Rifleman Archive
Thread: Nerf This.
Talkawa wrote:
I havent seen anyone point out that Carbineer's and Pistoleer's have other proffesions to improve they're base weapon, unlike Rifleman who cant pick up anything after Master RIfleman to improve rifles, I was a Pistoleer/BH and I owned plenty of Rifleman, and no BH takes a helluva lot less SP then it did before, not they can even get some smuggler Pistols, never been a carbineer other than in BH and theres no reason why you cant pick that up and improve tremendously in offense if you add up all the speed mods and accuracy mods etc etc it comes up higher then Rifleman
Marksman 4/4/4/4 (master)
Bounty Hunter 0/4/0/0
Carbineer4/4/4/4 (master)
- Carbine Accuracy +190
- Carbine Accuracy while moving +30
- Carbine Aiming +25
- Carbine Speed +115
- Counter Attack+105
- Defense vs. Knockdown +15
- Melee Defense +2
- Range Defense +42
The only thing you need to do at this point is figure out how to bring up your Counter Attack to the cap and try to bring your KD, Melee and Range defenses up as high as possible using your left over skill points. Actually your best bet would be to pick up as much TK as possible for their added bonus plus some useful melee skills for added flexibility.
Brawler 4/0/0/0
Marksman 4/4/4/4 (master)
Bounty Hunter 0/4/0/0
Carbineer4/4/4/4 (master)
Tera Kasi 3/0/0/4
- Carbine Accuracy +190
- Carbine Accuracy while moving +30
- Carbine Aiming +25
- Carbine Speed +115
- Combat Equilibrium +10
- Counter Attack+105
- Defense Acuity +71
- Defense vs. Knockdown +15
- Melee Defense +64
- Range Defense +87
With this build the player now covers all but blast, cold, and lightsaberdamage for weapons along with gaining more defenses. Swordsman would stack for Counter Attack but the Defense Acuity from TKM works with all professions and basically enhances your chances at successfully Counter Attacking a shot. By having the 3 blocks in meditate you can cure your poisons and diseases along with getting the option to power boost. Using doctor buffs, entertainer buffs and food you pretty much negate the HAM costs from use of the carbine.
Oh and just a side note here's what a pure rifleman gets defenses/offenses just for comparison:
- Block +80
- Defense Vs. Blind +10
- Defense Vs. Dizzy +10
- Defense Vs. Posture Change (up) +30*
- Defense Vs. Stun +10
- Melee Defense +40
- Range Defense +72
- Rifle Accuracy +160
- Rifle Accuracy while moving +10
- Rifle Aiming +100
- Rifle Speed +90
Sure we have 3 state effect defensesmore than Carbineers but our posture change defense is for posture up. The only class who has any posture up attacks are rifleman so this defense is only effective against other rifleman. Rifleman speeds don't cap until +95 which can be obtained at either Master Marksman or by adding in skill tapes and/or plates. One more thing to keep in mind is that use ofany skill enhancement tape or plate will never go beyond +25 as almost all enhancements to skills cap at this level (bio clothes included).
One thing we can't do is an offensive stacktowith another professionand use attacks from one class with another. The most flexable class being pistoleer as there are many ways now to build on this class. One that we've recently completed and tested is a Pistoleer/BH/Smuggler/Commando combo. This was never possible until recently thanks to the BH requirement changes. One downside to this build is that there isn't any way to self heal but other than that the combo can deal out some decent damage.
Brawler 4/0/0/0
Marksman 4/4/4/4 (master)
Bounty Hunter 0/0/4/0
Commando 0/0/0/0 (novice)
Pistoleer 4/4/4/4 (master)
Smuggler 0/0/4/0
Tera Kasi 0/0/0/0
- Combat Equilibrium +10
- Defense Acuity +15
- Defense Vs. Blind +40
- Defense Vs. Dizzy +40
- Defense Vs. Knockdown +50
- Defense Vs. Posture Change (down)+20
- Defense Vs. Stun +40
- Dodge +105
- Melee Defense +49
- Range Defense +22
- Pistol Accuracy +155
- Pistol Accuracy while moving +30
- Pistol Accuracy while standing +15
- Pistol Aiming +16
- Pistol Speed +129
This build will allow one to torso shot with a launcher pistol, eyeshot with the DE-10 or Geonosian Blaster, Low Blow with a scatter pistol, Fan Shot with the launcher for turret destruction in under 2 minutes (healer needed), and many more combinations. Really this build is completely deadly in PvP as there areseveral mind shots in this build. Low Blow and Eyeshot both target the mind and if you're lucky enough to find let say a Mind Fire Geonosian Blaster you could also drop a Torso shot (adds Fire to health) for the repeat incap beyond 3 times bug.
The real sad part here is that to gain the best of our classes we must stack up attacks/defenses and worse yet this game allows us to do so. Any pure single combat elite (meaning they are just Master Pistoleer or Master Fencer with no other combat profession) is at a huge disadvantage when compared to these builds. Add in the fact that after Publish 10 people will be able to dabble in Force Sensitive Defenses it's likely that we'll see an even greater imbalance between classes for the near endless stacking possibilities.
What the real issue/problem is with combat and the imbalances it has caused was ushered in late December and early/mid January as buffs (food and doctor) became a viable option. Without buffs it was hard to find any rifleman wearing armor and especially a full suit of composite armor. Currently the worst part of the buff system is the fact that you can get a +1400 - +1800 secondary standing after equipping heavy composite. It's these high secondary pools that negate any damage dealt by any class outside those who do AP3 at high rates of speed. Also, being that you can get your health and action secondary pools well over 3.8k (buffs, food, and meditate) the mind is still the weakest as many specials drain from this pool.
The mind pool can be healed (CM tree 0400 I think)
As a rifleman I suck because the weapons needed to be "good" are so expensive I will never own one myself.
With new 40% stun armor, buy a helmet and chestplate and they have to have an "uber" jawa to hurt you
Dancer/Musician mind buffs make it difficult to kill you if you have armor on.
Try kiting them. Kite a rifleman? Oh yea, if the rifleman keeps moving it makes it terrible hard to hit you, especially if both of you are moving.
Stay close to them, hide in your useless factional base, or a public structure that a tef will not eject you, its very hard to hit anything at close range.
Use mind food such as canape, brandy, and muon gold
Rifleman are not so tough, before I was one I was un-buffed and loaded into a SP on correlia, oh crap a buffed overt rebel (no this was not coronet
) and Im un-buffed without armor. So I pop a pixie (my mind stats are highest and tka specials are similiar to the /kill command in cs) and what do you know, I kill him because he is stupid enough to walk into the sp right after me at nearly point blank.No rifleman are not CM where the only "strategy" is to go doctor, rifleman you use strategy against and you win.
If anything needs to be nerfed, it would be the weaponsmith that makes the guns.
P.S. Devs need to fix sevral attacks that are literraly useless in the rifleman skill trees
GutsTheBerserker wrote:
The major issue with rifel man is, they are to damb fast thats the only part that needs nerfing. yes rifelman are supose to be high damage, and yes they are supose to be high range, but there not supose to be able to hit you as fast as a friggin TKM with 2wice the friggin damage.
and if you say there not overpowered go to dath and follow one on an enranged raincore mission dont help him let him do it. now watch as his finishes the mission in 30 seconds....... notice something rong yet no other profetion in the game can kill enranged raincor layers with all the spawn in 30 seconds, i timed it. they need a speed nerf plain and simple and then people wont complain anymore. im not saying a rediculous number 2.5 would be good
That is a myth. Rifles are as fast as they are suppose to be. The Rifleman speed mod has been there since launch.
I have done Rancor missions on Dath. Both with just Rifleman and with TKA. I can do both with about equal ease. I may take a bit longer using TKA but I also take a lot less damage in return. I've also seen other professions solo MOB's that I would be hard pressed to survive against. Some professions are good against some MOB's. That is the why it is suppose to be. No all professions are suppose to have the same chance against every target.
There is no need for a speed nerf. Nor does the constant comment that "rifles fire slow" make any sense. They fire as fast as any other small arm. Which is why militaries use them. Even in SW.
The advantage of the Rifleman is damage. They are weak in other areas such as defense. Other professions are high in defense but weak in damage. The other thing is that Rifleman is one of the few mostly working professions. You can't compare a broken one with a working one and say the working one is overpowered. The fact is in that case the broken one is underpowered because it is broken.
It's about every profession having a role. A weakness and strength that can be used and exploited.
DavidGX wrote:
Just an extra note... most rifleman you meet in combat are NOT just rifleman. No matter how uber they seem, it's probably rifle/doc, or rifle/fencer, or rifle/tkm, or some combination of rifleman and other profs that raise their defenses making them seem stronger than base rifleman really are. Never assume that standard base master rifleman are as uber as the one that just pwned you. There's a 9 out of 10 chance that it's not just master rifleman and nothing else.
sorry daivd if they nurfed tk for being too strong then rifleman has to get nurfed. it is too uber no a days so nurf it!
Message Edited by LiakyK on 07-20-2004 02:19 PM
GutsTheBerserker wrote:
The major issue with rifel man is, they are to damb fast thats the only part that needs nerfing. yes rifelman are supose to be high damage, and yes they are supose to be high range, but there not supose to be able to hit you as fast as a friggin TKM with 2wice the friggin damage.
and if you say there not overpowered go to dath and follow one on an enranged raincore mission dont help him let him do it. now watch as his finishes the mission in 30 seconds....... notice something rong yet no other profetion in the game can kill enranged raincor layers with all the spawn in 30 seconds, i timed it. they need a speed nerf plain and simple and then people wont complain anymore. im not saying a rediculous number 2.5 would be good
First, a Master Rifleman firing his best special (Strafeshot2) using a typical 7.5 speed T21 does fire at, guess what:
Actual Speed = WeaponSpeed x SpecialDelay * (1 - (PersonalSpeedMod * .01))
Actual Speed = 7.5 x 3.5 * ((100 - 90) * .01) = 7.5 x 3.5 x .10 = 2.6 seconds per shot.
It sounds like we are already firing at your preferred speed.
Without speed enhancements, a Master Rifleman cannot hit the speed cap with his highest damage weapon with Strafeshot2 or even Flushingshot2 (his next highest damage special).Besides, you need to quit comparing apples to oranges. The reason a Rifleman can take down an Enraged Rancor lair so fast is that Rancors are most vulnerable to Acid damage, and guess what? Riflemen have an AP2 Acid damage rifle, the DXR6b. They are vulnerable to one of our best weapons, so, guess what?That means we are supposed to take them out fast. Even then, without speed enhancements or speed slices and speed powerups, the typical 5.8 DXR6b will only fire Strafeshot2 at about 2 seconds per shot.
Second, every profession...every profession... is capable of hitting the speed cap with the right buld from other professions and/or speed enhancing attachments or the right combination of powerups and speed slices or their weapon. Especially with the changes to BH, Carbineer and Pistoleer can do it without evenusing speed tapes now ... and still have points to spend. Outside of getting Master Marksman to pickup +5 to speed and a couple of minimally useful specials from Ranged Support (minimal at Master, that is), rifleman cannot do anything to improve their skills directly other than picking up speed or other skill enhancing attachments. Add to that the fact that Riflemen have virtually no status effects. They have a delay that only works against other riflemen, and only then if they use the /TakeCover command, which no one in their right mind. Their posture change up shots are useless in PvP. And Dizzy only works for a KD if you can get someone to voluntarily change posture once you dizzy them. Thus, Stun is the only effect that has any real use for a Rifleman. Therefore, speed and damage are all we have.
But at the same time, we have poor defenses as a Rifleman. Yes, we get +40 to melee defense, but it is completely negated by the to-hit bonus against us if we are holding our rifle. We have no KD defense and our posture change defense is against, agains, posture changes up. And when that TK, which you are claiming is supposed to be faster than us, gets within melee range, what is the first thing he does? He does a Dizzy/KD on us. Tell me, then, what is my DPS (damage per second) with my high speed and high damage rifle while I am Dizzy/KDed? While I am holding my rifle, what is that TK's chances of missing me, and what is the damage being done to me?
While I am KDed, my DPS is 0. While he is in range, whether I am KDed or not, if I am holding my rifle, that same TK has about the same chance of missing me as he does missing the side of a barn at 1 foot. And while I am KDed, I am taking two times the damage, and he can blind me, stun me, make me dizzy, and even attack my mind.
You simply do not understand the game mechanics if you think that everyone is supposed to have all that they have, and the same DPS as we have. All we have is damage, and that comes, not just from high damage weapons, but from speed as well. That is all we have.
Besides, as I said, you are comparing apples to oranges, but in more ways than even what I mentioned. A Master Rifleman does not hit with his highest damage specials at the speed cap without 1) sacrificing damage for speed slices and speed powerups or 2) getting help from speed tapes or from Master Marksman plus speed tapes.
are you kidding me? hiher Damage weapons.... have you checked the flame throwers latley? 487-998 dmg? gtf out of here
Rifles having longest range? Well, last time i checked, pistols, carbines, AND rifles all could shoot up to 64m and no further.
Rifles having low defense? Have you looked at the total ranged/melee defense of a rifleman? Carbineers dont have any of those (like 25 total) and pistoleer has only melee defense.
Pool damage is the problem, the ability to repetitively hit the ONLY unhealable pool is what sets them apart. If pool damage was removed and the shots were used to target the weakest parts of the body and just do random HAM damage it would balance a lot of combat out. You could still kill someones mind pool off but it would be much more difficult.
Leave mind unhealable also. If you made mind healable by anyone then everyone would become a doctor and use the stims that cure 2k+ to every pool. There is no way in hell that someone could die if they could just keep healing every HAM bar. Thats part of the problem nowadays is that people who CAN heal H/A bars can heal them for so much.
Rifleman aren't fully overpowered, but yes, overpowered to an extent. There ability to perform actions faster and much more damaging than the other ranged professions makes them more powerful than the other professions. If you put a buffed/unarmored rifleman vs. a buffed/unarmored carbineer (both of them at least a little pvp-smart), with no other secondary skills, the rifleman would always win. Thakitillo food prevents the carbineers KD, carbineers lower damage and damage that mainly targets healable pools cant compete with headshot to any degree. They could try to move closer but they sacrifice their own accuracy by doing so and it still doesnt compare to a rifleman's accuracy.
A lot needs to be done to professions and there is no telling exactly what needs to be done.. But in the mean time we can stick with what we have in hopes that we survive in the long run.