Rifleman Archive

Thread: Is T21 Really better than a higher dmg laser?

Legion24
Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:19 pm
#27

Thanks guys, gals, and wookies. I got the answers I was looking for. Thanks for all your input.
Feynan
Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:58 am
#28

I think people are too quick to judge on this.


My T21 is 162-603 (with powerup)

My Laser is 109-798 (with powerup)


The difference between the min-damages isn't that big, even though yes Lasers do have a low min damage. The max damage difference is just under 200. Now, the key difference between the Laser and T21 is the AP, which is a difference of 1 AP or 25% damage against an unarmored target.


So, if you shoot with a T21 you'll get 25% extra damage. Well, 25% of 600 is about 750, which makes it still 50 damage below the Laser. Now, the Laser is also about 50 damage below in terms of the min damage, so I guess it all evens out.



Colonel Feynan Forsythe
Alliance Ace Pilot
UWSkeletor
Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:44 am
#29






israiley wrote:

i keep hearing how accuracy has nothing to do with saber block, but that makes absolutely no sense. something has to determine how often you hit the jedi. it can't just be random. so i ask everyone that says accuracy is not a factor, what does determine when you get a hit?






The problem is that first your accuracy gets weighed against their ranged defense to determine if it's a "hit". Then, they get some kind of "saber block" chance for that hit. I don't think anyone has determined exactly how this works, but it just seems to be a random chance, where, I think I've heard it will turn out to be about an 85% chance of blocking the shot.



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Valcyn
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israiley
Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:21 pm
#30

i keep hearing how accuracy has nothing to do with saber block, but that makes absolutely no sense. something has to determine how often you hit the jedi. it can't just be random. so i ask everyone that says accuracy is not a factor, what does determine when you get a hit?



rail

"Well sir, although I may not agree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire/Peter Griffin
Kachada
Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:46 pm
#31

Right, Accuracy just determines if your shot hits the target or misses.

After a hit, the target has a chance to Dodge, Counterattack, Block, or for Jedi SaberBlock.

The thing is, that Jedi SaberBlock is so high, that even if you hit them time after time after time, they will continue to execute tehir saving move of "Saberblock" and take no damage.



Kachada
Master Rifleman of Bria
-------------------------------
Krakoa
Aspiring Ranger & Swordsman

SeveronDarkstar
Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:28 pm
#32

Dude, give up trying. Jedi's with maxed saber deflect 99% of the shots, and those that make it through, they heal up in a very short amount of time.


blizz000
Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:52 am
#33

My best laser rifle is 120-978 with a powerup. My best T21 is 225-690 with powerup. Which is better out of those two?
Waste93
Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:08 am
#34






CarbineShiba wrote:

Shooting an unarmored target with a t21 gives a 75% damage bonus, laser gives a 50% bonus against an unarmored target, a good damage sliced powered up T21 is usually better.





Not actually. The 25% bonus is like compound interest. Which means damage is 100%, 125%, 156%, and 195%.


As you can see the T21 does 95% more damage than an AP0 weapon and the Laser Rifle does 56% more damage.


However. He is talking about shooting player Jedi. Players are vulnerable to all damage types which means you lose all AP bonus vs an unarmored player.


So as someone else said, the DXR-6b is probably the best choice because of the higher accuracy on it.


As for Sabre Block. Accuracy has no effect on how often it goes off. It's completely dependent on the Jedi's skill as of right now.


Message Edited by Waste93 on 08-12-2004 01:12 PM



Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
Sotaudi
Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:51 am
#35







Kachada wrote:
Some people seem not to be wise to this, so I'll say it again.

Weapons get no Armor Piercing Bonus against a target not wearing Armor

Along those lines, I would highly reccomend that if fighting a Jedi solo, you may as well use Bio-Clothing instead of armor. Unless the Jedi has his own bodyguards, in which case by all means, armor away.




This has been said by a couple of people, but the statement is incorrect. Armor piercing bonuses against unarmored targets work exactly as they do against armored targets. There is a 25% cumulative damage bonus for every level of AP (the weapon's armor piercing value) over AR (the target's armor rating). The only exception is when a target is vulnerable to a damage type. Against vulnerable targets, both the target's armorrating and the weapon'sAP are ignored. That is, armor and resistance calculations are bypassed when the target is vulnerable. This means thecombat window damage is used for the actual damage and is not adjusted for armor (i.e., no AP bonus or penalty) or resists (since vunlerable = no resists) whether the weapon has a higher AP value than the target AR or a lower one.


It is imporant to understand this because it is not that AP does not work against unarmored targets. It is that AP is ignoredagainst vulnerable targets, and unarmored player characters are considered vulnerable to all damage types.


Thus, what you observe about the effects is true. You will not get an AP bonus against an unarmored player no matter what the AP value of the weapon, butyour analysis thatit isbecause AP does not work against unarmored targetsis incorrect. It works like it does against all AP vs. AR calculations when the target is vulnerable. Likewise, AP bonuses work just fine against unarmored NPCs and critters that have resists to your damage type. You will get the AP bonus when you use a weapon against them that has an AP rating.

Message Edited by Sotaudi on 08-13-2004 11:54 AM



Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



nikazza
Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:57 pm
#36

the only thing about jedi, is that they sometimes use shield generaters, and that is when you will be really happy you were using your t21 rather than your disrupter or your laser rifle. but other than that it is all about adding up the min and the max damage of you weapon and dividing it by 2. and which ever has the highest number is the best.



____Nikazza -DFR-__________________________________
FLURRYELDER JEDI
---Fleas arent just for Wookies---

Vendor: Kadaara 5850, 6300

NikaGarr - Trader (Domestics)
little-nikky - Bounty Hunter
Sotaudi
Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:40 am
#37







Kachada wrote:
Mind shot is a bleed. It does some initial damamge on impact, then slowly ticks away more damage over time.

Head shot is a big bad blast to the mindpool. Massive damage.

DXR-6b does less damage, and is only AP2 (but again that doesn't matter when fighting an unarmored jedi) but the accuracy mods on it are glorious. Mine is +117 to hit from ideal range, and I don't even have a really great one. If you're fighting a novice Jedi that hasn't brought up his defensive abilities, then by all means use the T21, but against a defender, the DXR-6b may be your only hope.




To expand on what Kachada is saying, the damage for Headshots and Mindshots are as follows:


Headshot1 1.5 times thedamage


Mindshot1Same initial damage as HS1 + bleed damage for 2 minutes.


Mindshot22.0 times thedamage + bleed damage for 3 minutes.


Headshot22.5 time thedamage


Headshot33.0 times damage


Bleed shots do an initial damage of the modifier indicated then, starting at 20 seconds after the initial hit,they will tick off a set percentage of the initial damage as bleed damage (6 ticks for Mindshot1 and 9 ticks for Mindshot2). The bleeds are smaller than the initial hit, but cumulatively along with the initial damage and assuming the bleed goes for the full duration, they can potentially do more overall damage than a single hit with Headshot3 in a long fight. So if the fight is expected to last a long while, despite the fact that bleeds are far less effective than they used to be, it can sometimes be wise to open with Mindshot1 and Mindshot2 (they currently still stack, apparently), then move to Headshots. Keep in mind, however, only one of each bleed shot will stick, so there is not much reason to shoot these more than once per targetexcept to reapply the bleed if it goes away or to try to improve the bleed tick. But additional hits from the same Mindshot will not add additional bleed timers.




Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



Sotaudi
Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:50 am
#38






Keeno_Kilimal wrote:

Headshot(1-3) reduces the Mind pool stats one shot at a time at different damage rates depending on the strength of the shot. Mindshot(1-2) reduces the Mind pool stats by using a bleed, which only needs to hit and stick once to your target. Once the bleed sticks to the target it will reduce the initial amount of damage from the target's Mind pool every few seconds until the bleed timer runs out. If you use Mindshot(1-2) along with Headshot(1-3) you will be able to take stronger targets out much faster and much more effectively.







It sounds like you are describing the way bleeds used to work. It used to be that bleeds would do no actual damage on the initial hit. The initial hit was used just to record the bleed damage. Then starting at 20 seconds and every 20 seconds there after, the bleed would tick of an amount of damage equal to the recordedinitial hit. Bleeds also used to be treated like the target was vulnerable, meaning armor and resists were ignored. Most of this does not now apply.


Ever since the bleed nerf, here is how it works now:


1. The initial hit will now do actual damage calculated as if it were a Headshot of that same damage multiplier (i.e., armor and resists are factored in).


2. At 20 seconds after the initial hit and every 20 seconds thereafter for the duration of the bleed (2 minutes for Headshot1, so 6 ticks, and 3 minutes for Headshot2, so 9 ticks), a smaller percentage of the initial hit is ticked off.





Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



StandUpWookie
Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:58 am
#39

I believe that the AP3 of the T-21 is ignored as the Jedi will not be wearing armor. Sounds stupid but its true.


That being said I would still go with the T-21, assuming you are Master Rifle with buffs/food/stats maxed for mind.


Sure the Laser can hit for more but it will often hit for less.


Mind Bleed has been reduced in power. If we had those uber 3k mind bleeds from like a year ago then maybe (if one landed) you would be ok using this attack.


BUT assuming the Jedi has all of his saber block skills you wont be hitting much of the time and as soon as he gets within melee (or throwing) distance you will be dead. There are always "what if" scenarios but the golden rule is pure range professions cannot do squat against a higher ranked Jedi.


SUwookie
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