Rifleman Archive

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Meyree wrote:

Bounty Hunters, say it with me, attack all three pools. The difference is that a BH should never be as effective against any pool as a master of the profession concentrated on that pool is.

Thus, the reason why I have been comparing eyeshot to headshot 3.

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Good post, SocialConformer, and very well put. That certainly clears a few points of confusion for me...

The idea certainly works from both ends, too. It's easier to change just one ability than to change two abilities.

I'll stay silent on the mind healing issue for the most part... I think it should be able to be healed, but not the same way as health and action, and maybe not even when in battle. The reason is that there must be one depletable resource in battle.

I'd say riflemen definitely have a few unique delimas that the devs seem to have not even noticed.

There are a couple solutions to the problem discussed here, and all are going to have their camps of people both for and against.

1) Riflemen will always have the short end of the stick in PvP due to their profession defining sniping skills being impossible to use in PvP.

Riflemen are snipers. Conceal, etc, SHOULD work in PvP, but with heavier limitations than PvE. For example, you hide/ conceal, and then only get one shot before the conceal breaks. This would allow you to act like a sniper in PvP, by choosing the best target, aiming, and firing. Snipers don't rush combat; they take their time. One shot, one kill, as they say in the Army.

Then, other players have a chance, if they are alert enough, to notice you, locate you, and target you before you conceal again.

Snipers are a major part of warfare, and I think this would add much realism to PvP, as well as solve many problems for riflemen, including the main problem addressed here. Of course, the rifleman's weakness should be similar to a sniper's in real life, which is area of effect weaponry. It should damage them more, and break their conceal when hit by it.

Would this create a scenario with some people tossing AoE weapons everywhere while snipers are sniping and everyone else is doing their thing? Yep. Just like real life combat (more on that in another thread one day perhaps)

2) Change the eyeshot costs to mind.

While this is certainly the most common sense solution, it is also the one that would bring in another imbalance, and be counter productive to the devs' goals of not making all PvP dependant on mind. Rather, moving PvP away from that.

The imbalance would be that there are three pools, and BHs can hit all three. They can also be hit by all three. BHs have the choice of being even across the board, or favoring certain pools. This change would make most BHs favor the mind pool, which would imply a sort of achile's heel.

Now, while BHs must have a natural weakness, like any class, which is guaranteed to take them down, the devs have built weaknesses already in existance upon skills, not HAM. PvP combat basically is an elaborate paper, rock, scizzors, but the devs' goal is to hide that and make that fact about the system perform in a manner which does not comprimise immersion.

We already see PvP battles as a large "Paper, you go kill rock, rock you go kill scizzors", but this change would remove one component for hiding that.

Thin argument, I know, but in listing these, I am showing the benefits of a change where benefits are not already apparent, and drawbacks that are not apparent, even if thin... Bear with me 8)

I will say this, on the surface, makes the most sense. Of course, it's not what would benefit the rifleman class the most, but it would be the easiest to implement with the fewest needs for rebalancing.

Another huge drawback is that BH pretty much must spend remaining skill points on medical skills. Eyeshot is one of our main attacks, and heals take from mind too. This change would cripple BH in PvE while balancing PvP.

It still remains the easiest and most common sense solution, though, because with a little tweaking of other BH skills, this could be easily overcome.

3) Move Mindshot 2 costs to health, and mindshot 3 costs to action

This would benefit both the BH and the rifleman class. It would benefit BH by not introducing yet another change to our class, and would benefit riflemen for obvious reasons... The drawback would be a blow to consitancy within the system.

This may sound odd, but outside of carbineer, pistoleer, and rifleman, the system of mind damaging shots take mind, health damaging shots take health, etc is consistantly broken. Really, that system is only stricly adhered to within those three professions, which may be overcome by the fact that one could master all three, or master two plus medic.

All three solutions would solve the problem, almost with absolute equal ramifications.

Only the devs really know what possible drawbacks may occur or exist in the code, therefore only they could make a truly educated decision. I would like to hope they wouldn't simply take whatever route seems easiest, but rather the route that would benefit, and more, enhance the game.

/shrug My belief is that in a post launch persistent world any change you make to correct balance should be a double edged sword used to enhance content, thus providing for a clear and immediate obvious improvement and building cycle upon the game... Then again, I still have a bit to learn about design 8)

The complaint, on the surface, is that eyeshot doesn't damage mind, if I understand right, but this can be reversed by saying the complaint is that headshot does, or the complaint that rifleman defining PvE abilities can't be used in PvP...

Interesting dellima... I do hope that a solution is reached that not only fixes the problem, but is mutually beneficial in the long run 8)

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Kachada wrote:
I must say I'm starting to look at Bounty hunters in a whole new light...
Their thing is they can attack any of the pools...

Still though, if you move eyeshot to cost from your mindpool then it would make Mind LESS of a factor in PVP. You'd be less prepared to use it on everyone right? You said you attack health on guys who use health, action on guys who use action, so if you move eyeshot to mind, then you're saving it to use against guys who use mind. Namely riflemen and Combat Medics.

Because as it is now, BH's are using eyeshot on riflemen, AND pistoleers, AND carbineers. So if you move the costs over you cut down your "target audience" for the eyeshot to just riflemen.

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Hey...I agree with that!

Incidentally, there were no replies in this thread when I wrote my first post...lol, takes a long time to write and play

Denzien, Bria server


Artisan 3/0/0/4          Scout 4/0/4/2


Brawler 4/0/0/0         Smuggler 1/0/1/0


Marksman 4/4/0/4      Rifleman 4/1/3/3

Oh, I'm sorry I forgot to address one thing...

The idea that if you moved eyeshot to mindpool it would make mind less of a burdon on PvP is actually incorrect, but only for one reason...

In game design, especially persistent world design, you absolutely can not base components of your system on behavioral assumptions. The only time behavioral dependancies are not an assumption are when they are tested at the same scale which they will be used.

In other words, all BHs devoted to PvP would simply beef up their mind, and keep doing things the same way. The only difference is that they would be more open to attacks against action and health.

On the surface, this is a good thing, and more balanced, but when you add in the fact that most BHs are also medics, you end up with no real difference.

Now, if you made eyeshot drain mind, AND made sure it carried the same costs as headshot 3, then you would achieve balance, but a problem lies within the system on that.

The HAM costs for special moves are nothing more than multipliers for the skill on whatever the HAM cost for the weapon is, and they do have logical limits. This is implied about the system through almost every combat subsystem in the game.

This means that to truly achieve this, the scatter pistol would have to carry the same HAM encumberance as the most heavy rifle. This would imbalance all other pistol moves using the scatter pistol.

/sigh Yep, everything is double edged in game design post release. Everything.

Of course, considering alot of folks can be one shot killed by riflemen, moving the headshot 3 cost to action would also have an imbalancing effect for similar reasons. Rifleman would then = BH, if you combined medic with it, and one second tier profession alone should never equal one that requires almost all skill points.

BH basically = 3 second tier professions rolled into one neat constrictive package with a couple benefits to giving up the ability to learn more.

Thus, it would appear the best solution would be to allow /conceal to work in PvP, but only for one shot. The /conceal timer should be adjusted to the exact time the devs believe it should take for a sniper to aquire their target, which would be based on the average length of most battles where larger scale tactics come into play.

This would still leave an imbalance if BHs and riflemen go toe to toe with no element of surprise.

Most believe that a BH should win every time against any profession when toe to toe and not surprised except commando, which should be an even match, or jedi, in which case the BH should lose. I am one who believes that, though I would hate to discover that balance issues cannot be considered without profession bias.

The question, I guess, comes down to this: In PvP should all classes be created equal, but in PvE some have an obvious edge?

That gets into design philosophy, which involves personal perception and tastes, thus makes it impossible to logically debate in an impartial manner. Nonetheless, I think it is a question that needs to be answered in SWG, and needs to be answered now, for the sake of balance and peace of mind (not to mention peace on the boards).

The question then becomes whether the devs will guess at what the players want based on what's on the boards, do what they personally believe is best, or hold an open vote once such a system exists at login.

Quite the pickle, huh?

I should also elaborate on the idea that a BH should win toe to toe with any profession. This is based on a mental model assuming that the person the BH goes toe to toe with only has that other profession. If someone spends all their skill points soley on combat classes other than BH or commando, they should still be able to take down a BH or at least tie.

I normally don't like PvP in SWG due to AT-STs, but have had the pleasure of participating in some fights without them recently, and they were the first fun PvP I've taken part in, in this game. Of course, that's another issue altogether.

The point is the outcome. When facing a novice rifleman, I got him weakened, but I got mind bled and died first. After the death, I swung ack out and attacked again, and took back the FP I lost.

When facing a commando, I had to call out petly assistance. I won that fight, but if it weren't for the pets, the commando would have owned me.

I took on a pistoleer/ CH, and even though they were incapped, their pet incapped me. It then became a race to see who woke up first, which couldn't complete because a fellow rebel intervened.

BHs are by no means immortal. We're strong, yes, but the question that many BH ask is "are you ONLY a pistoleer or ONLY a rifleman or ONLY a carbineer?"

The key to taking us down SHOULD be matching us skill point to skill point -OR- if you're facing a BH who likes to spam moves, having the master skill of that particular move type...

ack I write posts that are too long.. Excuse me

U) Umm...all riflemen specials use mind primarily. And all players use mind for healing, not just BHs. How is it a 'huge drawback' for BHs to use mind for eyeshot (and thus have less for healing) when riflemen already have that penalty?

M) Because missions given to BHs in PvE involve MUCh more difficult enemies. BHs and commandos actually have to face AT-STs on faction missions, for example, and that's only at 0-1-2-1

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Meyree wrote:

U) Umm...all riflemen specials use mind primarily. And all players use mind for healing, not just BHs. How is it a 'huge drawback' for BHs to use mind for eyeshot (and thus have less for healing) when riflemen already have that penalty?

M) Because missions given to BHs in PvE involve MUCh more difficult enemies. BHs and commandos actually have to face AT-STs on faction missions, for example, and that's only at 0-1-2-1

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Meyree wrote:

BHs are by no means immortal. We're strong, yes, but the question that many BH ask is "are you ONLY a pistoleer or ONLY a rifleman or ONLY a carbineer?"

The key to taking us down SHOULD be matching us skill point to skill point -OR- if you're facing a BH who likes to spam moves, having the master skill of that particular move type...

ack I write posts that are too long.. Excuse me

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