Rifleman Archive

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Morath360 wrote:

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Sotaudi wrote:

Here is something you need to consider. If it was the intent of the design of the game for people to acquire professions at will (i.e., without working for the XP), then they would have no XP system, and gaining new masteries would simply be a matter of reallocating your limited skill points similar to the way you allocate HAM stats.

Also, while SOE has apparently decided they will not enforce it, AFK macroing is against the EULA.It specifically saysyou"may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play."

And besides, how does someone else getting XP that they did not earn not affect other people's game play? Take two people. They each spend exactly the same amount of time at the keyboard as the other. They both work on the same profession (rifleman), and they both go out to hunt. One does AFK macro grinding and one does not, sothe latteris a 2 1 2 1 rifleman, and the other is a Master. What is going to happen when they run into each other and start shooting at the same MOB? Who is going to cause the most damage and, therefore, going to getthe most XP (XP, by the way, he no longer needs) and who is going to get whatever loot is on the kill?

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While this is well thought out, there are some things to consider as well.. First, we simply can't play the intent card because of 2 reasons. Intentions change and we don't actually know what the intentions were. Second, I could say the same about macro's. Macro's were "intended" to automate the game. If I put the work into "ingame" macros, then I should be able to use them.

Let me make one thing clear as did the person I ageed with. Loot stealing is not the same as xp grinding. I am against some guy going to the geo caves and running afk macros to get loot. This really does affect others and is not a worthless time sink.

Your example above sets up the situation from the loot grabbing aspect and then you turn it around to apply to xp. I take issue with this. Why would someone set up an xp macro and keep it running after they are master? I'm not sayingto do that. I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone tha comes near me out in the middle of no where and tries to grind in the exact same location.

Also, 2 more things to consider that makes it more fair. There is no way an afk macro grinder can keep up with a real live person time for time. So really the "earn" argument is somewhat weakend if you consider that. Second, I have already ground rifle, It is my opinion that I shouldn't have to regrind it to get it back. Again just an unnecessary time sink. I have already earned and learned it, I should get it back without the stupid xp grind...

I can't comment on EULA too much, but we both know that lots of legal disclaimers, rules, and regsare put into every document that are never acted upon nor planned to be acted on. Don't you know the lawyers need to justify their existence.LOL..

Anyway nice post man..

Message Edited by Morath360 on 06-18-2004 12:55 PM

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I disagree. Intent is everything. You cannot judge what a rule is meant to control without judging the intent of the rule. Otherwise, all you do is sitting around arguing about the meaning of "is." Looking at what the intent was behind the rule makes it so that unfair loopholes are not justified by "well then they should have said that." The EULA is clear in its intent. They did not want people using either outside or ingame macoring to allow the computer to play itself. AFK combat macro grinding clearly does this. SOE may have given up trying to stop it for fear of losing customers, but that does not mean the intent of the rule was wrong or just something to give lawyers a reason to exist. It is completely justifiable, as I pointed out. AFK macro grinding for XPdoes hurt people.

But you seem to havemissed the point. My examples were not about people out-macroing each other. The point is that XP gained when you are at the keyboard is XP you earned. Thus, my example contrasted two people who were at the keyboard the same amount of time and who theoretically would have "earned" the same amount of XP in doing so. In that case, they should be equal in skill, so when theymeet and actually compete directly(i.e., not using macros),they should have an equal chance to kill the same target or should have an equal chance to kill each other in PvP. But the AFK macro grinder getsto spend unearned XP on skillthat give him an advantage over his "peer." And when the AFK XP grinder gains the rank of Master before he earns it, he competesequally against people who, by rights, should still be able to beat him. The person with whom you agreed stated that he did not think it was anyone else's business because it did not hurt anybody. But clearly it does. If you compete using skills you did not earn, you gain an advantage over those who should be your peers, and you get to stand asan equal with those who should, at that point, have superior skills. Either way, you are effectively taking from them bothusing skills you did not earn.

You argument that an AFK grinder cannot "keep up with a real live person time for time" has no weight. I already pointed out how it gives and an advantage when they meet face to face, but if you are talking about the fact that a real live person can out kill an AFK grinder, that is true. But so what? If I come up on a static spawn where an AFK grinder is, I still loose kills that I would have otherwise gotten if the character, like the player "controlling him," was not there. That means I lose loots and XP to someone who is not doing anything to earn them and who may well be asleep at the time. How does the fact that I am more likely to kill stuff more efficiently than you while you are AFK justify the fact that you are taking things that you did not earn?

Also, you said you did not have much sympathy for people who came up on you out in the wilderness. I can only presume that you feel this way because you feelthat you have a right to the spawn because you were there first. Is not that a bit hypocritical to rely in the idea that courtesy dictates that the person who got there first gets first rights to it without also recognizing that courtesy also dictates that you share and take turns? The problem is that AFK macro grinding for XP locks down a static spawn for hours on end, meaning no one else gets a turn unless the person gets killed. What gives you that right?

Maybe it would be better if, once you earned a rank, you could freely drop it or pick it up within the confines of the Skill point system, but the fact is the design of the game does not allow for that. I could guess any number of reasons. There isthe cold, hard reasoning that games need some structure and limits to force people to choose wisely. There is alsothe possibility that it may cause all sorts of programming and database problems if people could change classes on a whim. But regardless of the reasons, that is the way the game is structured. And knowing that, you made the choice to give up Rifleman. While it may be a pain to get back XP you feel you aleady earned, now that you have more experience, it will not be nearly as hard to get it back. But even if it was, you did make the choice.