Rifleman Archive
Thread: Combat log files for pvp and pve (please read for testing purposes)
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Geddeo
Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:01 am
#14
Well, I got visited by a bh last night and have a ton of combat spam info in my log (if it isstill there when I log in). Anyone figure out how to post the combat spam to a text or rtf file yet?
Thailzam
Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:51 am
#15
Ackehece, I will try to get some friends together and do some testing. I'll let you know if I am able to or not.
Va-Mei
Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:32 pm
#16
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Ackehece wrote:
Ackehece wrote:
So can I and so can the devs say this should lead to this but it does not neccesarily occur. The devs believe we are powerful enough and that they are getting what they expect from us. I otoh want to have undenieable proof that what some of us are saying is true... we are underpowered. Currently they disagree - most heartly in fact. Most of the player body also believes rifles is overpowered (check the profession stats... how many people are rifleman vs any other profession)
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IMHO...
The accuracy and range that you get from rifles makes a great foundation for any ranged template. Pair Rifleman's damage and range with the effects from other ranged professions and you get the ability to control the flow combat over a great range, our issue is that on their own our specials are sorely lacking. Cover, Conceal & Snipe are all special use attacks that are rarely used in combat. Headshot takes a back seat to both Legshot and Critical. Startle can be usefull, but is no better than any other daze attack. Kneecap is of almost no use at all since our movement encumberance is so high. We have no area attack, no kd and no root. Carbines have a better DPS than we do, and both Pistols and Carbs beat us on action costs. Using a Rifle also insures that your action timers will recycle far slower. In close quarters a player with a heavy rifle can't react to the flow of combat as fast as a carbine or pistol can, meaning we miss that all important heal or defensive shot.
(I'm not suggesting it be done, just making my point) IF signature attacks had to be performed with their native weapon, there'd be far fewer people looking to add Rifles to their template. Some would still want Rifles for the general ranged accuracy we get, but they'd propably just dabble in the Sniping line. Alone, Rifles can really dish out the damage to a target in a bad situation, but it has no ability to create that situation. Other ranged professions have the ability to create the situation, react to the situation, and take advantage of it.
The devs might do well to watch how most 'Rifleman' really approach an open field battle. I'm betting what they'd see from most of us is BHs, Carbineers & Pistoleers with extra accuracy and carrying big guns, not the stealthy long range Rifleman they designed. lol, BHs aside, when was the last time you successfully used cover in setting up an attack? When was the last time you wanted to? I really would like to play a longball rifleman, but the pace of battle and a 65-80m range really doesn't allow for it. How long does it take for a Swordsman to cross the 45m between 'I can barely hit him' and 'This is gonnahurt'?
The same can be said for most PvE too. What do Rifleman bring to most PvE, where all that matters is pouring raw damage into a target until it's dead and moving on to the next one? Accuracy, ie. more damage. Aside from Headshot (debateable), what specials do Rifleman offer that are effective in mowing down pickets?
I'm not sure that showing the Devs a series of logs is really going to make your point for you. It's not our damage that's lacking, or even our weapons, so much as therange required to actually apply our signature attacks.
AxilX
Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:51 pm
#17
Shysty wrote:
An assumption like master defender running aura is huge. Having a jedi tell you his template, food strategy, and defensive SEA/BE clothes combination is going be rare. The data you compile on this is going to be heavily skewed and the proof will not be strong enough.
I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from trying this, but you may just want to take a look at other ranged weapons. we can't compare rifles to any rmelee weapons period. We should be outdamaged by melee professions. The damage benefit of fighting toe to toeshould far outweigh our 65 meter bufferzone.
The direction this analysis should go is comparing Single Ranged Elite professions using CAPPED ranged weapons. Being outdamaged by a carbineer or pistoleer is what should be considered broken. Sure we have a high damage cap(1183) but the combination of speed and damage with the accuracy modifier should be higher than any other ranged profession. just my 2 cents.
Perhaps, but a melee unit running CoB or a jedi running Aura is not... almost everyone without a ranged weapon in thier hand has a macro giving them +500 defense.
Were we able to maintain range, i might agree with you here, but we won't for long, as we snare ourselves. Against jedi with forcerun, even high end confine and control templates have no way of keeping range.. and that's most any jedi with a little bit of sense. Mind you, i'm not comparing us to jedi here, but us to melee fighting jedi... they do so far far better, and when such a large percentage of PvP'ers are jedi, that is significant.
Well i agree this is one of our major issues...Carbiner and Pistoleer at least have some limited utility in certain templates.. Rifles have nearly none. Range as a whole has no use as far as damage goes however, there are some decent control shots in other professions, but that's it.
InspGadgt
Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:56 pm
#18
How do we change the combat screen to show time stamps? Where do we find the log file itself?
Ackehece
Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:58 pm
#19
InspGadgt wrote:
How do we change the combat screen to show time stamps? Where do we find the log file itself?
under ctrl+o there should be a function to turn on time stamps
check your combat tab on your chat bar - it logs everything you do (well for about 10 mins)
InspGadgt
Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:55 pm
#20
ok cool...i was hoping it dumped it to a text file I could pull up somewhere
Va-Mei
Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:56 pm
#21
After the post I made above, I realized I came off more than a bit negative, and offered very little in the way of anything constructive. Hoping to set that right, I set out to pull together a template that really showcases my point. I think I've found it.
This is not a MRifles template. It's point is to show what can be done if you are willing to pass on the Rifleman tag, and why it really does need some help. The template I came to was MCarb, MPist, MMark, 4000Rifles, 0220Medic. It has blinding speed, great combat control, fearsome accuracy, very effective use of nearly any ranged weapon, and a choice in fully certed armor. An MDef/MSab I was dueling to test this said that he'd never had anyone consistently hit him that hard or that fast.
It has 2 real short comings in my eyes; no TN, and weak healing. Both can be taken care of with BE, food or attachments.
Here's what the template offers without any attachments, buffs, or bonuses:
Carbines: Speed 105, Accuracy 315, MDefense 175, RDefense 190
Pistols: Speed 100, Accuracy 290, MDefense 185, RDefense 200
Rifles: Speed 85, Accuracy 335, MDefense 155, RDefense 170
Pistols: Speed 100, Accuracy 290, MDefense 185, RDefense 200
Rifles: Speed 85, Accuracy 335, MDefense 155, RDefense 170
Damage Attacks:
Adv Rapid, Adv Quick Draw, Imp Head, Imp Leg, Imp Body, Imp Sniper, Imp Scatter, Lethal and of course
Adv Rapid, Adv Quick Draw, Imp Head, Imp Leg, Imp Body, Imp Sniper, Imp Scatter, Lethal and of course
Ranged & Placed
AOE Damage:
Imp Full Auto, Imp Fan
Imp Full Auto, Imp Fan
Effects & Control:
Adv Suppression, Adv Stopping, Adv Firearm Strike, Imp Charge, Imp Crippling, Imp Disarming, Imp Burst, Aim, Intimidate, Warning
Adv Suppression, Adv Stopping, Adv Firearm Strike, Imp Charge, Imp Crippling, Imp Disarming, Imp Burst, Aim, Intimidate, Warning
The main weapon I've been using while playing that template is this E11 MkII Carbine:
Dmg 424-1061, Spd 2.2, Acc 16, Wnd 28.75%, SAC 73
Custom-80%: 2% speed, 5% Crit Hit
BDps 336.83 Unpup'd
Dmg 424-1061, Spd 2.2, Acc 16, Wnd 28.75%, SAC 73
Custom-80%: 2% speed, 5% Crit Hit
BDps 336.83 Unpup'd
With a mild speed powerup and 17 points of speed attachments, I have a ModDPS of 740 and a speed of 1.0.
I use a good strong ALR when I need more range, and a solid FwFWG5 to regen action or for close in kinetic. I'm a bit slow with the rifle compared to most master rifle templates, but I think you'll agree I've got accuracy to stand with the best of them. For pure damage over time, I'll putthis character and his carbine head to head with any Rifleman out there. For all around combat effectivness, the Rifleman might as well stay home.
I use a good strong ALR when I need more range, and a solid FwFWG5 to regen action or for close in kinetic. I'm a bit slow with the rifle compared to most master rifle templates, but I think you'll agree I've got accuracy to stand with the best of them. For pure damage over time, I'll putthis character and his carbine head to head with any Rifleman out there. For all around combat effectivness, the Rifleman might as well stay home.
When it comes to full scale PvP combat, I can Root, KD, Snare, Intimidate, Daze, reduce defenses, Stun... If I don't have a solid target for states, I can pick a single target and lay into it with combos of Leg, Head, Ranged & Placed shots depending on how much action I want to turn into damage. Lacking a single target that needs to die, I can hose the entire field by alternating Full Auto with Fan, tossing in Adv Suppression once in a while just for flavor.
By comparison (Head Shot aside), the Rifleman specials are difficult to use in the game we have, or in the case of Startle, are little or no different from what is offered to many other professions.
...In many cases the time lost to keep ImpAim running isn't worth the shots lost to the zip bar, and even then it won't offset the effect of AdvCOB. I won't get into the crippling snare that comes with it...
...Cover is only useful over 60% of our range. Inside that we're revealed. Cover is also nearly useless at any event with more than 8 players to a side, as un-grouped allies will reveal you. BH v Jedi aside, I have a hard time thinking of many timesCover has been especially useful.
...Conceal is only useful when Cover applies, and then only as an opening shot or 2 to warm up the fight or topull a single target from a pack. Due to it's low DPS, in most cases a more powerful opening is far more desirable.
...By the numbers, Sniper is effective for 70% of our range, but inside 30-35m the target will probably have closed the range to 20m before the zip bar finishes. As with Cover & Conceal, this is a dificult special to use effectivly. You need a target that will hold still for a bit, will be greatly injured by the single attack, and warrents a single massive strike over several smaller but more effective shots.
...The long range offered to Rifleman is offset by the slow movement rate were forced to, and negated by the fact that anyone can use our best weapon.
...In many cases the time lost to keep ImpAim running isn't worth the shots lost to the zip bar, and even then it won't offset the effect of AdvCOB. I won't get into the crippling snare that comes with it...
...Cover is only useful over 60% of our range. Inside that we're revealed. Cover is also nearly useless at any event with more than 8 players to a side, as un-grouped allies will reveal you. BH v Jedi aside, I have a hard time thinking of many timesCover has been especially useful.
...Conceal is only useful when Cover applies, and then only as an opening shot or 2 to warm up the fight or topull a single target from a pack. Due to it's low DPS, in most cases a more powerful opening is far more desirable.
...By the numbers, Sniper is effective for 70% of our range, but inside 30-35m the target will probably have closed the range to 20m before the zip bar finishes. As with Cover & Conceal, this is a dificult special to use effectivly. You need a target that will hold still for a bit, will be greatly injured by the single attack, and warrents a single massive strike over several smaller but more effective shots.
...The long range offered to Rifleman is offset by the slow movement rate were forced to, and negated by the fact that anyone can use our best weapon.
I really think the Devs need to re-think Rifleman's purpose within the game, and the tools we have to accomplish that mission. If we are to remain Nukers, how is a pure Rifleman intended to accomplish that?
...Are we supposed to be a 1st striker? The Cover, Conceal & Snipe abilities would tend to suggest that were supposed to fire the opening shots of a sneak attack, but given the range restrictions we have, even an 80m attack would leave our main force far behind us if they are to remain unseenprior toPvP. In PvE, the damage ofa Sniperattack is greatly offset by the health of all but the lowest level content.
...A dealer of sustained raw damage? With great accuracy numbers and a good min/max damage range, were not bad at doing this, but most other professions can out damage us through speed. We can frontload a lot of damage, but the longer the target takes to kill, themore the job is suited to someone else. The agro system is also not conducive to our being the primary damage dealers since even a Swordsman/Doc has to work hard to keep the agro from a Rifleman or Carbineer.
...Or is our job to deliver the kill shot to a softened target? This is how I often find myself fighting in both PvP and PvE, tabbing through all the targets, tapping them all with ranged/placed until I find one that's ripe for the picking. Then I'll hit it hard with everything I have. Using tab to run through the targets isn't exactly the best way to go since you'll end up targeting things you really don't want to shoot at yet or things that are 150m away, but it works.
...Are we supposed to be a 1st striker? The Cover, Conceal & Snipe abilities would tend to suggest that were supposed to fire the opening shots of a sneak attack, but given the range restrictions we have, even an 80m attack would leave our main force far behind us if they are to remain unseenprior toPvP. In PvE, the damage ofa Sniperattack is greatly offset by the health of all but the lowest level content.
...A dealer of sustained raw damage? With great accuracy numbers and a good min/max damage range, were not bad at doing this, but most other professions can out damage us through speed. We can frontload a lot of damage, but the longer the target takes to kill, themore the job is suited to someone else. The agro system is also not conducive to our being the primary damage dealers since even a Swordsman/Doc has to work hard to keep the agro from a Rifleman or Carbineer.
...Or is our job to deliver the kill shot to a softened target? This is how I often find myself fighting in both PvP and PvE, tabbing through all the targets, tapping them all with ranged/placed until I find one that's ripe for the picking. Then I'll hit it hard with everything I have. Using tab to run through the targets isn't exactly the best way to go since you'll end up targeting things you really don't want to shoot at yet or things that are 150m away, but it works.
What tools do I think Rifleman could use to do the job as I see it?
In it's role as damage dealer, a pure Rifleman could really use a second primary damage attack. Something on par with Head/Leg/Crit would greatly add to a rifleman's short term DPS, and would be consistent with the theory that Rifleman can deal huge damage... as long as we have action.
A minor AOE similar to the narrow arc Sprayshot would add to our damage dealing potential without adding greatly to our crowd control.
Both of these changes can be easily accomplished by dabbling in another profession, but spending 30 or more skill points to do it really limits any other choices.
An Advanced Aim with a longer duration, eased restrictions or stronger effect might be something worth looking into. With a little love, Aim could become a far more useful tool.
Giving the T21 an advantage over the ALR would probably be the best leg up Rifleman could get, short of nerfing the rest of the game around us. An increase in the damage range enough to really get any notice is unlikely, and changing the SAC would be inconsistent with Rifles, but it needs something over the commonly available ALR.
A longer range for the T21 would be a huge change that would add to theutility of our Cover, Conceal & Snipe abilities, but would run afoul with he same GCW turret issues as the long range arms, and compounded with arms might push the game beyond it's limits.
What if it had a native de-buff to the target similar to Warning shot? 1v1 this wouldn't make Rifleman that much more powerful, but as a support weapon for a combat team... Think of it as an intimidation factor, players ducking under the fireof a feared weapon.
If the Devs are dead set against giving us a bone, would altering the damage range and adding Elemental to bring it on par with the HLR, and giving the T21 a scope option be game breaking?
TheLastV8
Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:04 pm
#22
If Rifleman does get a boost. How about if we are "aiming" it acts like SOB/Aura arnt on?
Message Edited by TheLastV8 on 10-06-2005 08:04 PM
xakia
Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:28 pm
#23
Agree
We are already snared when we equip our weapon. We are basically rooted when we use aim and thats AFTER the long zipbar animation.
Now my prior job required carrying a rifle with me at all times and I was definately able to move about without being snared. It was the tripoded marine sniper that took 3 men to setup that proved to be a weapon hinderance and that thing would kill you miles away!
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