player) and running away and avoiding a mob. I can avoid Giant Krayts pretty easily. That doesn't mean I can shoot one and get away. And BHs can burst run, too. Heck, even if BHs couldn't burst run, are you saying we're only good once every ten minutes or so when burst run is up?
The difference between us targetting action and you targetting mind is that you can heal action. In particular, you can heal a lot more action than the mind you spend. You might be using a lot of action, but you can heal it while we hit it. The mind pool we lose is not replenishable.
I still don't buy the 'have to kill harder mobs = need to be able to heal' argument. First off, you can bring a group. Second, there's nothing special about the BH that makes them take more damage. It's the mob that's difficult, and it's difficult for everybody, not just the BH. Your argument basically boils down to, since BH marks are hard, BHs should be better fighters, which seems pretty silly. No other class gets a specific class of enemies to fight, so how can you claim they're 'intended' to fight weaker mobs? Finally, your argument is only applicable if you actually use Eyeshot as a primary attack in PvE.
As far as I know, medics cannot heal while shooting. My understanding was that they can heal while autofiring, but when they heal, they stop firing for the duration of the heal delay because healing is effectively a combat special move. CHs are unique in that they are the only class who can attack completely independently of their own actions (more accurately, pet controllers).
If BHs really target the weapon-specific pools, why do pistoleers and carbineers complain about BHs spamming Eyeshot? I'd guess that BHs use eyeshot anyway since the mind pool can't be healed, and as a ratio, the action/health pools are effectively about 5-10 times the size of the mind pool as you can heal a great deal more health and action compared to the mind you spend. Somehow I doubt there are many people who have 1/10th the action/health as their mind.
We're not concerned about pistoleer and carbineer being able to heal their action pool from their special usage (or rather, it's a separate issue) because they don't hit mind. If carbineers had an EarShot which targetted mind and used action, we'd have the same problem with that, too.
Again, bottom line is, the issue is that Eyeshot can hit an unhealable pool without expending the unhealable pool. I don't see how BH strategy changes greatly because of this if BHs really act as you say they do, and don't just spam Eyeshot at everything. It's not just riflemen that BHs use Eyeshot on. It's pretty much everyone in PvP.
"BHs attack your mind because it is weak. It is weak because your specials penalties are too hefty. It is weak because you cannot heal it. They will keep doing this until that changes. If the devs take away our ability to hit mind, they forsake what our class is, and might as well remove it from the game. If the devs make our mind attack take our mind, it unbalances us for PvE."
The flaw in this argument is that mind is the weak point of everyone in PvP right now, not just riflemen. We could use zero mind pool for our specials and it'd STILL be the best target because you can heal so much action and health compared to the mind cost. The issue is with Eyeshot, not the specials cost of riflemen.
The thing is that tactics will be moot againt a BH as it stands now. I take out a rifle and he starts attacking my mind with eyeshot. Seeing this I take out a carbine and bleed his action since eyeshot takes alot of action (I am a master marksman or I could take your advice and take my carbine skill up to the next lvl) however what happens now? He is still using eyeshot only thanks to my massive mind bar it isn't as effective as if I was a pistoleer. I keep attacking his action but since he has a pistol he is running at me and hitting me often so I have to run away which makes me miss assuming carbines are similiar to rifles. Next I get incapacitated because he's hit me with eyeshot enough times and thanks to him having good action stats or buffs he isn't quite dead yet, lets say he has 2 action left and is still bleeding it. Next he takes a stim B, first aid, first aid, first aid, stim B, I"m dead. How do my tactics help there?
Our beef is that when you use eyeshot we are helping you kill us meanwhile the feeling isn't mutual. The only way to defeat a BH as a rifleman is if you are paired up with a carbineer so that he will kill the BH or I"m not being targeted so odds are 1 of us will incap him.
Saying that eyeshot will be useless if it takes away from mind because it hurts mind is kind of a bad thing to say in this forum thanks to what happens to us for our attacks. You have to realize we don't want to own the market on mind damage there are melee classes that specialize in it to an extent as well however they have to get up close that is their cost, we destroy our own mind that is our cost, you waste a stimpack that is your cost. That last one seems a bit too light in comparison and that is why people don't like it.
Again, what makes the BH profession so special? Everyone else that can damage mind uses mind. Even swordsman primarily drain from mind.
I'm not sure why it's necessary to find some special way to make this work for BHs. Or why it's the responsibility of the riflemen forum to find one. We have a solution which seems fair to everyone around. Please explain why it's not fair or propose another solution which is acceptible to you. Making rifle HS1/2/3 take action/health isn't really acceptible (not to everyone besides riflemen and BHs, certainly, for the same reasons we've discussed). Here's another solution. Why not just remove Eyeshot? BHs can already use rifles and use Headshot1/2 (and most riflemen stick with HS2 anyway, due to HAM costs and DPS being worse with HS3). If you're only using Eyeshot's mind pool targetting ability on mobs or players with very low mind pools, why wouldn't that work just as well? Or heck, let scatterpistols be able to use HS2. That's perfectly fine with me.
What would you suggest to prevent from:
a) the eyeshot being spammed (action drain and stim B issue),
b) the eyeshot having higher DPS then headshot2/headshot3 (lets take away Master Rifleman from the equation here).
Wookiee Master Combat Medic/Rifleman
To debate with Myree on this issue is proving fruitless. By his own "tactical" strategy..he states a BH should be switching weapons to target his opponents weakness. This is not occurring as we all know, and he knows as well. BH's use nothing but eyeshot presently, targeting an unhealable pool... regardless of opponent...be it pistoleer, carnineer, or rifleman..its eyeshot spam all the way. Why? Because mind is unhealable for all classes and if its a rifleman, we just help them kill oursleves quicker.
Myree says : "Having eyeshot drain the BH mind pool would seriously hurt the BH profession too much."
Why? Have BH's become to reliant on this "special"?
By sheer admission of this fact in your own words should prove to you how reliant BH's have become on ONE special attack. Why do you think that is? Perhaps because it is unbalancing and BH's CAN spam it with NO risk to themselves (see above posts/points...ie Action healable)?
Mind damage attack drain from mind pool will stop the eyeshot spamming and make it a "special" attack as needed and as its supposed to be. If BH's are too reliant on one special attack...that in itself should prove that it is a problem.
Whoa, BHs can attack every pool? Yeah, they can, but they don't. That's not how BH works. BH works a little like this.
0-0-2-0 (some even put the carbine knockdown in there)
Eyeshot on everyone. 3-6 hits = death.