Rifleman Archive

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Helios_SOEwrote:

So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.

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BruSwillis wrote:

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Darth_Spike wrote:

The Devs have CLEARLY indicated that Conceal Shot will be changed to check for the Coveredstate AND the Comoflauged state.

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Can you point me to this please?

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Sure - it was the quote YOU proviuded. They have stated in their docs that they want a COMMON ruleset, so all would therefor perform similarly - they are the same system instead of seperate ones

Helios_SOEwrote:

So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.

double post

sorry

Message Edited by Darth_Spike on 09-21-2005 05:40 PM

The only thing clearly stated is exactly what Helios wrote out there for you. Stop trying to interpret every little word, because you'll just drive yourself nuts doing it. Makes me feel like I'm in the Jedi forum.

ConcealShot - This ranged attack ability allows you to shoot while under cover with low probability of revealing your location.

But yes, any Ranger (or anyone else with x2xx Rifles) could use concealshot, because cover is in those same boxes.

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Shadow2k wrote:

The only thing clearly stated is exactly what Helios wrote out there for you. Stop trying to interpret every little word, because you'll just drive yourself nuts doing it. Makes me feel like I'm in the Jedi forum.

ConcealShot - This ranged attack ability allows you to shoot while under cover with low probability of revealing your location.

But yes, any Ranger (or anyone else with x2xx Rifles) could use concealshot, because cover is in those same boxes.

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Darth_Spike wrote:

Are you saying that you are going to coment on something or enter into a debate without reading anything I wrote becasue you have a problem with the color.

No, I just don't like to debate things bases on pure speculation derived from the interpretation of what should have been a very clear statement. Helios made a statement, and that's all you have to go on. What you are speculating has nothing to do with what he wrote.

It is the ONLY item in their CAN USE list. If there were 10 itemsthen I'd feel fine, but with only one item that lies outside their new system, WHY would they make their life harder by leaving it outside?

Here is the thing. It isn't outside their system. It's inside it. That's why it's in the "Can Use" list. It's outside of the "Can't Use" list. But they seem to feel that it has been balanced in such a way already that there is no reason to remove the use of it.

There is still the question of Cost versus Benefit. Rangers have 2 branches to help them achieve what we get in one skill. Sure, they could leave things as they are for now, but you know eventually the other 2 professions with Stealth will start to complain about what we get.

You are the only one bringing up where it comes in the Rifle tree. Nobody, not one other person, have I seen question it. So obviously it doesn't seem to be on the top of many people's minds right now.

As far as actually debating which is better, I'd sure as heck rather be able to stand up. Not to mention not having my cover be broken by any little thing that comes within 20m of me. I played with cloak the first day of the CU. Obviously with the new changes, it will be severely less powerful. But I'd still rather have cloak with the new rule set, which only takes 28 skill points to get, compared to cover, which takes50+, and requires that you crawl around on your belly and remain 20m away from everything you come across on your slow trek across the galaxy.

Ever crawled 200m under cover? I guarantee you that even with the worst snares, like the one they put on AI, you're still a hell of a lot slower than a cloaked Jedi will be.

Yes, that is exactly the point. That is why I asked the Rifle Correspondant, and not my next door neighbor or anyone else what the official stand is. What you or Bru says changes nothing when only the Dev answer has nay value. Ackehece said he was not 100% sure, and he had asked the Devs and has not received a response.

Everything is always subject to change in a game like this. But you're worried about a skill that nobody is even complaining about. Anyone with a level head saw that cloak was getting abused, and probably going to be addressed at some point. Same with many other skills. But if you want to sit and question every skill just because you can, then you're going to drive yourself nuts.

If this were the simple cut-and-dried situation you seem to think it is, then Ackehece would have come out immediately with an answer along hte lines of "nothing has changed", or he simply would never have responded. He did respond with a promise to find out, and his answer will end this pointless speculation on all out parts.

You ask a question, it's his job to find an answer. You can speculate as much as you want. Sure, it could change. But nothing they've stated has given us any reason to think that's the case.

Ahhhh, I see some of the confusion here. Do you think the "Common Ruleset" does not apply to us, mainly becasue we arent mentioned very clearly in the docs. In your perception, if they didn't mention us, then nothing is gonna change - in my perception, that means we are about to be a non-issue.

You point out to me what rule in the new Common Ruleset does not apply to us. They all do. Read them through again. Again...

Nothing in the "Common Ruleset" that was posted had anything to do with where the skill comes in your profession's trees, nor was there anything listed about cost vs benefit (forcecost or heps).

If the Dev desire is to have a "Common Ruleset", which they did say clearly, then all forms of stealth would have similar rules governing when stealth can start and stop. The Devs have been describing the general rules in a rather vauge way on the Ranger boards, and have a thread in the Jedi boards explaining to them how their skill is going to change. The point of my question in the OP was not to spawn any debate, just to get the official answer. Now you and Bru have provided insightful and intelligent opinions (I like to think I have as well) but our musings are POINTLESS. When we get some official response from the Devs we will all know.

You can ask for official words all day, on all sorts of things. But they have usually been fairly clear on what things will change, and what won't. Think about this. They talked about the Ranger changes, right? Then they went in depth a bit about how this would affect cloak. Now would have been the time to mention anything changing about the other skill that could have been affected, cover. The only thing mentioned was that it would have to adhere to the common ruleset (which it does already), and that /concealshot would still be able to be used...and it has to be used under cover, so nothing changes there.

Before, we had this limitied skill that had some utility to Bounty Hunters and was jsut part of the toolset of the Rifleman - no big deal. NOW it is becoming the central point of the Ranger Revamp. Ranger is a fairly neutral profession, as in not Ranged and not Meele. Someone that is a Stealth master would probaly WANT to be able to attack from Stealth in some manner. I can hear the complaints now: "I want to play like some ninja and attack with my sword, you are forcing me to use a rifle...blah, blah, blah"

Nobody was complaining about cover or conceal shot before. Now they are given another profession in which they can actually take the idea even further without being rifleman, and you think they will complain...now? They would have already complained far before now.

Conceal shot fits the Rifleman profession. That's why it is there. If they did cry about not being able to attack with their sword, know what they'd be told? Too bad, you can't, you need to use a ranged weapon. Just like we are told we can't have an armor break, or a root.

The skills are put in the specific profession to help define them better. That's part of what the CU was all about. That's why they are making these changes to Ranger. They won't care any more about Swordsman wanting a conceal type shot than they do about Swordsman wanting to be a viable BH template (not that they aren't, but they take serious hits to do be able to have both professions).

The professions are seperated and defined for a reason. Players can whine all they want. But I've not heard anyone asking for this to be honest, just more conjecture from you.

Like I said before, moving Conceal Shot out of our tree and into Ranger would allow a LOT of new and exciting template combinations, without necessarily gimping us Rifleman. They would have to replace an entire line of skills for us if the Devs remove Cover and Conceal Shot, 2 shots of some kind most likely. We end up getting something decent as a replacement, and Ranger becomes the Stealth master, and almost every professions would have a benefit from adding Ranger to the template.

Are you sure you're a Rifleman? You sound like a (soon to be) Ranger here trying to steal one of our profession's defining skills. They turned a Ranger into a Rogue. Not a Sniper. That's what a Rifleman is.

This is my meaningless speculation. I think losing Cover and Conceal shot could be a good thing if they replace it and a bad thing if they give us nothing. It is still meaningless until a Dev or Ackehece tells us what id really going to happen - change or no change. PLEASE, lets just stop with our speculation, and wait for what Ack or a Devs provides us

You're the only one speculating here. About moving skills to different professions now, no less, and calling it a good thing. All we're doing is telling you, that with what the Devs have stated, there has been no mention of any change so far. So stick to that...please. Until the Devs say something different.

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Shadow2k wrote:

Ugh...we done here yet?

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Ok, since you do not take a hint - If you are not a Dev or the Rifleman correspondant, then go somewher else. I asked questions to Ackehece, and he said he would look into it. He has already come back with more information, but stated that many of his questions are unanswered. I am sorry I am being rude, but this is a belabored debate of verbal diareha.

My conjecture is meaningless, and your need to continue rebuttal adds lenght to a thread that really doesnt need to be this long. You cannot answer my questions, your words are as meaningless as mine are. It is a fact - we are not "In the Know", so we should really just Shut Up.

Bottom line: What changes, if any, will be seen to Rifleman Cover and Conceal Shot due to the "Common Ruleset" of the Ranger Revamp? If you are not aDeveloper (or someone with a Red Name), or the Rifleman Correspondant named Ackehece, or another Correspondant, then please do not replay, as your words hold little value towards an actual answer.

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Ackehece wrote:

Not worth fighting over yet. So far I think we are the same but some things have been said in places most of you can't see that mean something could change... Am currently trying to pin em down and beat the answer out of them. As I get info I will pass it on.

also... darth... you should check what pronoun you use in relation to me

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