Rifleman Archive
Thread: Ackehece, question about the future of Rifleman Cover
well answer one is here:
Blixtev wrote:
Darth_Spike wrote:
Ackehece wrote:
well answer one is here:
Blixtev wrote:
So far, we're looking atmaking sure that the /CMSkill , /follow &/target commands won't work on hidden players. What else can you think of?
(yes, feel free to share that with your community - we're looking at fixing both sides of the hiding exploits)
Thanks for that Ack.
Perhaps I am the only one with other questions, but I'll ask them anyway:
Will we be requierd to use a HEP to be covered in a City, or use a Camo kit to Cover?
Will our Cover and their Camoflauge break under exactly the same conditions?
In the case of a MRifle and MRanger combo, will Cover provide anything of value or be a useless skill?
That kinda applies to dabblers as well, if we Rifleman dabble in Ranger or Rangers dabble in Rifleman to get Conceal shot, is Cover worth anything?
1) asked already about craftables for rifleman cover... no answer yet
2) it seems that they are implementing a bubble system which compares stealth vs breachers skill level - hopefully it will apply for rifleman but no idea as yet.
3) faster movement and a smaller bubble if you are a ranger, hopefully ability to attack under cover if rifleman
4) hopefully - they still have not said if conceal shot will remain as is.
BruSwillis wrote:
Darth_Spike wrote:
First I look at the differnce in the dabble-value. If another profession wanted to be able to hide themselves - why would they choose Ranger. It requires special equipment for them to hide and they cant move. If they want to move, it will cost another skill block, but for Rifleman, it is one skill block, and we can crawl(move). We also dont have a restriction on WHERE we Cover, it can be in the Wild or in an Urban environment. Why go Ranger when Rifleman x1xx gives you the same thing without the added costs?
You are kidding right?
You realise you are talking about two completely different skills and in no way would someone save points to have cover instead of going Ranger.
Let me explain why I think you are reading a completely different hymn book to me.
Riflemans Cover ability
This skill allows a Rifleman to blend in with the environment around him making him highly camouflaged in a stealth like state, unseen from NPC's, MOBs and other players. It has many limitations such as the only posture allowed while in Cover is a prone postion. Movement can be made but it is a very slow crawl. The main limitation is that only oneaction can be made while in a "Covered" state and that action is Conceal shot, where you can make a shot under cover of "Cover"
The main limitation of Cover is the fact that if any mob, NPC or player comes within (not sure the actual distance but I think it's roughly) 40ft of the Covered Rifleman, then Cover is broken and the Rifleman is visible by the mob, NPC or player. Note that in a heavily populated City, Cover is useless as NPC around the city stop the skill being used.
Current plans for Ranger
The camo skills of a ranger after the revamp will have the roll of the Ranger as a type of spy. He will have the ability (with the use of camo kits and gadgets) to roam in any environment in a stealth like manner, freely with little limitations (depending on his skill) The Ranger will have free movement and will be able to stealth past mobs, NPC's and Players to the extent that their skills will enable them to actually steal from the pockets of NPC's and eventually Players in game.
The limitations that we see with regard to Cover for a Rifleman will not be evident in the Ranger proffession as the main aim of the rangers skill is to freely move undiscovered by security to the point that even their armour certs will be changed to Recon for quickermovement.
Actually thinking about it, you are not reading a different hymn book, you are reading some foreign book from the other side of the World mate.
There's no way in the World that any sane SWG player who wants to have stealth skills would even contemplate giving up going for Ranger just because a Rifleman can crawl very slowly on his belly up to 40m away from any mob, NPC or player.
Take away cover, and conceal shot from me, and give me a 5x shot that can be fired 1x per second and I would be SO happy.
Give master commando's armorbreak and I wouldn't know what to do with myself.
Actualy, I know what I would do, I would get a 6 other Rifleman/Commando's, a MSL/MDOC, plus a MCM/MCarbs. Then I would go on the killing spree to end all killing sprees.
BruSwillis wrote:
Ohh and this has been posted
Now to me, that reads that ConcealShot isnt going anywhere. Im reading the "So far" comment to mean commands may be added to the new hiding/stealth system not that Conceal is being taken away.
Helios_SOEwrote:
So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.
So far, the only command that exists OUTSIDE the new hiding/stealth system that Jedi/Force Cloak and Ranger are a part of, is the Rifleman ConcealShot, and every other special will break you out.
They identified ONE skill that isnt already within their system that they like and will allow to be used. If they leave it in Rifleman, then ther ewill be a LOT of Rifleman that take Ranger and lots of Ranger that take Rifleman, but what advantage will there be to a Pistoleer or Carbineer, a Swordsman or TKA, or for that matter a Smuggler or Commando, to take Ranger?
If they move that single command to the Ranger tree in a branch that doesnt have a lot of abilities planned right now, they empower ALL Ranged professions that take Ranger to shoot while hidden. If they add a Meele version that is granted at the same tier, then they empower ALL Meele Professions to use Ranger to their advantage. If they allowed Force Choke (Master Powers) to be used while using Force Cloak (Force Powers x4xx) then they give Powers Jedi a clear alternative to Lightsabers, which many of them Jedi want.
So by moving Conceal Shot into Ranger, and simply making a Meele version that does the same amount of damage multiplier, and allowing an already existing Jedi skill to be usable, they open up the Stealth game to all Mundane Profesions, and give Jedi a reason to go Master Powers. This also would mean that there would be no reason to keep Cover in Rifleman, since Rifleman cant do anything with it, and lets them remove that line for something else. They would therefore not have to re-engineer Rifleman to fall within the same ruleset, saving them some programming time.
All they would have to do for Rifleman is give us 1 or2 new shots; something they already have coded that only requires a tweak to make stronger or weaker. Since the Devs already gave us long range crowd control as a secondary role, they could add a CC shot, like a short duration root to go along with the short duration snare we have...the code for rooting is already written and all they would have to do is adjust how long it works. Actually,I would bet money that we get a Mez, so we can hit all the Mobs that we dont want to run at us and then pick off our targets one at a time.I also wouldnt be suprised if we got an Agro-eliminator shot (usingthe code for Squad Leadersthat reduces Agro on a player), wasnt that Warning shot, something we had before? Adding a Mez or Root along with a Agro-be-gone shot solves our issue with Agro in PvE and gives us a method of keeping our target far away even in PvP.
In my mind, the Devs would make a lot more people happy by giving Ranger and Jedi the ability to attack while hidden, and keep Stealth ballance a 2 profession issue instead of a 3-profeson one. They would still claim victory since they would have given us skills to resolve some of our "Top" issues, Since almost every combat profesion would now have a chance to strike while hidden, Ranger would go from the bottom of the list to the top of the list of popular profesions. It would be kinda kewl in a way, since there would be Rifleman that take Ranger to do exactly what we do now, but there would also arise "Ninja" dudes..Pikeman or Swordsman that sneak up to you and have their weapon stuck in your gut before you know they were there.
When I started this thread I was fearful of losing Cover and Conceal shot, but right now I'm starting to think it could be a win-win situation for many professions including Rifleman if the Devs did take it away.
Darth_Spike wrote:
So by moving Conceal Shot into Ranger, and simply making a Meele version that does the same amount of damage multiplier, and allowing an already existing Jedi skill to be usable, they open up the Stealth game to all Mundane Profesions, and give Jedi a reason to go Master Powers. This also would mean that there would be no reason to keep Cover in Rifleman, since Rifleman cant do anything with it, and lets them remove that line for something else. They would therefore not have to re-engineer Rifleman to fall within the same ruleset, saving them some programming time.
You are missing the fact that cover and Conceal are done in a prone position making it a useless skill for melee, in fact any other profession apart from Rifleman.
This is why I believe it wont change in the way you discribe. You have to be prone to cover and proned and covered to use ConsealShot, therefore leaving it a Rifleman skill and not worth dabbling in. I can see Rangers using it, being stealthed, dropping to the ground in prone and using ConsealShot but then the question is, does the Rifleman rules apply and the inbound mob break cover when in range?
BruSwillis wrote:
Darth_Spike wrote:
So by moving Conceal Shot into Ranger, and simply making a Meele version that does the same amount of damage multiplier, and allowing an already existing Jedi skill to be usable, they open up the Stealth game to all Mundane Profesions, and give Jedi a reason to go Master Powers. This also would mean that there would be no reason to keep Cover in Rifleman, since Rifleman cant do anything with it, and lets them remove that line for something else. They would therefore not have to re-engineer Rifleman to fall within the same ruleset, saving them some programming time.
You are missing the fact that cover and Conceal are done in a prone position making it a useless skill for melee, in fact any other profession apart from Rifleman.
This is why I believe it wont change in the way you discribe. You have to be prone to cover and proned and covered to use ConsealShot, therefore leaving it a Rifleman skill and not worth dabbling in. I can see Rangers using it, being stealthed, dropping to the ground in prone and using ConsealShot but then the question is, does the Rifleman rules apply and the inbound mob break cover when in range?
Can you point me to this please?
Darth_Spike wrote:
The Devs have CLEARLY indicated that Conceal Shot will be changed to check for the Coveredstate AND the Comoflauged state.
Darth_Spike wrote:
BruSwillis wrote:
Ohh and this has been posted
Now to me, that reads that ConcealShot isnt going anywhere. Im reading the "So far" comment to mean commands may be added to the new hiding/stealth system not that Conceal is being taken away.
Helios_SOEwrote:
So far, the only command we have in the can-use list for the new hiding/stealth sub-system (of which ForceCloak is now a part of) is the Rifleman ConcealShot. Everything else combat-related (including heals) tends to break you out, at the moment.
Ok, I interpret that differntly. This is how I interpret that statement:
So far, the only command that exists OUTSIDE the new hiding/stealth system that Jedi/Force Cloak and Ranger are a part of, is the Rifleman ConcealShot, and every other special will break you out.
They identified ONE skill that isnt already within their system that they like and will allow to be used.
Man...I can't even bring myself to read through all that green text. You're over-analyzing things. Look here at the original statement. They have Conceal Shot in their CAN USE list for the NEW system. In common terms, that specific action conforms to the new system, period.
Cover already conforms to all the rule sets they have set out. The only questionable one would be the lack of a snare, which is self-imposed by our need to be prone, and more restrictive than any snare in the game. Hell, you have to stand up first before you can even heal (not that you could heal while under cover, but you get the idea).
What you are talking about here as worrying you has nothing to do at all with the new common rules they are putting in place. You are pondering over how early the skill is gained, what advantages it has over others, and equipment needed to do it. None of those are even mentioned by them as far as having it be a universal type thing.
Rifleman are the only ones that can have their cloaking ability broken by all sorts of different things, from trying to launch a seeker droid, to merely having a nuna walk within 20m of us. The other two professions with stealth do not have any such obstacles...but for their advantage of having a more reliable form of stealth, they gain a weakness (force cost/whatever the hell the electronic ranger thing is).
I really don't care if conceal is moved up into the higher tiers, but I really doubt anyone would be spending 20+ skill points merely for the sake of being able to crawl on their bellies undetected. I don't know anyone that dabbles for it now, no clue why you'd think leaving it as is would change that at all. Most players that use cover are typically BH's camping out for Jedi, that usually have multiple trees of Rifleman, if not Master.
Darth_Spike wrote:
Dude, there really is no reason to be insulting.
Sorry mate, didnt mean to come across as insulting, just wanted to point out how I was reading the info which was differing from your view.
Thanks for the chat though, sorry if I offended you.