Rifleman Archive

I agree with Grodaak, with nearly every statement he has made in this thread.

Right or wrong, here is my suggestion:

-Remove all mention of sniping from the skill lists and titles of the Rifleman.

-Change the name of Rifleman to something like Gunner. They will be defined as experts in the use of large guns (not heavy weapons, large guns or whatever technical term should be used; I am no expert on military jargon). When the space expansion is released they would then get bonuses andskills dealing withthe use of certain ships weapons, specifically small to mid-sized "beam weapons". An example would be a laser turret of a size generally used on fighters (as the turrets on the Melenium Falcon), but would not include missiles or the largest of ships guns.

-Create a class known as Sniper. The requirements would be steep due to the fact that "His profession demands a dedication... that few others even consider..." and the fact that it is "A hard life of extraordinarily high expectations..." that "(few) are capable..." of handling. I propose the following requirements for the class:

>> Master Ranger (141 pts)

>> Rifle Specialist (14 pts + 15 for Novice Marksman)

>> Ranged Support Ability Specialist (14 pts, Novice Marksman previously figured in)

The tree for the Sniper profession would cost 63 points in total which bring the grand total to:

247 out of 250 points ... 3 remaining.

I believe this meets or exceeds the requirement of it being "A hard life of extraordinarily high expectations..."

Regardless of anything else, the word "Sniping" should be removed from the text of Rifleman as it is misleading.

I will agree that if we aren't supposed to be snipers hen remove the title. It gives unrealistic hope to those of us who are working towards being that.

i read somone whineing up a few posts about how we riflemen want bla bla bla .... all i have seen with regards to the one shot onje kill idea is people asking for a CHANCE of it happening. I think if they are going to make our penal;tys the way they are 2.5 added damage /SLOW weapons and giveing our targets the druid gate ability then we need to have the chance to oneshot people .

I do unfortunatly agree that against a melee we should die 9 out of 10 times at close range the 1 time we win we get away running like the little melee wimps we are and they burned burst getting to us.

BHs i hate to be slamming them they are a good class and dserve to be good fighters however eyeshot should do less damage and be only at a short range of say max 15 meters i really can't see you ever no matter how skilld getting to hit the eye of a target more often at 60 meters then a "sniper" the title is there so deal) can hit the targets head. heads being slightly larger then eyes should make snipers hit ALOT more often and a hell of alot harder

I doubt that any devs will ever read this post as the CSRs can';t even read the dang holocron messages but at least we can all bitch towards each other.

helos

nerfeded CH

Nerfeded riflegimp

EternalN00b you're forgetting something important, the -real- question is what abilities would you give the sniper, what skills, bonuses, etc. And don't even start with the "well real snipers can..." talk, this is a game, the class needs to be balanced around that fact. Once you decide what would be necessary to make a sniper profession in SWG, stop and ask, would the devs implement this? the answer will be no.Since we cannot have the awesome abilities of a real sniper, we will have to make due with trying to get improvements on what we do have. RogueII will -never- be pleased with a sniper class in SWG, it would never live up to his ideals of the word 'sniper' that's why I said this thread is pointless, there's nothing constructive about it.

To paraphrase a roleplaying game that hasquite a bit of ranged combatin it "a good rifleman can deny an area, rake a group, or hit a target with one well placed shot" As a rifleman/marksman I can do all those things to some degree, myprofession has the versatility, once the bugs in our class are fixed we'll be even better. We have been given 4 skill trees for versatility and most of you are complaining because -one- of them isn't powerful enough, that is what I find sad about this thread.

Rifleman can obviously be seen as intended to be a Sniper class. Sharpshooting is usually another term for sniping. Note Master Sharpshooter. A lot of our skills are much more benefited from being in the prone position, and a lot of the skill mods and such are basically gearing you towards such behavior the.

Rifleman en generale :This guy is usually amongst the infantry with everyone else and hes shooting off a rifle in the fray like the guy beside him is shooting off a carbine. I.E. A M-16 is a rifle a M4 is a Carbine, but they are often fired in CQB and such. If you watched Episode II the Clone's were using Rifles and they werent getting into 'sniper' positions to do so. It was simply their weapon, high powered, lower rate of fire weapons most likely.

Snipers: A *Specific* type of Rifleman, focused on pinpoint shots, deadly accuracy, and timing. This guy is usually in a support role and is more or less on the outskirts of the ensuing battle.

My point is a MASTER Rifleman is someone who can utilize rifles in ANY role he desires. Just like a Master Brawler is adept at the use of all melee weapons. Some situations would be better unarmed, some a sword, or a polearm. A Master Rifleman will be a SNIPER and a normal infantryman. We are supposed to not only be SNIPERS but be mastered at the uses of any rifles that are not classified sniper rifles.

Lets not forget we have Sniping/Counter sniping branches that further emphasize on this. Also as a solution for the big gap between those who believe we are not snipers and those who do not was proposed earlier in the thread elite-elite classes for "Sniping" branching from pre-reqs of countersnipe/and sniping accuracy though this would be a bit redundant.

Also another point, what difference are we from the other ranged classes specifically Carbineers? We have the 2.5x damage for a reason. We were probably intended to be Snipers not simple infantryman like in WWII with M1 Garands or grunts in modern days with M16s. We take the 2.5x dmg because we are intended to kill in one or very few shots, and if the target closes us the penalty is usually near or instant death. That is the trade off and the balance. This was screwed up though and we are effectively gimped as Rogue has very well illustrated. Most of our weapons look just as much as carbines as they do Rifles. What true Rifles are in the Rifleman class? Tusken rifle, DLT20/a Rifle, T-21, CDEF..Thats about it. The spraystick, Jawa ion rifle, SG82, E-11 all look just as much as rifles as they do carbines. They'd easily fit in with a carbineer. The E-11 was made in variants to serve as a rifle as well although. We are severely lacking, I am playing this character to be a Sniper. I could easily go Carbineer and end up with the same results at Master Carb as I would at Master Rifleman, hit the speed cap, firing weapons that look the same as a majority of the Rifleman weapons, no 2.5-3.5x dmg modifier for melee and less position/range penalties.

Brings me to another point: Notice we were intended to fire from maximum range. A normal rifleman like a guy with a M-16 is usually doing CQB. A guy with a M-25 is sniping from long range. It appears even more so we were intended as Snipers before being general Rifleman.

Frankly I think that all the ham specific pool shots should be removed from the othe ranged classes and become the specialty of the Rifleman. Or if not removed DOT+Damage shots to specific pools. Anything to be debilitating as well as death delivering. A "Sniper" should know his targets weakpoints and not be forced into only one area. I.E. if you've studied your opponent before combat and noticed he has less ham in one bar, you can target that.

I know a Carbineer or a Pistoleer has just as much right to fire specific shots as they are equally important but not specific to their roles. Snipers do need these very specific pinpoint shots and SWG translates those as Health/action/mind specific shots.

This post is too long by now heh..so I'll cut it off here

Frailboy you assume far too much. Please do not put words in my mouth.

You have completely missed my point from the start and I do not appreciate you posting an assumption ofwhat I would like and wouldn't like. You do not know me or anything about me other than what I have posted. I have never said that the rifleman profession is not powerful enough, my whole pointthroughout thisthreadhas beenthis:

Arifleman is NOT a Sniper simply because he has received some training in Sniper fieldcraft. In SWG, neither you, nor I, or anyone has the right to wear the Sniper title, because thereare NO Snipers in SWG. Just becausesomeone carries a rifle and can occasionally hit a target dead center or pull off a 2 inch cluster does not makethem a Sniper. It makesthem a sharpshooter.

And hey whaddya know, there 's a good replacement for the Sniper title,Expert Sharpshooter.

As I stated in my earlier post, all I really want at this point is the Sniper title removed from the rifleman profession. Period.

If folks want to be Snipers in SWG, make it a seperate, very costly and difficult to obtain title, as it would be anywhere, in a game or not. The abilities for a Sniper are pretty cut and dried, they kill targets from concealed positions with as few well placed shots as necessary, they are mastersof camoflage and wilderness survival, and their weapons are notoriously fragile andslow yet powerful and feared tools of death. That would be no different in the Star Wars universe. I will not be sucked into an argument over what the specific attacks and abilities the Sniper should have in SWG because SOE and LucasArts can figure that out without my help, it's not MY place to make those suggestions. As I've said I'm not a programmer, I do not know what can and cannot be done, and I do not like to speculate or make blind stabs in the dark.

"And don't even start with the "well real snipers can..." talk, this is a game"

Yes, it is a game, but all games in some way emulate real life, and if they're going to include a real world title like Sniper, the title needs to carry with itthat which isnecessary to fufill that title. Otherwise its just a bunch of wannabe'sdisplaying a title they do not deserve anddid not rightfully earn, which is whymy characterhas never and will never display the Sniper title, out of respect. It's inaccurate due to the way the professionhas been currently definedby the developers.

Frailboy, this thread is in fact constructive. I see plenty of suggestions and ideas for improvement. Just because these ideas and opinions differ from yours does make them not constructive.

Constructive (adj) : helping to construct; leading to improvement.

(Webster's New World ISBN: 0-02-861318)

If the class is not intended to be a sniper, then there should be no mention of sniping in it's skill trees. This is false advertising, it is misleading. This leads to people feeling cheated. A (hopefully) simple database edit could eliminate that problem.

As for what skills a Sniper class should have... I think Deyth of The Combine put it best (and I am likely paraphrasing here)

"As the customer I expect to be the recipient of the answer, not it's originator."

But I'll give it a shot anyway.

Given surprise at maximum range, a Sniper should win.

Given maximum range and no surprise, a Sniper should be able to sucessfully flee very often.

Given medium range and surprise, a Sniper should have about a 50% chance to win.

Given medium range an no surprise,a Sniper should have a small chance to sucessfully flee.

Given short range regardless of surprise, a Sniper should lose.

A Sniper should have some mechanic to facilitate this surprise.

This mechanic cannot be infalible or completely un-counterable.

The point cost for a Master Sniper should be huge.

Feel free to build on this.

"This thread makes me wonder...is a true "sniper" class viable in any MMORPG?"

"No one wants one-shot kills, yet that is the very essence of a sniper. No one wants extreme range differences, again the forte of a sniper."

Bothvery well made points, and I am in total agreement. For the sake of balance, it really isn't a viable class/profession. A Sniper is unseen, the most accurate soldier on the field, and one shot kills are his only hope of survival. This makes for VERY difficult balancing in a game such as SWG. It needs to be removed.

"I don't know if this sort of gameplay is even supportable in any game like this, and continually wonder why the developers of the games keep sticking the class in there."

Again, agreed 100%.

"My point is a MASTER Rifleman is someone who can utilize rifles in ANY role he desires....A Master Rifleman will be a SNIPER and a normal infantryman."

I have to disagree on that, because to be a Sniper a candidate must already be a Master Rifleman. Sniper training expounds on training already received to elevate that knowledge to a higher level, i.e. Sniper Fieldcraft. Even a Master Rifleman would not receive the specialized accuracy, concealment, and fieldcraft training that a Sniper does, that is reserved for the select few who choose to take that difficult road. Sniper and rifleman are two very different professions and should be represented as such, or Sniper should just be removed altogether.

"Frankly I think that all the ham specific pool shots should be removed from the othe ranged classes and become the specialty of the Rifleman. Or if not removed DOT+Damage shots to specific pools. Anything to be debilitating as well as death delivering. A "Sniper" should know his targets weakpoints and not be forced into only one area. I.E. if you've studied your opponent before combat and noticed he has less ham in one bar, you can target that.

I know a Carbineer or a Pistoleer has just as much right to fire specific shots as they are equally important but not specific to their roles. Snipers do need these very specific pinpoint shots and SWG translates those as Health/action/mind specific shots."

This I agree with as well, as I said in my original post. A Sniper is in a support role, unless deployed as an assassination team. Snipers are intended to support their unit and direct fire where it is most effective. Since SWG is so group oriented, it's pointless to be forced to target one specific stat pool as the rest of my "unit" is more often than not doing damage to pools I cannot target, therefore erasing my role as support.

Grodaak

"I don't know if this sort of gameplay is even supportable in any game like this, and continually wonder why the developers of the games keep sticking the class in there."

Maybe not 100% supportable, but they could come a lot closer than they are. Like I've said before, if the Devs would at least define us as Rifleman (I.E. Marine Corp Riflman=Infantry) or Snipers (I.E. an actual sniper wether as a support role for a group, spec ops hunter killer teams, or a law enforcment marksman/observer team. Most of work alone or more often in pairs having an observer teamed with a sniper). If we are just supposed to be Infantry with a better proficiency with a rifle. Great, thanks for the info, I'm out of here. If we are supposed to be actual snipers, thanks for the info but here is some insight into what a sniper is and can do. I don't think anyone would be wrong in thinking that we are supposed to be snipers. The titles, abilities, even the fact that we get one entire rifle in the whole profession to use, would lead a reasonable person to believe that this would be a sniper. OK, so they throw in the title soldier, but aren't a lot of snipers also soldiers (most if not all of the branches of service tell you, you are a soldier, marine, airman, or sailor before you are anything else).

"My point is a MASTER Rifleman is someone who can utilize rifles in ANY role he desires....A Master Rifleman will be a SNIPER and a normal infantryman."

If we are snipers and normal infantryman then I want grenades **edit** it and the ability to call for artillery support.

"In SWG, neither you, nor I, or anyone has the right to wear the Sniper title, because thereare NO Snipers in SWG." -RogueII

I will call myself whatever I want. I will shoot rubberbands at people and declare myself the best sniper in the universe if I please. That is my 'right'. It may not be true, but whether you agree with it or not means nothing. The game is for the pleasure of the players(and to make Sony money) and if people want to try to be snipers, if they admire that title, and enjoy the game because they can -try- to be like one, let them.

"Yes, it is a game, but all games in some way emulate real life" -RogueII

Yeah they do, and this game emulates STAR WARS.How would you know what a star wars sniper is like? Did Queen Amidala get sniped in episode 2? No. No one ever gets picked off from 500m out in the movies or any of the books I've read. The Empire is a military organization and I've never seen any stormtroopers running around with a sniper rifle. So I can't see where you have the 'right' to tell us what a star wars sniper is.

There have been some constructive comments here, the -type- of comments that are no help go along the lines of-

My gunslinger can't quick draw and kill people in one on one before they get a shot off, remove the title.

My commando can't sneak up behind another player and slit their throat without making any noise, remove the profession.

My scout can't use binoculars to spot enemies from a kilometer away, remove the profession.

If you guys want to discuss things great, but at least have some points worth discussing.

"SWG doesn't live up to my standards soban everything that offends me" is not a valid point IMHO.

"The game is for the pleasure of the players(and to make Sony money) and if people want to try to be snipers, if they admire that title, and enjoy the game because they can -try- to be like one, let them." -Frailboy-

We admire the title of Sniper.

We are trying to be like one.

The ability to be like one does not exist in this game, whether it should or not is another debate entirely.

We are asking that the documentation that implies that you may be a sniper in this game be removed for the sake of honesty.

I am offering suggestions as to the guidelines for the implementation of a sniper class.

If there were a class called Atomic Engineer which had NuclearExplosive Engineering and ICBM Production as skill lines in it, I would be disappointed to find out that ICBM stood for "Intergalactic Coal Burning Motors" and that NEE focused on causing the collision of 2 individual particles for experimentation purposes. I would be disappointed because I was lead to believe I would be making Nuclear Missiles.

You know, I hate adding to big ole posts like this. But I gotta give a word.

One: So many things in the rifleman line do indeed lead one to think of them as snipers. Simple case in point, myself. I happen to be a huge Hong Kong Action Movie fan. Pistol monkeys are the king of the subtitled screen. Im also a really huge Sniper movie and book fan, as well as being a bigger fan of them in real life. Simply by the names, I was given the impression that rifleman where snipers. Given that they arn't really, I still stick with. Mainly cause im a stubborn **edit**, but mostly because I have hope for them in the long run.

Two: Someone mentioned earlier that rifleman could also be Machine Gunners........you know when I here rifleman I think of guys in trenches with M1-Garands. Wich the marines prided themselves on accuracy. Machine gunner though.......we got a couple of AOE abilitys.......and to make things worse, there in the "Counter-Sniping" line...... usually it was the job of the sniper to take out the machine gunner because he was the one who could quietly get into a well covered position and take the machine gunner out quickly.

Three: I never except a one shot one kill.........at least, not on the PvP front. It would be to un-far. As far as PvE....... ya **edit** right it'd be nice. For starters, I think the happy folks at Sony should have a double rules set. Whats that? Well, one ability, should work 2 different ways. As it applies to PCs, as it applies to NPCs. At rifleman accuracy IV......we get Sniper Shot......an ability that has absolutely no game effect other then for PvP use......so......if your not a big fan of PvP (Im to nice a guy. Id hate to think I ruined some ones day and Id rather not have them ruin mine. I wanna PvP i'll go play an FPS, where MY skill and reaction time are the deciding factor) it means jack to you. What they SHOULD do is make it so sniper shot in PvP does nothing but death blow at range. Essentially what it does now. BUT!!! It should do wicked stupid damage if used on a NPC, Creature, etc.

Four: Props to the aim increasing dmg idea. For the longest time I swore it did. Probably my imagination but hey.

Five: Wizards...............Deal big dmg.......really slow.......if gets hit in melee crumples like a paper sack...... anyone notice simularitys between rifleman and wizards?

Six: Our HAM costs are to high.......

Seven: I hope I can never heal mind......it means the other guy can to......mind you, again, our ability to target mind only really matters in PvP as the NPCs are to stupid to heal each other..........

Eight: I hate to say this, but in relation to the machine gunner statement earlier..........I was informed, though I haven't gotten this confirmed, that (weapon) speed bonuses where a percentage reduction.....if thats the case, it does lend credent to an MGer idea. Why do I say that? I've got a 3.6 speed E11 and a buddy of mine has a 1.8 speed FWG5..........crunch some numbers (Im a math wiz, so don't tell me to ignore numbers) and low and behold.....at master rifleman, I'll shoot faster then a master pistoleer.........

Nine: Given that.......his same FWG5 has a 69 relative DPS off of base weapon stats and my Pre-Nerf 35% dmg sliced T21 made bya **edit** good weaponsmith has a 62 DPS. Thats factoring in the 20% cumalitve increases for the armour piercing, wich if those don't work, so much bigger my case. All in all, the FWG5 has a much better DPS then T21 at standard, and against light armour. It only starts to work poorly against Medium and Heavy........ Base weapons in my opinion, should have relatively same DPSes......Rifles should be slower, more dmg. Mistols should be fast, little dmg. Carbines should be right in the middle......NOT on the worse side of that middle........sorry......shout out for my friend the carbineer, and the sucky carbines he uses..........

Mind you nine could possibly be ignored and flamed apon as the result of rifleman eventually being able to shoot faster then pistoleers.......so whatever..........

"How can you put a price on a human life?"

"Easy......13 cents........."

"What do you mean, 13 cents?"

"13 cents......the price of a bullet during the vietnam war........it costs 13 cents to kill someone. Thats why they called the marine snipers '13 Cent Killers'"

Windego/Big Game hunter(Rifleman-CreatureHandler)/Kauri

After some thought, I feel that if they would just fix the concealment/cover issues, I would be pretty much satisfied with my abilities as a "sniper" with respect to game balance issues. I don't need extra damage or longer range or "one shot, one kill." Just let me be a sneaky mo-fo, and I will be happy.

My points have been made, my opinion has been voiced. Further bickering with people I do not know is a waste ofvaluable time, energy,and forum space. There have been some very valid points laid forth in this post and I thank and appreciate all who have taken the time and contributed thier own opinions and thoughts, everyone who has posted.

Perhaps we will get lucky and someone from the dev Team will take notice of some of the suggestions and ideas presented here in this thread and the others on this forum. That was my only goalin posting. If not, then at least we've had a chance to speak our piece.

Grodaak